Coronavirus

[Powerball]

6 hours ago, Hoosier said:

Looks like a decent sized protest in Michigan.  Streets are clogged.  

Hopefully the people out there will be understanding whenever the next protest occurs for a cause they may not agree with.

It's just too bad that they're going to take away hospital beds from thoughtful people when they inevitably catch the virus. 

[Powerball]

8 hours ago, nwohweather said:

No lol shut down is only Fourth of July week. And then Christmas week thru New Years is shut down.

Again though all of these arguments are cancelled by the fact basically every manufacturing business is somehow essential. That’s my point, why is the government telling us what we can and can’t buy but then allowing all factories to run as is. Mask wise the demand is so high because every company is buying them in bulk it doesn’t really matter if construction people are using them, right now everyone is.

But believe me the auto industry will be decimated by this. Sales will plummet from this and companies will be so loaded with debt they won’t buy fleet trucks for business purposes.

This nation is driven by automotive, defense, heavy duty machinery (Caterpillar) and most of all aerospace manufacturing. Having these industries falter will rattle supply chains and wallets across America.

Auto Sales have already cratered to near Great Recession lows, and will no doubt be even lower by the end of April. 

Also, the ways things are going at Ford, they'll be in bankruptcy court by the Summer. They have a furniture CEO running the company who's completely out of his element, their stocks are now rated junk and they're begging for things such as another Cash for Clunkers.

Ford's U.S. Sales Chief Wants a New "Cash for Clunkers" Initiative: Here's Why It Won't Help

Ford’s Debt Was Cut to Junk. This Is Why the Stock Is Rising.

GM and Chrysler are somewhat better because they got rid of much of their debt in bankruptcy and GM specifically has exited the world to fluff up its balance sheets. But with auto sales in both the US and China (GM's primary markets) being an unmitigated disaster, and the losses they were still recovering from after the plant shutdowns last fall, they're not far behind from being in Ford's position. 

And then there's the city of Detroit. They already have a $300 million dollar budget hole to backfill, and that's going to mean more cuts to the city's already bare bones services. 

 

 

[michsnowfreak]

35 minutes ago, Stebo said:

That protest in Lansing was so fruitful. Idiots

 

 I love Michigan but this minority that protested at the Capitol were pure idiots

[Powerball]

9 hours ago, nwohweather said:

No lol shut down is only Fourth of July week. And then Christmas week thru New Years is shut down.

Again though all of these arguments are cancelled by the fact basically every manufacturing business is somehow essential. That’s my point, why is the government telling us what we can and can’t buy but then allowing all factories to run as is. Mask wise the demand is so high because every company is buying them in bulk it doesn’t really matter if construction people are using them, right now everyone is.

But believe me the auto industry will be decimated by this. Sales will plummet from this and companies will be so loaded with debt they won’t buy fleet trucks for business purposes.

This nation is driven by automotive, defense, heavy duty machinery (Caterpillar) and most of all aerospace manufacturing. Having these industries falter will rattle supply chains and wallets across America.

What I will say is that defense, as usual, seems to be the only real safe haven. For one, the government mandates that contractors maintain a certain staff level for national security purposes. But also, that industry's main customer is one that can print/borrow money and operate with a deficit infinitely.

Aerospace is mixed. The military side is still humming along, but the commercial side (where the customers are Delta, Boeing, etc.) is getting decimated. 

[RobertSul]

8 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

 I love Michigan but this minority that protested at the Capitol were pure idiots

COVIDiots

[WestMichigan]

1 hour ago, michsnowfreak said:

 I love Michigan but this minority that protested at the Capitol were pure idiots

That minority came largely from a Facebook group that represents approximately 350000 Michiganders.  While still a minority by definition that is over 3.5% of the state.  That is a pretty good group of people banding together to make a statement.  They are not pure idiots and not stupid as people here are saying.  They want a fair chance to earn a living just like you and me and again as I have said several times before a little common sense.  This virus is nasty.  I agree but is the cure worse than the symptoms?  I can't answer that for you but these people obviously made their choice.  This is a free country and people can make choices.  Denigrating one side constantly does no good.  Let's give them a chance to make their voice heard just like you feel you have a right for your voice to be heard.

[Stebo]

13 minutes ago, WestMichigan said:

That minority came largely from a Facebook group that represents approximately 350000 Michiganders.  While still a minority by definition that is over 3.5% of the state.  That is a pretty good group of people banding together to make a statement.  They are not pure idiots and not stupid as people here are saying.  They want a fair chance to earn a living just like you and me and again as I have said several times before a little common sense.  This virus is nasty.  I agree but is the cure worse than the symptoms?  I can't answer that for you but these people obviously made their choice.  This is a free country and people can make choices.  Denigrating one side constantly does no good.  Let's give them a chance to make their voice heard just like you feel you have a right for your voice to be heard.

Their "choices" blocked an ambulance route to a hospital. I don't want to hear about choices of a very small minority of people who look to have been against the Governor no matter what she did. If these people want all this ultimate freedom to do whatever they want there are 9 states for idiots who have done nothing yet. One of those states SD, because they have done nothing have a massive outbreak at a meat plant. So I don't want to hear about choices of people who are clearly not caring about anyone but themselves.

[Hoosier]

They should have protested less than 10 at a time. 

[Malacka11]

If protesters in Hong Kong can clear routes for first-responders, then it can be done here too. Christ. 

[Stebo]

8 minutes ago, Malacka11 said:

If protesters in Hong Kong can clear routes for first-responders, then it can be done here too. Christ. 

Yeah and that was thousands of people.

[nwohweather]

Regardless what we are seeing is people can’t wait much longer. They may have an extreme stance to protest, but people’s finances are getting rocked by this. Idc if they have take temperatures before entering buildings and require masks of some kind in every indoor setting, this country has to be open by Mothers Day. We have no choice to continue past that

[sokolow]

From the City itself so the usual warnings in re claims by government offices and all that, and recognizing the potential for serious undercounting as we have seen elsewhere, but I get the impression from my wife, given what she’s seeing at work, the CDPH analysis is wholly plausible

A definite sign of the times that it is real hard to straight come out and say “Chicago might have moved with effectiveness, social distancing and SaH appears to worked” without a bunch of caveats and also, “CDPH might be lying but if they are they’re doing a good job of secretly dumping hundreds of victims of pneumonia-like illness straight into mass graves with few stops at the nearby major research hospital’s ED”

[sokolow]

9 hours ago, nwohweather said:

Regardless what we are seeing is people can’t wait much longer. They may have an extreme stance to protest, but people’s finances are getting rocked by this. Idc if they have take temperatures before entering buildings and require masks of some kind in every indoor setting, this country has to be open by Mothers Day. We have no choice to continue past that

Of course we have a choice, or, of course our elected officials have a choice.  They could cut every adult a 1000 dollar check every week of the crisis, instead of just once, maybe, if it gets there, in ??? October ???.  For people still working in essential jobs we call it hazard pay.  We could suspend rent and mortgage payments.  We could just say now everyone’s enrolled in Tricare.  And there’s so many problems with all that but the correct answer regardless of the details is “go big for the little folks” and the response to any objection other than “that’s not enough” is “who gives a fü¢k we’ll sort it out later, we’re doing a bailout for normal people”

 

[WestMichigan]

1 minute ago, sokolow said:

Of course we have a choice, or, of course our elected officials have a choice.  They could cut every adult a 1000 dollar check every week of the crisis, instead of just once, maybe, if it gets there, in ??? October ???.  For people still working in essential jobs we call it hazard pay.  We could suspend rent and mortgage payments.  We could just say now everyone’s enrolled in Tricare.  And there’s so many problems with all that but the correct answer is “who gives a fü¢k we’ll sort it out later, we’re doing a bailout for normal people”

 

There aren't enough tax dollars available even if we taxed at ridiculous rates to support something like that.  Unless you want the government to say give me 100% of your money and I will determine how much you get back then explain how that would work?  That is unless you want to switch to an entirely different form of government and in that case I'm going to pass on that.

[sokolow]

6 minutes ago, WestMichigan said:

There aren't enough tax dollars available even if we taxed at ridiculous rates to support something like that.  Unless you want the government to say give me 100% of your money and I will determine how much you get back then explain how that would work?  That is unless you want to switch to an entirely different form of government and in that case I'm going to pass on that.

Fortunately we wouldn’t have to pay it off all at once, even with our current regressive tax structure.  And we’ve already committed a number in the ballpark of $1000/week per adult for 12 weeks to bailouts.  There was enough money. 

[sokolow]

I want to switch to a form of government where the idled assembly line worker and unemployed waitress and the butcher at the covid contaminated pork plant get their cut of the 2.2 trillion dollars first and then we argue about how much money is left over for bailing out this or that sector of the economy

[on_wx]

The USA needs CERB. The federal government here is giving everyone who's lost their jobs due to the pandemic $2,000/month. They've even updated the eligibility for those who are out of seasonal or contract work or have had their hours cut to part time

 

It doesnt seem right to throw everyone to the wind, no wonder why they're getting restless 

[BuffaloWeather]

21 minutes ago, on_wx said:

The USA needs CERB. The federal government here is giving everyone who's lost their jobs due to the pandemic $2,000/month. They've even updated the eligibility for those who are out of seasonal or contract work or have had their hours cut to part time

 

It doesnt seem right to throw everyone to the wind, no wonder why they're getting restless 

Canada can afford that but somehow the richest country in the world can’t...

[Powerball]

When I see individuals like these protesters blocking ambulances and flying confederate flags (knowing darn well the implication behind it), their anger clearly goes well beyond "Dey terk er jerbs!!!"

Let's call out the huge elephant in the room. The stats show this virus is disproportionately hitting people of a certain ethnicity the hardest, in a city where that ethnicity makes up over 80% of the population.

To them, this group of people and the city they live in are perfectly expendable for their own selfish needs of keeping open a "multi-generation" business that only existed since 2002, or gardening / motorboat racing in snow and 31*F weather, as I'm certain the typical protester at this spectacle didn't have pleasant opinions about the city in question nor the ethnic group in question in thr first place.

As Governor Whitmer succinctly stated, while they're out protesting the stay-at-home order, they may well have just made the pandemic worse and it will now have to be extended even longer (something she was trying to prevent).

I have a disabled, elderly mother in Detroit (I.E. one who would be a prime candidate for contracting COVID-19) who is frightened to death given she's already had multiple health scares. Obviously, she wants this to pass ASAP. So this does hit close to home even for me and forgive me if I don't all that sorry for the protesters who are doing everything to prolong it.

As far as the economic impact, most of us are taking a hit to one extent of another (so what they're experiencing isn't all that special). I've been forced to take a 10% paycut and 2 week furlough myself. It sucks, but I'm not out here defying orders intended to minimize the spread of this virus like some petulant child because I'm upset about it. And the reality is you live in a heavily blue collar state tied to an extremely cyclical industry. Thus, you're always going to be hit harder than others when economic downturns happen (it is what it is). If you don't like it, find another state to live in or another industry/field to work in.

Furthermore, as far as someone bringing up what Canada is doing, I couldn't help but see all of the Trump / Pence posters in the photos. I personally voted for the candidate(s) who would have done a lot more to help them through this tough time economically than a measely one-time $1,200 check (and even push for programs similar to the ones in Canada). Yet, they're still proudly supporting a "leader" and his administration who just orchestrated the largest transfer of wealth in history to the professional / ownership class. So how much can you really do to help folks who insist on voting against their best interests?

Ok, ranting done.

[sokolow]

A friend of mine tells me USAA is applying CARES checks to negative balances and liens

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/usaa-bank-grabs-stimulus-checks-from-military-families/

Which is classic “legal but not ethical” for every bank right now but is particularly scummy and depressing to see from USAA. I sent em a letter telling em i was disappointed and if you are a USAA member please do the same. USAA can collect on those debts later, people need that money now.

[sokolow]

Here is what I sent if you would like a template

****

To the men and women of the USAA leadership,

A friend of mine who is also a USAA member shared with me this article describing USAA using CARES Act stimulus funds to offset charged off debts.

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/usaa-bank-grabs-stimulus-checks-from-military-families/

He was upset, and writes: “This is extremely disappointing behavior from USAA during a global pandemic and massive unemployment. Using CARES Act funds to offset outstanding debts is clearly against the spirit of the Act. While it may not be prohibited under the law, that does not make it moral or ethical.” I agree with his statement.

My family has trusted USAA for decades, and it is disturbing to think USAA’s management team might be derelict in its duty to lead ethically when its members are relying on them most.

Yours,

[Powerball]

While we're still on the subject of the stimulus checks, yesterday the IRS launched a website where you can provide your direct deposit information and track its status:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/get-my-payment-stimulus-checks-irs/index.html

https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment

 

 

[nwohweather]

4 hours ago, sokolow said:

Of course we have a choice, or, of course our elected officials have a choice.  They could cut every adult a 1000 dollar check every week of the crisis, instead of just once, maybe, if it gets there, in ??? October ???.  For people still working in essential jobs we call it hazard pay.  We could suspend rent and mortgage payments.  We could just say now everyone’s enrolled in Tricare.  And there’s so many problems with all that but the correct answer regardless of the details is “go big for the little folks” and the response to any objection other than “that’s not enough” is “who gives a fü¢k we’ll sort it out later, we’re doing a bailout for normal people”

 

You're thinking too personally though. It doesn't matter if you're giving people money, the economy isn't producing anything in that time.  That's the big issue from an economic principle, we need to go back to making things soon

[sokolow]

1 hour ago, nwohweather said:

You're thinking too personally though. It doesn't matter if you're giving people money, the economy isn't producing anything in that time.  That's the big issue from an economic principle, we need to go back to making things soon

Yes and no. I mean sure, there is some place in the vast spectrum of things we make, build, and do between the extremes of “Truck Nutzz, luxury yoga center, and sports mascot” on the one hand and “food, infrastructure-critical utility work, and ventilator tech” on the other where we need to be in terms of producing things.

That’s some point between the things we need right now and the things we want or like. Because of course there are effects that resonate down the supply chain where, I don’t know, theres a company that that went bankrupt which mostly made novelty easter eggs, but also, was a little known subcontractor that made a little plastic widget thats in every god dang lightbulb. And now all America craps in the dark.  Or whatever.

But the big issue right now is ordinary people need to be able to pay rent or their mortgage, buy food, keep their utilities on, keep their car payments up, and keep their insurance.  IIRC those categories there account for something like 70% or more of US household expenditures, especially in the lower earning half.

 

[Hoosier]

7 Midwest states to partner on reopening the economy amid COVID-19 pandemic

 

LANSING, Mich. (AP) — Seven Midwestern governors announced Thursday that they will coordinate on reopening their state economies amid the coronavirus pandemic, after similar pacts were made in the Northeast and on the West Coast.

The latest agreement includes Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Kentucky.

“We look forward to working with experts and taking a fact-based, data-driven approach to reopening our economy in a way that protects families from the spread of COVID-19,” the governors said. “Our No. 1 priority when analyzing when (is) best to reopen our economy is the health and safety of our citizens.”

The Midwestern alliance joins pacts on the West Coast and in the Northeast that were announced this week. All together, the 17 states covered by the pacts are home to nearly half of the country’s population.

“Phasing in sectors of our economy will be most effective when we work together as a region,” said the governors, who include five Democrats — Michigan’s Gretchen Whitmer, Wisconsin’s Tony Evers, Illinois’ J.B. Pritzker, Kentucky’s Andy Beshear — and two Republicans, Mike DeWine of Ohio and Erick Holcomb of Indiana. They stressed it does not mean every state will take the same steps at the same time.

Ohio’s role in the agreement was unclear. A spokesman for DeWine said his comments from Wednesday still stand.

“We have no formal agreements or compacts at this time,” Dan Tierney said Wednesday. But he said DeWine is in regular communication with governors of surrounding states to share information, strategy and resources.

 

https://fox59.com/news/7-midwest-states-including-indiana-to-partner-on-reopening-the-economy-amid-covid-19-pandemic/

[buckeye]

5 hours ago, Powerball said:

When I see individuals like these protesters blocking ambulances and flying confederate flags (knowing darn well the implication behind it), their anger clearly goes well beyond "Dey terk er jerbs!!!"

Let's call out the huge elephant in the room. The stats show this virus is disproportionately hitting people of a certain ethnicity the hardest, in a city where that ethnicity makes up over 80% of the population.

To them, this group of people and the city they live in are perfectly expendable for their own selfish needs of keeping open a "multi-generation" business that only existed since 2002, or gardening / motorboat racing in snow and 31*F weather, as I'm certain the typical protester at this spectacle didn't have pleasant opinions about the city in question nor the ethnic group in question in thr first place.

As Governor Whitmer succinctly stated, while they're out protesting the stay-at-home order, they may well have just made the pandemic worse and it will now have to be extended even longer (something she was trying to prevent).

I have a disabled, elderly mother in Detroit (I.E. one who would be a prime candidate for contracting COVID-19) who is frightened to death given she's already had multiple health scares. Obviously, she wants this to pass ASAP. So this does hit close to home even for me and forgive me if I don't all that sorry for the protesters who are doing everything to prolong it.

As far as the economic impact, most of us are taking a hit to one extent of another (so what they're experiencing isn't all that special). I've been forced to take a 10% paycut and 2 week furlough myself. It sucks, but I'm not out here defying orders intended to minimize the spread of this virus like some petulant child because I'm upset about it. And the reality is you live in a heavily blue collar state tied to an extremely cyclical industry. Thus, you're always going to be hit harder than others when economic downturns happen (it is what it is). If you don't like it, find another state to live in or another industry/field to work in.

Furthermore, as far as someone bringing up what Canada is doing, I couldn't help but see all of the Trump / Pence posters in the photos. I personally voted for the candidate(s) who would have done a lot more to help them through this tough time economically than a measely one-time $1,200 check (and even push for programs similar to the ones in Canada). Yet, they're still proudly supporting a "leader" and his administration who just orchestrated the largest transfer of wealth in history to the professional / ownership class. So how much can you really do to help folks who insist on voting against their best interests?

Ok, ranting done.

Rant done?  Good.  My fcking turn.  

If that's ALL you're going through right now....you are one of the lucky ones.    The truth is there are 22 million people laid off for starters and a vast majority already live pay check to pay check.  They're white, they're black, they're professionals, they're blue collar, factory workers and small business owners.  They have children, mortgages, health issues....who knows...but certainly not you...you have no idea what these people are going through.  The fact that you and others here feel the need to interject race and throw the race card at people who you've never met or seen before while you assign motives to their actions is disgusting.   It reveals more about you then any fantasy shade you choose to  project on them.   Just as we have been so easily cowed into quivering inside of our closed homes and shutting down the businesses we have spent our lives building....now we're perfectly fine with nuking the first ammendment.   It really is amazing.  Some of you people need a swift kick in the a** and a reminder of who you are and the country you are citizens of.

You  berate a blue collar guy at a protest who just lost his job and livihood because according to you,  it's the fault of his stupid life choices.  Yet there's no problem collapsing the economy and thereby killing off far more people... all in the name of heroic covid patients, the majority who've spent the last 30 years of their lives stuffing their faces with twinkies and smoking their way into pre-existing medical conditions.  Before you gasp with faux shock....all I'm doing is illustrating the other side of the cavalier argument YOU presented.  Today they protest as you shame them, tomorrow they put a fcking gun to their temple.  

We also need to stop this faux narrative that defending the economy is disregarding lives...it's just an attempt to use shame as a weapon against anyone who dares question the state's orders.  There are many studies dating back to the 1970's that show anywhere between 1000 and 35000 deaths for every 1% increase in unemployment.  That's not taking into consideration an unprecedented collapse like we are now experiencing.   

Much of the economic damage has already become systemic and continues to metastize.  It will last well beyond these ridiculous draconian shut-down measures.  People have been conditioned by fear and shamed into compliance.  They are still going to be afraid to fly, sit in a crowded restaurant, or go to a crowded mall for quite a long time which will extend the economic misery.  The amount of death as a result of the economic collapse will dwarf covid deaths.  This is just the beginning.  Many small businesses will never re-open, the housing market will most likely collapse,  the credit market will follow, and then the banks.  Believing the government can print its way out of this is going to show a lot people, very quickly, the 'joys' of socialism. 

Right now this may seem like nothing more than watching a netflix documentary while having to take a couple of weeks off without pay.  That's how a lot of the posters in this thread seem to act.  But in the end, it doesn't matter who you are, who you work for, or where you live, the economic collapse is your biggest threat not the virus.   Yet many here would rather worship the government and obediently follow policy  based on virus models whose verification scores make a 1997 dgex 10 day snowfall forecast look solid.   We will obey like good sheeple.   Good luck if you're counting on the government and their, "we're all in this together", mantra . 

As far as those stupid white trash people blocking the roads in Michigan...they're light years ahead in reality and clarity.   Is all lost?  Maybe, maybe not, but if not it's because we're only midway thru April.   

How's that for a rant

Go ahead and throw the weenies and flame away....I'd expect nothing less and quite frankly don't give a sh*t

[Powerball]

30 minutes ago, buckeye said:

Rant done?  Good.  My fcking turn.  

If that's ALL you're going through right now....you are one of the lucky ones.    The truth is there are 22 million people laid off for starters and a vast majority already live pay check to pay check.  They're white, they're black, they're professionals, they're blue collar, factory workers and small business owners.  They have children, mortgages, health issues....who knows...but certainly not you...you have no idea what these people are going through.  The fact that you and others here feel the need to interject race and throw the race card at people who you've never met or seen before while you assign motives to their actions is disgusting.   It reveals more about you then any fantasy shade you choose to  project on them.   Just as we have been so easily cowed into quivering inside of our closed homes and shutting down the businesses we have spent our lives building....now we're perfectly fine with nuking the first ammendment.   It really is amazing.  Some of you people need a swift kick in the a** and a reminder of who you are and the country you are citizens of.

You  berate a blue collar guy at a protest who just lost his job and livihood because according to you,  it's the fault of his stupid life choices.  Yet there's no problem collapsing the economy and thereby killing off far more people... all in the name of heroic covid patients, the majority who've spent the last 30 years of their lives stuffing their faces with twinkies and smoking their way into pre-existing medical conditions.  Before you gasp with faux shock....all I'm doing is illustrating the other side of the cavalier argument YOU presented.  Today they protest as you shame them, tomorrow they put a fcking gun to their temple.  

We also need to stop this faux narrative that defending the economy is disregarding lives...it's just an attempt to use shame as a weapon against anyone who dares question the state's orders.  There are many studies dating back to the 1970's that show anywhere between 1000 and 35000 deaths for every 1% increase in unemployment.  That's not taking into consideration an unprecedented collapse like we are now experiencing.   

Much of the economic damage has already become systemic and continues to metastize.  It will last well beyond these ridiculous draconian shut-down measures.  People have been conditioned by fear and shamed into compliance.  They are still going to be afraid to fly, sit in a crowded restaurant, or go to a crowded mall for quite a long time which will extend the economic misery.  The amount of death as a result of the economic collapse will dwarf covid deaths.  This is just the beginning.  Many small businesses will never re-open, the housing market will most likely collapse,  the credit market will follow, and then the banks.  Believing the government can print its way out of this is going to show a lot people, very quickly, the 'joys' of socialism. 

Right now this may seem like nothing more than watching a netflix documentary while having to take a couple of weeks off without pay.  That's how a lot of the posters in this thread seem to act.  But in the end, it doesn't matter who you are, who you work for, or where you live, the economic collapse is your biggest threat not the virus.   Yet many here would rather worship the government and obediently follow policy  based on virus models whose verification scores make a 1997 dgex 10 day snowfall forecast look solid.   We will obey like good sheeple.   Good luck if you're counting on the government and their, "we're all in this together", mantra . 

As far as those stupid white trash people blocking the roads in Michigan...they're light years ahead in reality and clarity.   Is all lost?  Maybe, maybe not, but if not it's because we're only midway thru April.   

How's that for a rant

Go ahead and throw the weenies and flame away....I'd expect nothing less and quite frankly don't give a sh*t

You're entitled to rant.

I stand by what I said.

1. I find it very hard to feel sorry for folks who still enthusiastically support an administration who's acting their best interest. Things

2. These protesters interjected race into this when they were proudly waving a symbolism of racism/slavery (with not a single POC around, I might add).

3. They're acting selfishly by punishing everyone else with the defiance of the governor's order for their poor decisions (whether in terms of voting or choices for making a living).

EDIT: Also, you complain about socialism, which is ironic because assuming the kindest of reasons, these people are upset because they're unable to support themselves. Yet, a stronger social safety net, such as the one across the border in Canada, would have given these folks the support they need to weather this crisis. Thus, we wouldn't have to be choosing between hundreds of thousands people dying from the plague or people suffering from an economic collapse.

Yet, they voted otherwise and now here we are...

[UMB WX]

 

3 hours ago, sokolow said:

Yes and no. I mean sure, there is some place in the vast spectrum of things we make, build, and do between the extremes of “Truck Nutzz, luxury yoga center, and sports mascot” on the one hand and “food, infrastructure-critical utility work, and ventilator tech” on the other where we need to be in terms of producing things.

That’s some point between the things we need right now and the things we want or like. Because of course there are effects that resonate down the supply chain where, I don’t know, theres a company that that went bankrupt which mostly made novelty easter eggs, but also, was a little known subcontractor that made a little plastic widget thats in every god dang lightbulb. And now all America craps in the dark.  Or whatever.

But the big issue right now is ordinary people need to be able to pay rent or their mortgage, buy food, keep their utilities on, keep their car payments up, and keep their insurance.  IIRC those categories there account for something like 70% or more of US household expenditures, especially in the lower earning half.

 

Canada really stepped up to the plate for their citizens. all levels of govt are listening to their public health officials and their recommendations - along with strong collaboration between the federal govt and the provinces as well as between the provinces themselves.  govt implemented fiscal measures to help canadian citizens and businesses who've been impacted by Covid19 get by for at least 4 months. there is a strong sense of community and feeling that they are all in this together.  

Then there is US. incompetent leadership, anti-science and this horrific prioritization of the economic well-being of the .01% over the the health and lives of the 99%

one time payment of $1200??  We spent trillions on useless wars.. spent trillions in 2008 bailing out banks and other industries for the 2008 crisis.. spent billions bailing out airlines a few years back that took the funds to buy back stocks instead of investing in their workforce, ect.  and the list of corporate bailouts go's a mile long. yet when it comes down to it, is unwilling to spend barely anything helping out its own citizens who lost their jobs due to a pandemic?

[sokolow]

I mean, @buckeye

You aren’t wrong that the immiseration and shortened lives, the decades of worse health outcomes — especially for minority communities — the suicides and despair, the upheaval, is going to be an excess mortality similar in magnitude to pandemic itself.  It will be generational devastation. But if that’s what comes to pass, its what our elected officials and business leadership choose for us to suffer.

No joke this isn’t even about “socialism”; no-one in this thread has brought up, say, taking over Boeing as a state enterprise though maybe we should

It’s not even as radical as New Deal capitalism or the war economy of the 40s.  We don’t have physical infrastructure getting destroyed, we don’t have to build countless thousands of combat aircraft and a whole new merchant fleet, we don’t have to build 40 aircraft carriers of different types and roles, we don’t have to invent a superweapon using barely understood physics and brand new industrial processes, we don’t have to ship millions of teens and gigatons of war crap overseas so young men can die and be maimed crushing Hitler’s and Tojo’s legions

All we have to do is pay people who aren’t doing infrastructure critical jobs to stay home for a total of what? 12 weeks in two or three blocks? until we have enough kits and appropriate monitoring protocols to adequately test and trace.

[beavis1729]

19 minutes ago, Powerball said:

You're entitled to rant.

I stand by what I said.

1. I find it very hard to feel sorry for folks who still enthusiastically support an administration who's acting their best interest. Things

2. These protesters interjected race into this when they were proudly waving a symbolism of racism/slavery (with not a single POC around, I might add).

3. They're acting selfishly by punishing everyone else with the defiance of the governor's order for their poor decisions (whether in terms of voting or choices for making a living).

EDIT: Also, you complain about socialism, which is ironic because assuming the kindest of reasons, these people are upset because they're unable to support themselves. Yet, a stronger social safety net, such as the one across the border in Canada, would have given these folks the support they need to weather this crisis. Thus, we wouldn't have to be choosing between hundreds of thousands people dying from the plague or people suffering from an economic collapse.

Yet, they voted otherwise and now here we are...

This is the main point.  Buckeye - I (and many others, I'm sure) do understand where you are coming from...but what does it say about us as a country/society/culture when there are so many deaths that occur for every 1pp increase in the unemployment rate?  That is the issue.  It's not about hard-core idealistic socialism...but we really need to stop with this "every man for himself" attitude in this country, and create communities where we all do what's best for the greater good, not competing viciously against one another for every nickle and dime of income so that we can barely survive until the next paycheck.  What kind of a life is that?  Why is our health care tied to employment in the first place?  Why don't we have paid sick leave like other countries have?  What do we value??  Sure, these policies would mean a higher cost of goods and services...but isn't that a reasonable price to pay for security in health and wellness?

COVID-19 is exposing so many of these underlying issues in our culture.  Of course an individual's own business that they spent blood, sweat, and tears on is important and valuable and should be protected as much as possible.  But in a country as wealthy as we are, why can't we pull out all the economic stops to help every single person in this country...knowing that it's an emergency that will better position us for the long-term.  Basically, what Powerball referenced.  When 40% of people live paycheck to paycheck, $1,200 doesn't help much.  Yes, these emergency measures may mean higher taxes or other challenges down the road...but it's an emergency.  Why don't we all work with each other and collectively sacrifice for the greater good?  We need to stop the "you vs. me" attitude that is toxic to this country.