RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:30 PM, Stebo said: Here is the problem with his belief, we have 70k people dead with the government's reaction with no end in sight. How many would we have dead if we weren't doing all these preventative measures, I would argue 3x 4x 5x dead or even worse with hospitals inundated. Expand I think if we lived in a rural area with little to no cases, we’d have a better understanding of their frustration. If they lived in an urban area with a lot of cases, they’d be more sympathetic to ours. It really does come down to personal experiences and where you live right now. Like @RogueWaves, I’m a boots-on-the-ground kinda person, so actually being in a location and experiencing what’s happening around you goes a long way in what opinions you hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:35 PM, RobertSul said: I think if we lived in a rural area with little to no cases, we’d have a better understanding of their frustration. If they lived in an urban area with a lot of cases, they’d be more sympathetic to ours. It really does come down to personal experiences and where you live right now. Like @RogueWaves, I’m a boots-on-the-ground kinda person, so actually being in a location and experiencing what’s happening around you goes a long way in what opinions you hold. Expand Rural cases are going up though per capita. Yeah there are some places isolated that haven't like the UP, but the rest of the areas are going up and would have gone through the roof without preventative measures that were put in place. That last part escapes people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:20 PM, Stebo said: No but I have living grandparents in their 80s and parents in their late 50s. I don't want either of them dying from this, I actually care about more than myself. Expand The virus is simply the tipping point for people already teetering on the end. I guess we should just shut down the planet during every flu season -- because 1 death is too many. Or is that 2 deaths? 3? What's the cutoff? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:38 PM, Stebo said: Rural cases are going up though per capita. Yeah there are some places isolated that haven't like the UP, but the rest of the areas are going up and would have gone through the roof without preventative measures that were put in place. That last part escapes people. Expand Yeah. That’s the difficulty. If nothing happens, it’s “lockdown didn’t work!!” If your town is inundated with cases, it’s, “lockdown didn’t work!!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:39 PM, Jonger said: The virus is simply the tipping point for people already teetering on the end. I guess we should just shut down the planet during every flu season -- because 1 death is too many. Or is that 2 deaths? 3? What's the cutoff? Expand It isn't just killing old people, that myth was completely destroyed weeks ago. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:39 PM, Jonger said: The virus is simply the tipping point for people already teetering on the end. I guess we should just shut down the planet during every flu season -- because 1 death is too many. Or is that 2 deaths? 3? What's the cutoff? Expand The cut-off is when a vaccine is available to 0% of the population. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:30 PM, Stebo said: Here is the problem with his belief, we have 70k people dead with the government's reaction with no end in sight. How many would we have dead if we weren't doing all these preventative measures, I would argue 3x 4x 5x dead or even worse with hospitals inundated. Expand 100,000 people die each day of old age. You're going to find that many/most of those have a secondary condition that finally does them in. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:41 PM, RobertSul said: The cut-off is when a vaccine is available to 0% of the population. Expand Hell when there is no definitive treatment available too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:42 PM, Jonger said: 100,000 people die each day of old age. You're going to find that many/most of those have a secondary condition that finally does them in. Expand How often has that overwhelmed hospital systems, though? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:42 PM, Jonger said: 100,000 people die each day of old age. You're going to find that many/most of those have a secondary condition that finally does them in. Expand This isn't killing old people. Did you just shut down the internet and TV for 5 weeks and then decide to come in here and drop old points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:40 PM, Stebo said: It isn't just killing old people, that myth was completely destroyed weeks ago. Expand That just isn't true. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109867/coronavirus-death-rates-by-age-new-york-city/ There's a HUGE age component. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 That's like pointing to good sea ice extent and ignoring volume. The Ice!!! It's back to normal!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:45 PM, Jonger said: That just isn't true. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109867/coronavirus-death-rates-by-age-new-york-city/ There's a HUGE age component. Expand That is a third of people that are still dying well before they should. Stop ignoring that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:47 PM, Stebo said: That is a third of people that are still dying well before they should. Stop ignoring that. Expand According to who? The reaper claims people in that age range all the time, especially ones in terrible health to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:50 PM, Jonger said: According to who? The reaper claims people in that age range all the time, especially ones in terrible health to begin with. Expand Life expectancy numbers for one thing. Just like you are assuming all these old people are ready to die at 75. It is an average which means you can and often do have people living well beyond that. Either way this is still way more deadly than the flu so the comparison is useless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:50 PM, Jonger said: According to who? The reaper claims people in that age range all the time, especially ones in terrible health to begin with. Expand The reaper doesn’t overwhelm hospital systems all the time. This isn’t an “all the time” scenario we are in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Part of the balance that needs to be considered is that, while people can reasonably debate whether the government should have mandated business closing and other actions as much as they did, it's unacceptable (to me) that the government didn't provide more reassurance and income for people while this is occurring. For example, just say "we will give you 75% of your annual 2019 W-2/1099 income every month until the end of 2020, up to a cap of X...with no questions asked". This would have been much more efficient than all of the complicated first-come first-served PPP/loan programs/stimulus checks that are happening now, and most importantly, it would've given people reassurance. Also, it would stop pitting people against each other. When a country has a crisis, people need to come together, not be arguing. Capitalism doesn't work well during a crisis, as the inherent desire to be competitive with other people is a very bad thing during a crisis. This is a horrendous faliure in leadership from this administration. Sure, there would probably be inflation and other unintended economic issues down the road as a result of this...but what is the alternative? People would have much more incentive to care about public health and social distance if they didn't need to worry about their paycheck and survival. This is what's causing all of the problems, imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 So the drunk driving comparison to covid-19 is problematic of course since drunk driving is not a contagious virus with potential for exponential growth, but it does show that we are willing to "tolerate" a certain number of deaths without banning cars. With many states reopening now or soon, the governors are getting to that point with covid-19. I was 100% on board with shutting things down, but even I think that it is time to start reopening where the hospital situation allows for it. How much and how fast to do it is the tricky part of course since cases can start increasing pretty fast. Personally for me in Indiana, I would've liked to beat back our curve more than we did before starting to reopen so many things at once, but it is what it is and we can only hope that hospitals can continue to handle the load without even getting close to being overwhelmed. Regarding the death toll, I am not going to argue that you can find deaths that were inappropriately labeled as covid-19. But you have to remember how this was spreading basically unchecked for a while in the US. In the final analysis I think we will find that we undercounted US deaths by thousands or even tens of thousands up to this point. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:53 PM, RobertSul said: The reaper doesn’t overwhelm hospital systems all the time. This isn’t an “all the time” scenario we are in. Expand When society collapses over the 2nd or 3rd multi-month shutdown for the next new bug, I hope it was all worth it. I hope public workers suffer just as much as the private industry too. We need to spread the pain around. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:57 PM, beavis1729 said: Part of the balance that needs to be considered is that, while people can reasonably debate whether the government should have mandated business closing and other actions as much as they did, it's unacceptable (to me) that the government didn't provide more reassurance and income for people while this is occurring. For example, just say "we will give you 75% of your annual 2019 W-2/1099 income every month until the end of 2020, up to a cap of X...with no questions asked". This would have been much more efficient than all of the complicated first-come first-served PPP/loan programs/stimulus checks that are happening now, and most importantly, it would've given people reassurance. Also, it would stop pitting people against each other. When a country has a crisis, people need to come together, not be arguing. Capitalism doesn't work well during a crisis, as the inherent desire to be competitive with other people is a very bad thing during a crisis. This is a horrendous faliure in leadership from this administration. Sure, there would probably be inflation and other unintended economic issues down the road as a result of this...but what is the alternative? People would have much more incentive to care about public health and social distance if they didn't need to worry about their paycheck and survival. This is what's causing all of the problems, imo. Expand There are people especially on one side of the aisle that want to do all of this, the other side is pissed off that anyone got anything extra as it is. Sadly that will always be political. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:59 PM, Jonger said: When society collapses over the 2nd or 3rd multi-month shutdown for the next new bug, I hope it was all worth it. I hope public workers suffer just as much as the private industry too. We need to spread the pain around. Expand The last major pandemic was 100 years ago - do you expect to be around another 100 years? Not to mention the lessons we’ll have learned combatting this current virus with modern technology will facilitate preparation with future outbreaks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:58 PM, Hoosier said: So the drunk driving comparison to covid-19 is problematic of course since drunk driving is not a contagious virus with potential for exponential growth, but it does show that we are willing to "tolerate" a certain number of deaths without banning cars. With many states reopening now or soon, the governors are getting to that point with covid-19. I was 100% on board with shutting things down, but even I think that it is time to start reopening where the hospital situation allows for it. How much and how fast to do it is the tricky part of course since cases can start increasing pretty fast. Personally for me in Indiana, I would've liked to beat back our curve more than we did before starting to reopen so many things at once, but it is what it is and we can only hope that hospitals can continue to handle the load without even getting close to being overwhelmed. Regarding the death toll, I am not going to argue that you can find deaths that were inappropriately labeled as covid-19. But you have to remember how this was spreading basically unchecked for a while in the US. In the final analysis I think we will find that we undercounted US deaths by thousands or even tens of thousands up to this point. Expand This is probably true. The antibody test should show how many people were actually infected too. My guess, those random sample tests that yielded 2/3rd positive test rates will show how low the danger really was. We probably all were all exposed, viruses move through the population these days FAST. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8232857/One-people-Massachusetts-study-tested-positive-COVID-19-antibodies.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 5:01 PM, RobertSul said: The last major pandemic was 100 years ago - do you expect to be around another 100 years? Not to mention the lessons we’ll have learned combatting this current virus with modern technology will facilitate preparation with future outbreaks. Expand Don't smoke or get fat. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 4:59 PM, Jonger said: When society collapses over the 2nd or 3rd multi-month shutdown for the next new bug, I hope it was all worth it. I hope public workers suffer just as much as the private industry too. We need to spread the pain around. Expand And there it is... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 5:04 PM, Jonger said: Don't smoke or get fat. Expand Or don’t dismantle your federal pandemic response team. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 5:04 PM, Stebo said: And there it is... Expand There's a definite divide between private industry and public when it comes to economic pain. I'm pretty sure public workers have very little risk of losing their jobs when we reopen -- they're budget is made whole by tax payers. The restaurant owner, the hotel owner.... they're ****ed. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 5:05 PM, RobertSul said: Or don’t dismantle your federal pandemic response team. Expand Right... because that was ready to move on COVID-19. Sure.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 5:08 PM, Jonger said: Right... because that was ready to move on COVID-19. Sure.. Expand We won't know because it was dismantled... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertSul Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 5:08 PM, Jonger said: Right... because that was ready to move on COVID-19. Sure.. Expand It’s the difference of going into a country you’ve never been before with a map or no map. One has you prepared, the other has you stumbling in the dark, figuratively speaking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 On 5/5/2020 at 5:11 PM, Stebo said: We won't know because it was dismantled... Expand Unless they started a program of reducing obesity and successfully achieved that goal -- I doubt it would matter. The link between type 2 diabetes and COVID deaths is undeniable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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