Coronavirus

[Stebo]

1 hour ago, Jonger said:

This has little to do with the masks for me. This about limiting business activity and injecting fear into society for something very few need to fear. 

Yeah for you until an outbreak happens in your county. It is a matter of time before it happens. Unlike the UP your county actually has people, just like Ingham County and that bar is now the source of nearly 100 cases in a week. 

[beavis1729]

8 hours ago, nwohweather said:

Unabridged capitalism always works. It’s why we have an economy worth $21.5 Trillion, 25% of the entire world’s economy with 5% of its population. There’s really no safety net for small businesses as you have to have outputs, and that’s what is going wrong here. I know this is a left leaning forum but I can’t deny the education I’ve gotten since earning a business degree in college, it’s staggering to see the raw efficiency in our country as opposed to Europe.

But living in wide open Charleston I’m gonna tell you by and large no one cares about this pandemic. Just tons of vacationers are flocking these states, crowding places and taking a vacation from wearing a mask. I’m interested to see if a national law would work, it’d help us out down here a lot.

When saying that unabridged capitalism always works...who does it work for? It works for people who are more educated, have better skills, and build up money early in their lives to then take advantage of compound interest. I happen to be one of those people, and I suppose I should be thankful in some way...but does it work for the environment? No. Does it work for people with fewer skills and lower education? No. Capitalism with careful, consistent, and very strong environmental regulation with a big safety net is the happy medium, as it balances the preservation of freedom, protecting nature, and stops people from competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism is one reason we have such a toxic political culture and toxic social media, and horribly inequitable health care outcomes.

 

People’s value should not be tied to their economic value. 
 

What is the societal and cultural benefit of a high GDP? Everyone assumes this is the ultimate goal...but why? I would trade a huge portion of the country’s GDP for a bit more of the “good” things that I listed above, spread across everyone. We have to stop fighting and competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism encourages this fighting, and it just isn’t good. Maybe it was good in the industrial revolution, but now other countries want to industrialize like the US did...but the global environment can’t handle it. I am not talking about climate change specifically; I am talking about air pollution, ocean pollution and the great Pacific Ocean garbage patch, plastics, habitat destruction, etc. These are the serious conversations that world leaders need to have...instead of encouraging policies which grow the economy at all costs. In order to strike the right balance, personal freedoms need to be restricted somewhat. Of course people don’t like that...and I understand that...but we have to concede that my and your individual best interest doesn’t always align with the earth’s best interest. Why are we so afraid to have this conversation at a national and global level??

[Guest ovweather]

30 minutes ago, beavis1729 said:

When saying that unabridged capitalism always works...who does it work for? It works for people who are more educated, have better skills, and build up money early in their lives to then take advantage of compound interest. I happen to be one of those people, and I suppose I should be thankful in some way...but does it work for the environment? No. Does it work for people with fewer skills and lower education? No. Capitalism with careful, consistent, and very strong environmental regulation with a big safety net is the happy medium, as it balances the preservation of freedom, protecting nature, and stops people from competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism is one reason we have such a toxic political culture and toxic social media, and horribly inequitable health care outcomes.

 

People’s value should not be tied to their economic value. 
 

What is the societal and cultural benefit of a high GDP? Everyone assumes this is the ultimate goal...but why? I would trade a huge portion of the country’s GDP for a bit more of the “good” things that I listed above, spread across everyone. We have to stop fighting and competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism encourages this fighting, and it just isn’t good. Maybe it was good in the industrial revolution, but now other countries want to industrialize like the US did...but the global environment can’t handle it. I am not talking about climate change specifically; I am talking about air pollution, ocean pollution and the great Pacific Ocean garbage patch, plastics, habitat destruction, etc. These are the serious conversations that world leaders need to have...instead of encouraging policies which grow the economy at all costs. In order to strike the right balance, personal freedoms need to be restricted somewhat. Of course people don’t like that...and I understand that...but we have to concede that my and your individual best interest doesn’t always align with the earth’s best interest. Why are we so afraid to have this conversation at a national and global level??

We are afraid to have that conversation because sadly many people are selfish and lack common sense. Money and power means so much more to many than things like the environment, pollution, habitat destruction / overdevelopment, etc. Look at how lazy so many people are to recycling. Asking people to recycle is like asking them to give up a kidney. And then the recycling market is driven by profits, just like everything else.

Sure, we all need money to survive in today’s world, but just how much do we really need? If people would stop living above their means; stop having kids they can’t afford; simply use common sense in their lives, the world would be so much better off. It really is that simple. But people want it all, no matter the cost.

This is great: https://portal.clubrunner.ca/5453/stories/an-obituary-printed-in-the-london-times

 

[nwohweather]

When saying that unabridged capitalism always works...who does it work for? It works for people who are more educated, have better skills, and build up money early in their lives to then take advantage of compound interest. I happen to be one of those people, and I suppose I should be thankful in some way...but does it work for the environment? No. Does it work for people with fewer skills and lower education? No. Capitalism with careful, consistent, and very strong environmental regulation with a big safety net is the happy medium, as it balances the preservation of freedom, protecting nature, and stops people from competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism is one reason we have such a toxic political culture and toxic social media, and horribly inequitable health care outcomes.

 

People’s value should not be tied to their economic value. 

 

What is the societal and cultural benefit of a high GDP? Everyone assumes this is the ultimate goal...but why? I would trade a huge portion of the country’s GDP for a bit more of the “good” things that I listed above, spread across everyone. We have to stop fighting and competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism encourages this fighting, and it just isn’t good. Maybe it was good in the industrial revolution, but now other countries want to industrialize like the US did...but the global environment can’t handle it. I am not talking about climate change specifically; I am talking about air pollution, ocean pollution and the great Pacific Ocean garbage patch, plastics, habitat destruction, etc. These are the serious conversations that world leaders need to have...instead of encouraging policies which grow the economy at all costs. In order to strike the right balance, personal freedoms need to be restricted somewhat. Of course people don’t like that...and I understand that...but we have to concede that my and your individual best interest doesn’t always align with the earth’s best interest. Why are we so afraid to have this conversation at a national and global level??

Well this is the Democrat vs Republican debate lol. To each their own but that’s what the voting booth is for

[purduewx80]

4 hours ago, Stebo said:

All this bleating about the economy is pointless. The argument is about wearing a mask, if you want to bring the economy up and why stuff is remaining closed, it is because people refuse to wear masks causing us not to relax the curve. It is really simple, wear a damn mask.

This was the entire point of my so-called "baiting". Thank you for explicitly stating it.

Wear a mask. Normalize it until this is over.

edit to add that opening the entire economy up now is obviously ill-advised after the recent surge in cases. 

[RobertSul]

2 hours ago, Jonger said:

This has little to do with the masks for me. This about limiting business activity and injecting fear into society for something very few need to fear. 

So the Republican governors of Florida and Texas closed all their bars for something that very few need to fear? 

[mississaugasnow]

Ontario has 14.5M people and were now down under 200 a day with 30K a day testing and death rate dropping as well. Looking at States with similar population and the numbers are massive. 

The historical partnership and historical linkages of how our two countries grew is interesting and were seeing it play it out in trust of government and perceived freedoms. 

Sault St Marie Ontario and surrounding towns- The government has asked us to shut down and slow the spread so lets close and do our part. The government has asked us to wear masks and we should listen. I was in a Tim Hortons in Northern Ontario recently and they werent messing around with the 5 people in a store at a time. They asked us to wait outside and we did, when we were in and more people came in they asked again and without fighting it they waited outside. 

Sault St Marie Michigan and surrounding Northern MI- Nope shutdown is dumb, wearing a mask is dumb, the government is trying to crush my small business and if I want to open I will. 

 

Not my business though on how you guys want to fight covid on your side of the border. Its just interesting to see an imaginary line we drew in the sand and the corresponding outlooks on society that follow. 

 

Edit**** Ontario has also really dropped the ball regarding LTC and the investigations and possible criminal charges coming against some will be interesting. So we are not perfect, far from it. 

[purduewx80]

3 hours ago, Jonger said:

This has little to do with the masks for me. This about limiting business activity and injecting fear into society for something very few need to fear. 

I caught it back in March when I still lived in NYC, most likely from community spread. At the time, it was unclear what was going on because we weren't aware of all the symptoms people were experiencing. Never had a fever or cough. I was fortunate to not have it as bad as some, but I was still sick for almost three weeks. The most alarming symptom for me was having zero sense of smell. My boyfriend did not fare as well, but he made it out ok, too.

I'm still wearing a mask when in public since we don't actually know how long immunity lasts, or if everyone even becomes immune.  It feels important to normalize wearing masks in public because that is literally our best bet to get past this. It's unwise to assume you won't catch it in your small towns (which by the way are adjacent to busy interstates with restaurants and gas stations you may use, no?), especially with folks traveling more now. 

The only thing I fear personally is further economic collapse caused by the entirely preventable spread of this virus. I suspect we should remain concerned about our shitty healthcare system becoming overwhelmed, too.

[nwohweather]

This was the entire point of my so-called "baiting". Thank you for explicitly stating it.
Wear a mask. Normalize it until this is over.
edit to add that opening the entire economy up now is obviously ill-advised after the recent surge in cases. 

This is what you don’t understand though. None of you are wrong about wearing the mask. The issue is the lockdowns were the equivalent of us all being grounded. What it has led to is people just not giving a bleep anymore.

The lockdowns were so severe and changed our lives so deeply that it fatigued people. That’s where all these governors failed, they got too strict and now people are just over it.

By and large Americans HATE micromanagement more than any population on Earth. That’s why no one is reacting to this right and we’ve got Karen’s flipping out at Kroger because they can’t enter without a mask

[A-L-E-K]

Lol

[purduewx80]

2 minutes ago, nwohweather said:

This is what you don’t understand though. None of you are wrong about wearing the mask. The issue is the lockdowns were the equivalent of us all being grounded. What it has led to is people just not giving a bleep anymore.

The lockdowns were so severe and changed our lives so deeply that it fatigued people. That’s where all these governors failed, they got too strict and now people are just over it.

By and large Americans HATE micromanagement more than any population on Earth. That’s why no one is reacting to this right and we’ve got Karen’s flipping out at Kroger because they can’t enter without a mask

oh i definitely understand, but what can i say? freedom isn't free. 

all of what you describe is more a disruption to capitalism than anything else. it's what we have to figure out how to deal with now.

[nwohweather]

oh i definitely understand, but what can i say? freedom isn't free. 
all of what you describe is more a disruption to capitalism than anything else. it's what we have to figure out how to deal with now.

Idk even know if it’s economic entirely, lol it’s more like people are sick of sitting around. Restaurants have been absolutely packed lately around here

[Hoosier]

Just checked and our bars in Indiana can operate at full capacity starting July 4.  Hopefully we get through it better than the other states. 

[beavis1729]

6 hours ago, nwohweather said:

Well this is the Democrat vs Republican debate lol. To each their own but that’s what the voting booth is for

But it shouldn’t be political, and it shouldn’t need to be voted on. It should be a position that 98%+ of people align on. How could someone be against policies which benefit the environment and the greater good/community, and stops people from fighting one another? These should be obvious “table stakes” policies that every government adopts, with only the exact details in question. 
 

I really am not intending to be argumentative, or to make anything personal. I just don’t understand why people don’t focus on the greater good. Ironically, this approach probably benefits individuals too, more often than not. The current state of affairs in our country, both politically and socially, is cripplingly unhealthy. It’s very sad and must be improved.
 

I guess I’m naive...

[on_wx]

6 hours ago, mississaugasnow said:

Ontario has 14.5M people and were now down under 200 a day with 30K a day testing and death rate dropping as well. Looking at States with similar population and the numbers are massive. 

The historical partnership and historical linkages of how our two countries grew is interesting and were seeing it play it out in trust of government and perceived freedoms. 

Sault St Marie Ontario and surrounding towns- The government has asked us to shut down and slow the spread so lets close and do our part. The government has asked us to wear masks and we should listen. I was in a Tim Hortons in Northern Ontario recently and they werent messing around with the 5 people in a store at a time. They asked us to wait outside and we did, when we were in and more people came in they asked again and without fighting it they waited outside. 

Sault St Marie Michigan and surrounding Northern MI- Nope shutdown is dumb, wearing a mask is dumb, the government is trying to crush my small business and if I want to open I will. 

 

Not my business though on how you guys want to fight covid on your side of the border. Its just interesting to see an imaginary line we drew in the sand and the corresponding outlooks on society that follow. 

 

Edit**** Ontario has also really dropped the ball regarding LTC and the investigations and possible criminal charges coming against some will be interesting. So we are not perfect, far from it. 

We were on lockdown for 2 months. I never even got laid off cos the federal government paid my workplaces wages so my employer didnt have to lose any staff. That was the Canadian emergency wage subsidy.

We still cant assemble in groups larger than 10 people. All businesses have to limit how many people can enter the store at the time so we have to form lines on marked spacing 6 feet apart to get into stores, including inside malls that were just allowed to reopen.

Theatres and recreation are still closed. Only restaurant patios are open with massive restrictions. And singing and dancing are illegal.

And more counties are making masks mandatory.

We've worked hard to keep our numbers down and aside from a couple dumb protests everyone is complying.

I'm hoping all the emergency aid for wages, unemployment, and business grants will keep us afloat. Could all come down at a moments notice tho.

Its night and day for us looking south of the border. 

[Stebo]

1 hour ago, beavis1729 said:

But it shouldn’t be political, and it shouldn’t need to be voted on. It should be a position that 98%+ of people align on. How could someone be against policies which benefit the environment and the greater good/community, and stops people from fighting one another? These should be obvious “table stakes” policies that every government adopts, with only the exact details in question. 
 

I really am not intending to be argumentative, or to make anything personal. I just don’t understand why people don’t focus on the greater good. Ironically, this approach probably benefits individuals too, more often than not. The current state of affairs in our country, both politically and socially, is cripplingly unhealthy. It’s very sad and must be improved.
 

I guess I’m naive...

It shouldn't be made political but when the president absolutely refuses to wear one or even acknowledge the existence of masks. It becomes political because far too many in this country take their cues from him lately.

[IWXwx]

All of this talk about politics and economy. Here is the real bottom line: People

Wear your mask

I'll just leave these right here.

Source: Johns Hopkins University

[Jonger]

I don't think the main debate is over masks. It's whether this virus is worth destroying lives over considering the risk to the population.

I'm fine with the masks, this is about forcing businesses to close and limit their business in unsustainable ways.

We have some states with nearly 25% unemployment right now. 

[A-L-E-K]

cool and good imo

[nwohweather]

2 hours ago, Jonger said:

I don't think the main debate is over masks. It's whether this virus is worth destroying lives over considering the risk to the population.

I'm fine with the masks, this is about forcing businesses to close and limit their business in unsustainable ways.

We have some states with nearly 25% unemployment right now. 

Bingo! I think the anti-mask wearers are idiots, and all of these viral videos with angry people are absurd. But shutting things down is just as absurd as being anti-mask. 21% of the workforce in Michigan isn't working. 1 out of every 5 people have no income currently. That is so so so so bad and I don't care if everyone has to walk around with a hockey helmet on as a face shield, you cannot properly exist with that high of an unemployment rate. I have a buddy who is a boat mechanic and his shop was deemed unessential during this pandemic so he had to work nights and sneak boat engines to his shop to work on. 

The biggest issue with our economy is it's incredibly service based & small business based. Sure you have big corporations & manufacturers, but all of the repairs for all of the stuff we have & most of the purchases we make in this country are done by dealerships and contractors. 

[RyanDe680]

Interestingly, watching hospital data in both TX and FL, and hospital admission and ICU bed use going down the last 5 days (sometimes by large amounts), despite cases on the rise there for nearly 3 weeks now.  

[Hoosier]

2 minutes ago, RyanDe680 said:

Interestingly, watching hospital data in both TX and FL, and hospital admission and ICU bed use going down the last 5 days (sometimes by large amounts), despite cases on the rise there for nearly 3 weeks now.  

I am not familiar with how those states share the hospital data... do they provide covid-only numbers or total numbers?  If it's the latter, then it would make it more difficult to figure out the trends since hospitals can suspend elective procedures and what not.   

[RyanDe680]

1 minute ago, Hoosier said:

I am not familiar with how those states share the hospital data... do they provide covid-only numbers or total numbers?  If it's the latter, then it would make it more difficult to figure out the trends since hospitals can suspend elective procedures and what not.   

Totals for all hospitals, not just covid... Here's the data

texas:  https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/0d8bdf9be927459d9cb11b9eaef6101f

florida:  https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/7572b118dc3c48d885d1c643c195314e/

 

As a side note, some of the dashboards that states carry are easy to read and user friendly.  The data still sucks to see, but it is well presented.

[Hoosier]

That is giving me fits on mobile.  Maybe try again later.

[Jonger]

1 minute ago, Hoosier said:

That is giving me fits on mobile.  Maybe try again later.

It was a slow open even on my one week old desktop.

[RyanDe680]

I'll stop refreshing then...  

[nwohweather]

Interestingly, watching hospital data in both TX and FL, and hospital admission and ICU bed use going down the last 5 days (sometimes by large amounts), despite cases on the rise there for nearly 3 weeks now.  

Because this thing is becoming less lethal & isn’t much worse than the flu. Our local news did a bit today on how the death rate has not increased at all, and in fact is down from April.

Obviously this data doesn’t mean go mask-free, but clearly it’s only killing 10-15 people a day. Similar statistics to the flu quite honestly

[Hoosier]

Flu deaths are virtually non existent at this time of year in the US.  Maybe a dozen or two dozen per day or something?  Meanwhile covid is still killing 500+ a day on average.  It's not the same and never has been, but with any luck, it will be similar one day.  

[Jonger]

8,000 people die each day in the U.S.

Puts things into perspective.

[Stebo]

13 minutes ago, Jonger said:

8,000 people die each day in the U.S.

Puts things into perspective.

Yeah that one virus is killing about 7% of all people dying in a day. That is quite a perspective that can be prevented if people actually cared enough.