Coronavirus

[sokolow]

You said it! Remember the country we’re citizens of! We don’t have to choose between nursing homes with corpses stacked in the hallways and generational economic devastation! That’s just the choice our leaders are offering, because they don’t have the courage to do otherwise.

[Hoosier]

31 minutes ago, buckeye said:

Rant done?  Good.  My fcking turn.  

If that's ALL you're going through right now....you are one of the lucky ones.    The truth is there are 22 million people laid off for starters and a vast majority already live pay check to pay check.  They're white, they're black, they're professionals, they're blue collar, factory workers and small business owners.  They have children, mortgages, health issues....who knows...but certainly not you...you have no idea what these people are going through.  The fact that you and others here feel the need to interject race and throw the race card at people who you've never met or seen before while you assign motives to their actions is disgusting.   It reveals more about you then any fantasy shade you choose to  project on them.   Just as we have been so easily cowed into quivering inside of our closed homes and shutting down the businesses we have spent our lives building....now we're perfectly fine with nuking the first ammendment.   It really is amazing.  Some of you people need a swift kick in the a** and a reminder of who you are and the country you are citizens of.

You  berate a blue collar guy at a protest who just lost his job and livihood because according to you,  it's the fault of his stupid life choices.  Yet there's no problem collapsing the economy and thereby killing off far more people... all in the name of heroic covid patients, the majority who've spent the last 30 years of their lives stuffing their faces with twinkies and smoking their way into pre-existing medical conditions.  Before you gasp with faux shock....all I'm doing is illustrating the other side of the cavalier argument YOU presented.  Today they protest as you shame them, tomorrow they put a fcking gun to their temple.  

We also need to stop this faux narrative that defending the economy is disregarding lives...it's just an attempt to use shame as a weapon against anyone who dares question the state's orders.  There are many studies dating back to the 1970's that show anywhere between 1000 and 35000 deaths for every 1% increase in unemployment.  That's not taking into consideration an unprecedented collapse like we are now experiencing.   

Much of the economic damage has already become systemic and continues to metastize.  It will last well beyond these ridiculous draconian shut-down measures.  People have been conditioned by fear and shamed into compliance.  They are still going to be afraid to fly, sit in a crowded restaurant, or go to a crowded mall for quite a long time which will extend the economic misery.  The amount of death as a result of the economic collapse will dwarf covid deaths.  This is just the beginning.  Many small businesses will never re-open, the housing market will most likely collapse,  the credit market will follow, and then the banks.  Believing the government can print its way out of this is going to show a lot people, very quickly, the 'joys' of socialism. 

Right now this may seem like nothing more than watching a netflix documentary while having to take a couple of weeks off without pay.  That's how a lot of the posters in this thread seem to act.  But in the end, it doesn't matter who you are, who you work for, or where you live, the economic collapse is your biggest threat not the virus.   Yet many here would rather worship the government and obediently follow policy  based on virus models whose verification scores make a 1997 dgex 10 day snowfall forecast look solid.   We will obey like good sheeple.   Good luck if you're counting on the government and their, "we're all in this together", mantra . 

As far as those stupid white trash people blocking the roads in Michigan...they're light years ahead in reality and clarity.   Is all lost?  Maybe, maybe not, but if not it's because we're only midway thru April.   

How's that for a rant

Go ahead and throw the weenies and flame away....I'd expect nothing less and quite frankly don't give a sh*t

Are you really gonna lecture Powerball about race?  Dude, he is a black man.  I don't think he was saying that everybody at the protest was racist, but we can probably assume the people who showed up with the confederate flag are as well as an unknowable number of others.

People are hurting and scared about their future, that is for sure.  And there are good arguments to make about the negative consequences of a quasi lockdown, which is why some kind of balance will be need to be struck at some point to be able to start to gradually reopen.

[hoosierwx]

This is the main point.  Buckeye - I (and many others, I'm sure) do understand where you are coming from...but what does it say about us as a country/society/culture when there are so many deaths that occur for every 1pp increase in the unemployment rate?  That is the issue.  It's not about hard-core idealistic socialism...but we really need to stop with this "every man for himself" attitude in this country, and create communities where we all do what's best for the greater good, not competing viciously against one another for every nickle and dime of income so that we can barely survive until the next paycheck.  What kind of a life is that?  Why is our health care tied to employment in the first place?  Why don't we have paid sick leave like other countries have?  What do we value??  Sure, these policies would mean a higher cost of goods and services...but isn't that a reasonable price to pay for security in health and wellness?
COVID-19 is exposing so many of these underlying issues in our culture.  Of course an individual's own business that they spent blood, sweat, and tears on is important and valuable and should be protected as much as possible.  But in a country as wealthy as we are, why can't we pull out all the economic stops to help every single person in this country...knowing that it's an emergency that will better position us for the long-term.  Basically, what Powerball referenced.  When 40% of people live paycheck to paycheck, $1,200 doesn't help much.  Yes, these emergency measures may mean higher taxes or other challenges down the road...but it's an emergency.  Why don't we all work with each other and collectively sacrifice for the greater good?  We need to stop the "you vs. me" attitude that is toxic to this country.

The 1200 was a stimulus payment. The enhanced unemployment insurance also gives an extra 600 per week on top of regular unemployment for 4 months. A very large percentage will be making more on unemployment than their regular salary with less expense as far as gas and what not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Hoosier]

87 inmates test positive at Westville, IN correctional facility

https://wsbt.com/amp/news/coronavirus/positive-coronavirus-cases-jump-to-87-at-westville-correctional-facility

[wisconsinwx]

1 hour ago, beavis1729 said:

This is the main point.  Buckeye - I (and many others, I'm sure) do understand where you are coming from...but what does it say about us as a country/society/culture when there are so many deaths that occur for every 1pp increase in the unemployment rate?  That is the issue.  It's not about hard-core idealistic socialism...but we really need to stop with this "every man for himself" attitude in this country, and create communities where we all do what's best for the greater good, not competing viciously against one another for every nickle and dime of income so that we can barely survive until the next paycheck.  What kind of a life is that?  Why is our health care tied to employment in the first place?  Why don't we have paid sick leave like other countries have?  What do we value??  Sure, these policies would mean a higher cost of goods and services...but isn't that a reasonable price to pay for security in health and wellness?

COVID-19 is exposing so many of these underlying issues in our culture.  Of course an individual's own business that they spent blood, sweat, and tears on is important and valuable and should be protected as much as possible.  But in a country as wealthy as we are, why can't we pull out all the economic stops to help every single person in this country...knowing that it's an emergency that will better position us for the long-term.  Basically, what Powerball referenced.  When 40% of people live paycheck to paycheck, $1,200 doesn't help much.  Yes, these emergency measures may mean higher taxes or other challenges down the road...but it's an emergency.  Why don't we all work with each other and collectively sacrifice for the greater good?  We need to stop the "you vs. me" attitude that is toxic to this country.

To me it starts with the two party political system.  Very toxic, and Trump hasn't helped things at all.

[UMB WX]

Toxic and doesn't appear smart enough to work an electric toothbrush..  way to pick your leader, America.

[Stebo]

1 hour ago, Hoosier said:

Are you really gonna lecture Powerball about race?  Dude, he is a black man.  I don't think he was saying that everybody at the protest was racist, but we can probably assume the people who showed up with the confederate flag are as well as an unknowable number of others.

People are hurting and scared about their future, that is for sure.  And there are good arguments to make about the negative consequences of a quasi lockdown, which is why some kind of balance will be need to be struck at some point to be able to start to gradually reopen.

The whole issue I don't get is yes people are out of work, why don't they take advantage of all the opportunities given to them. Unemployment is available to millions across the country, and yes it isn't perfect but it is available for a very large majority and with the additional 600 a week that is more than enough to survive this shutdown. It isn't permanent so make use of what is available.

The negative consequences are no where near what the positives are, what happens if we let our guard down and let this virus run rampant, we have over 650k cases that we know of and over 30k people have died in the matter of 7 weeks, both of those numbers have shown no sign of slowing and this is with precautions in place.

[Stebo]

1 hour ago, hoosierwx said:

The 1200 was a stimulus payment. The enhanced unemployment insurance also gives an extra 600 per week on top of regular unemployment for 4 months. A very large percentage will be making more on unemployment than their regular salary with less expense as far as gas and what not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

Bingo, if someone can't live off of 962 dollars a week in this state, I am sorry but you are living beyond your means and/or should have saved up your excess income.

That projects out at 50k a year. Well above the poverty line, actually even well above the median income in this country.

[Hoosier]

25 minutes ago, Stebo said:

The whole issue I don't get is yes people are out of work, why don't they take advantage of all the opportunities given to them. Unemployment is available to millions across the country, and yes it isn't perfect but it is available for a very large majority and with the additional 600 a week that is more than enough to survive this shutdown. It isn't permanent so make use of what is available.

The negative consequences are no where near what the positives are, what happens if we let our guard down and let this virus run rampant, we have over 650k cases that we know of and over 30k people have died in the matter of 7 weeks, both of those numbers have shown no sign of slowing and this is with precautions in place.

Yeah, I wouldn't be on board with starting to reopen (which still doesn't mean flipping the switch like everything is ok) until testing and tracing gets a lot better than it is now, and preferably with rapid result testing.  No more of this wait 5 days or 7 days for your test result, and EVERYBODY who is symptomatic should have access to testing.

[Stebo]

Just now, Hoosier said:

Yeah, I wouldn't be on board with starting to reopen (which still doesn't mean flipping the switch like everything is ok) until testing and tracing gets a lot better than it is now, and preferably with rapid result testing.  No more of this wait 5 days or 7 days for your test result, and EVERYBODY who is symptomatic should have access to testing.  

Exactly, we haven't gotten to the point where people can get a test on demand, how could we ever open things up when we can't test.

[Stebo]

Trust me I get people are restless, especially as the weather is improving, but this is being done so we don't end up with something like 1918. It is just rational to be safe vs sorry.

[weatherbo]

1 minute ago, Stebo said:

Trust me I get people are restless, especially as the weather is improving, but this is being done so we don't end up with something like 1918. It is just rational to be safe vs sorry.

I don’t think people are as restless as they are worried.

[Stebo]

Just now, weatherbo said:

I don’t think people are as restless as they are worried.

I get that too because we don't know where the end will be. But we are all in this together and some of us like myself are still out there keeping the world at least semi-moving. What we all don't want though is at the end of this to know a relative or friend who has perished.

[sokolow]

32 minutes ago, Stebo said:

Bingo, if someone can't live off of 962 dollars a week in this state, I am sorry but you are living beyond your means and/or should have saved up your excess income.

That projects out at 50k a year. Well above the poverty line, actually even well above the median income in this country.

I am presently in real time on the ol’ family social media watching a labor lawyer and someone who managed a regional dept. of economic security walk a whole bunch of kin through this stuff and some have had no problems. Some have gotten their Trump bucks already. Meanwhile some have gotten UI arbitrarily withheld for totally opaque reasons, and have no idea whether their stimulus check is going to be disbursed.  These are all literate native English speakers with standard wage or salary jobs.

Many state UI systems are not designed to facilitate ease of access to the qualified benefit, whether intentionally or not.  SSDI can be even worse.

Hitting that wall where what should be easy and reassuring, isn’t, and instead its a punitive nightmare, and then someone gets on you about it is your fault, is one reason why people are presently enraged.

[Stebo]

2 minutes ago, sokolow said:

I am presently in real time on the ol’ family social media watching a labor lawyer and someone who managed a regional dept. of economic security walk a whole bunch of kin through this stuff and some have had no problems. Some have gotten their Trump bucks already. Meanwhile some have gotten UI arbitrarily withheld for totally opaque reasons, and have no idea whether their stimulus check is going to be disbursed.  These are all literate native English speakers with standard wage or salary jobs.

Many state UI systems are not designed to facilitate ease of access to the qualified benefit, whether intentionally or not.  SSDI can be even worse.

Hitting that wall where what should be easy and reassuring, isn’t, and instead its a punitive nightmare, and then someone gets on you about it is your fault, is one reason why people are presently enraged.

Yeah some of the problems with these systems are really challenging but then again 7 weeks ago we didn't expect any of this to happen and the systems were not setup to handle no where near this kind of volume. I will say the states though have done a wonderful job adjusting on the fly compared to the federal government and its issues.

[sokolow]

I also want to pause to defend Buckeye’s stance on the necessity of the right to protest and dissent, even and in fact especially in time of public health crisis. I don’t usually go the classic disagree-but-defend-your-right route but the same liberty the restart the economy convoy exercised is one that wildcat-striking delivery workers or healthcare staff protesting dogsh!t PPE might need tomorrow, and which we all might need next week or next month

Take a tip from the wiser, savvier hippies and have your protest organizers drill the masses on opening a lane for EMS though.

[RobertSul]

12 hours ago, buckeye said:

Rant done?  Good.  My fcking turn.  

If that's ALL you're going through right now....you are one of the lucky ones.    The truth is there are 22 million people laid off for starters and a vast majority already live pay check to pay check.  They're white, they're black, they're professionals, they're blue collar, factory workers and small business owners.  They have children, mortgages, health issues....who knows...but certainly not you...you have no idea what these people are going through.  The fact that you and others here feel the need to interject race and throw the race card at people who you've never met or seen before while you assign motives to their actions is disgusting.   It reveals more about you then any fantasy shade you choose to  project on them.   Just as we have been so easily cowed into quivering inside of our closed homes and shutting down the businesses we have spent our lives building....now we're perfectly fine with nuking the first ammendment.   It really is amazing.  Some of you people need a swift kick in the a** and a reminder of who you are and the country you are citizens of.

You  berate a blue collar guy at a protest who just lost his job and livihood because according to you,  it's the fault of his stupid life choices.  Yet there's no problem collapsing the economy and thereby killing off far more people... all in the name of heroic covid patients, the majority who've spent the last 30 years of their lives stuffing their faces with twinkies and smoking their way into pre-existing medical conditions.  Before you gasp with faux shock....all I'm doing is illustrating the other side of the cavalier argument YOU presented.  Today they protest as you shame them, tomorrow they put a fcking gun to their temple.  

We also need to stop this faux narrative that defending the economy is disregarding lives...it's just an attempt to use shame as a weapon against anyone who dares question the state's orders.  There are many studies dating back to the 1970's that show anywhere between 1000 and 35000 deaths for every 1% increase in unemployment.  That's not taking into consideration an unprecedented collapse like we are now experiencing.   

Much of the economic damage has already become systemic and continues to metastize.  It will last well beyond these ridiculous draconian shut-down measures.  People have been conditioned by fear and shamed into compliance.  They are still going to be afraid to fly, sit in a crowded restaurant, or go to a crowded mall for quite a long time which will extend the economic misery.  The amount of death as a result of the economic collapse will dwarf covid deaths.  This is just the beginning.  Many small businesses will never re-open, the housing market will most likely collapse,  the credit market will follow, and then the banks.  Believing the government can print its way out of this is going to show a lot people, very quickly, the 'joys' of socialism. 

Right now this may seem like nothing more than watching a netflix documentary while having to take a couple of weeks off without pay.  That's how a lot of the posters in this thread seem to act.  But in the end, it doesn't matter who you are, who you work for, or where you live, the economic collapse is your biggest threat not the virus.   Yet many here would rather worship the government and obediently follow policy  based on virus models whose verification scores make a 1997 dgex 10 day snowfall forecast look solid.   We will obey like good sheeple.   Good luck if you're counting on the government and their, "we're all in this together", mantra . 

As far as those stupid white trash people blocking the roads in Michigan...they're light years ahead in reality and clarity.   Is all lost?  Maybe, maybe not, but if not it's because we're only midway thru April.   

How's that for a rant

Go ahead and throw the weenies and flame away....I'd expect nothing less and quite frankly don't give a sh*t

You definitely bring up valid points. The thing is, we’re the nation with the highest GDP in the world, why is our safety net in tatters like those of developing countries? Same with our healthcare. I’m all for capitalism, but there has to be SOME redistribution - make the top too heavy and everything below gets crushed.  Too much equalizing and people don’t want to work as hard. There’s definitely a Goldilocks zone  between these two extremes. 

We’re all working through this virus and the ensuing economic impact together, and we all want the best. The fear is that this is unprecedented in the modern age, but certain parts of the economy (e-services, agriculture, delivery services, etc.) are continuing to hum along while other industries are in sleep mode. 
 

Vaccines and antibodies are being worked on in the meantime, and there’s never been a mass scale human effort to combat a virus like we have now. The main effort is to prevent the crash of hospitals not just for COVID patients, but those with ANY medical emergency... which can happen at any age. 

Once we get over that hump, things will gradually return to normal. 

I know it’s a time plagued with uncertainty, but we’re all in this together and we’ll all pull through. 

[WestMichigan]

14 hours ago, UMB WX said:

 

Canada really stepped up to the plate for their citizens. all levels of govt are listening to their public health officials and their recommendations - along with strong collaboration between the federal govt and the provinces as well as between the provinces themselves.  govt implemented fiscal measures to help canadian citizens and businesses who've been impacted by Covid19 get by for at least 4 months. there is a strong sense of community and feeling that they are all in this together.  

Then there is US. incompetent leadership, anti-science and this horrific prioritization of the economic well-being of the .01% over the the health and lives of the 99%

one time payment of $1200??  We spent trillions on useless wars.. spent trillions in 2008 bailing out banks and other industries for the 2008 crisis.. spent billions bailing out airlines a few years back that took the funds to buy back stocks instead of investing in their workforce, ect.  and the list of corporate bailouts go's a mile long. yet when it comes down to it, is unwilling to spend barely anything helping out its own citizens who lost their jobs due to a pandemic?

If you like some country better than here why not move?  Everyone is constantly telling people to move north if they want more snow.  Same thing here.  If you want a completely different government move.  There is no sense staying in a miserable place when there is somewhere else that offers something far superior to what you have now.

[RobertSul]

25 minutes ago, WestMichigan said:

If you like some country better than here why not move?  Everyone is constantly telling people to move north if they want more snow.  Same thing here.  If you want a completely different government move.  There is no sense staying in a miserable place when there is somewhere else that offers something far superior to what you have now.

We live in a society where change is cast by voting. I love this country and I want to see it improve, as do you, but we’re probably just coming at the solution from different directions.

With climate, you can’t change it by voting. Moving is the ONLY option. 

[nwohweather]

Oof this thread took off but honestly I’m glad. It shows the dire straits we are in with a shut down economy.

One thing I’d like to say is with the safety net argument, there really is none for an economy completely shutting down for two months due to a pandemic. I do understand the clamor for a system to Canada as we have excessive poverty and inequality in this country, but personally I doubt any of us have a true problem with that.

The majority of us have an insane amount of wealth compared to the average Canadian or Brit, absolutely insane. This economy and its rules are far from perfect but it’s the reason we can have 2000 sq ft homes, boats, golf courses everywhere, cottages in Northern MI.  I mean there is no way around it, as Americans like the fact many of us can afford quite a bit of "stuff". 

I often am in the Toronto area for work and when I’d drive over before moving to SC it would just shock me the lack of commercial development compared to what we see in America.

[nwohweather]

Great quote from a WSJ article by Peggy Noonan today...

"There seems no way to avoid this. On the other hand each day America is closed down more people will be out of work and lose a sense of hope. We have to be attentive to that too. What was most disturbing about the 10,000 people who showed up before Easter at a San Antonio food bank is this: They were people in cars. They were not “the poor.” They were working and middle-class people in line for free eggs and bread in America. Twenty-two million have applied for unemployment since the pandemic began, and it’s going to get worse. This is a never-before-seen level of national economic calamity; history doesn’t get bigger than this."

 

[Hoosier]

The new data dump from Indiana has pushed the statewide number of cases over 10000 and deaths over 500.

[RyanDe680]

This is such a hot (mess) of a topic on social media that I just stay out of.  Bottom line, I manage money for a living and the economic data that is going to come through over the next 3-6 month is going to be UGLY.  I don't care what type of recovery (V, U, W, whatever) we go through, but the market will begin to reflect this much much earlier than the data suggests.  Unemployment claims will slow and the Government will need to extend these extra payments out to help people.

 

We as a society will act in certain ways just like we did after 9/11 and the subsequent years to follow.  Remember though too that a vaccine won't be the perfect end-all, because we have a flu vaccine available now that is controversial as well.  The hope should be that we find some type of remedy that eases the symptoms and stops the progression to prevent more serious illnesses.  Progress seems to be gaining ground there...

[Chicago Storm]

On 4/12/2020 at 12:43 PM, Chicago Storm said:

Seems to be a steady rise each day, but nothing exponential per say...

Tue: 13,549 cases and and 380 deaths total. (+1,287 & +73)

Wed: 15,078 cases and 462 deaths total. (+1,529 & +82)

Thur: 16,422 cases and 528 deaths total. (+1,344 & +66)

Fri: 17,887 cases and 596 deaths total. (+1,465 & +68)

Sat: 19,180 cases and 677 deaths total. (+1,293 & +81)

Still the same leveled steady increases each day, with both cases and deaths.

Sun: 20,852 cases and 720 deaths total. (+1,293 & +81)

Mon: 22,025 cases and 794 deaths total. (+1,173 & +74)

Tue: 23,247 cases and 868 deaths total. (+1,222 & +74)

Wed: 24,593 cases and 948 deaths total. (+1,346 & +80)

Thur: 25,733 cases and 1,072 deaths total. (+1,140 & +125)

[WestMichigan]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Storm said:

Still the same leveled steady increases each day, with both cases and deaths.

Sun: 20,852 cases and 720 deaths total. (+1,293 & +81)

Mon: 22,025 cases and 794 deaths total. (+1,173 & +74)

Tue: 23,247 cases and 868 deaths total. (+1,222 & +74)

Wed: 24,593 cases and 948 deaths total. (+1,346 & +80)

Thur: 25,733 cases and 1,072 deaths total. (+1,140 & +125)

I am a little confused.  Compared with your post from last 4/12 the cases per day are down a little.  Nothing dramatic but down about 150/day on average.  I agree deaths are ticking up.

[KokomoWX]

Those who support the stay at home order, how far are you willing to keep it going?  June 30th? Labor Day? January 2021?  I'm just asking. 

[Chicago Storm]

13 minutes ago, WestMichigan said:

I am a little confused.  Compared with your post from last 4/12 the cases per day are down a little.  Nothing dramatic but down about 150/day on average.  I agree deaths are ticking up.

The range has generally been between +1,100 to +1,550 during that 10 day stretch, constantly bouncing around. So definitely not a downward trend, just more-so a leveled off steady increase.

[madwx]

4 minutes ago, KokomoWX said:

Those who support the stay at home order, how far are you willing to keep it going?  June 30th? Labor Day? January 2021?  I'm just asking. 

May 15 with a slow phase in after that, then maintaining a baseline of social distancing for around next year.   Any time we can buy to get better treatments/therapeutics more widely available is essential.  We've done a pretty good job flattening this first wave but we need to be prepared for waves to come again later, especially if we relax social distancing too much.

[Hoosier]

9 minutes ago, KokomoWX said:

Those who support the stay at home order, how far are you willing to keep it going?  June 30th? Labor Day? January 2021?  I'm just asking. 

In Indiana, we are doing quite well as far as hospital/ICU bed and ventilator availability.  In order to keep it that way, any reopening is going to have to be gradual and not like flipping a light switch.  I actually liked the 3 phase reopening guidelines and what needs to happen to go from phase to phase that was put out by the White House yesterday. 

[sokolow]

NEJM posts this correspondence from public health and epidemiology researchers at UHK about their role in Hong Kong’s response, via @EricTopol

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2009790?query=featured_home