March 2020 disc/obs

[Connecticut Appleman]

44 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

I knew it helped.l with traction. But I thought most got away from sand due to the environment issues it causes. 

The sand does temporarily help with traction, but after 30 cars or so go over it, depending on speed, there is no sand left in the wheel paths.  I have done a lot of work on this for CT and as chloride levels in ground water continue to increase, it is amazing to me how many people think of the good ole days of sand not realizing that there was salt mixed in with it.  Without the salt, it would have frozen in the back of the truck.  

The sand is an environmental headache as they clog rivers and streams and generate hundreds of thousands of tons of sweeping that need to be disposed of which is not a cheap or simple problem.

[tamarack]

44 minutes ago, dryslot said:

Sodium Chloride (salt) is more environmentally unfriendly then sand, Calcium is next as it will eat your car frame as well as fuel and brake lines, Besides the fact that from about 5°F or below, Salt is useless on roadways hence the mix with sand.

I think the mix on highways is 16:1, enough salt to encourage melting if temps aren't too cold.  On the logging roads it's 50:1, just enough to keep the sand from freezing, as melting is undesirable.  Only used on hills and bad curves; the straight and level is for hauling fast and heavy.

 

[CoastalWx]

8 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Wheres T blizzard with our daily ICON update,holy crap

?

[MJO812]

20 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

?

Its west . Rain to snow for SNE.

[Ginx snewx]

29 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

?

You scared him off with your PTSD. Oh I see he is in the other thread

[CoastalWx]

10 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

You scared him off with your PTSD. Oh I see he is in the other thread

I didn’t see a huge difference to be honest.

[MJO812]

Big storm is gone on the gfs for next weekend

[Dan76]

Shocking

[MJO812]

Just now, Dan76 said:

Shocking

Still shows some snow

[snowman19]

3 minutes ago, MJO812 said:

Big storm is gone on the gfs for next weekend

No shit! You don’t say? What a surprise, so out of character for the GFS to do something like that....

[Dan76]

No 1990 da ja vue all over again?

[78Blizzard]

That 12z GFS run was meant to be the final FU this winter to all of us in SNE.

[SnowFeen1]

4 minutes ago, 78Blizzard said:

That 12z GFS run was meant to be the final FU this winter to all of us in SNE.

And mid Atlantic. We all got screwed at. Least you guys got something December 1st and 2nd

[Damage In Tolland]

1 hour ago, Connecticut Appleman said:

The sand does temporarily help with traction, but after 30 cars or so go over it, depending on speed, there is no sand left in the wheel paths.  I have done a lot of work on this for CT and as chloride levels in ground water continue to increase, it is amazing to me how many people think of the good ole days of sand not realizing that there was salt mixed in with it.  Without the salt, it would have frozen in the back of the truck.  

The sand is an environmental headache as they clog rivers and streams and generate hundreds of thousands of tons of sweeping that need to be disposed of which is not a cheap or simple problem.

Yes. Sand is as bad if not worse environmentally than salt. There’s a reason why even 25 years ago NY state only used salt 

[Damage In Tolland]

1 hour ago, tamarack said:

Dixmont hills are indeed snow catchers, and other things as well.  In March 1984 the communications towers atop the hill collected 4-6" of ice and many didn't survive.  I think that area also affects the 160s section of I-95 where so many crashes occur.

As for sand vs all salt, if I'm driving during the storm I prefer sand - the liquid salt just makes things more slippery.  If I'm coming 12+ hours after final flakes, the salted road is apt to be a lot nicer. 

I saw those towers up there. I googled and it looks like they’re about 1300’. Just driving thru there seeing the topography and East/west facing hills I could tell that’s a weenie spot 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, Connecticut Appleman said:

The sand does temporarily help with traction, but after 30 cars or so go over it, depending on speed, there is no sand left in the wheel paths.  I have done a lot of work on this for CT and as chloride levels in ground water continue to increase, it is amazing to me how many people think of the good ole days of sand not realizing that there was salt mixed in with it.  Without the salt, it would have frozen in the back of the truck.  

The sand is an environmental headache as they clog rivers and streams and generate hundreds of thousands of tons of sweeping that need to be disposed of which is not a cheap or simple problem.

Yeah we use sand almost exclusively at the ski resort but then we take the huge snowbanks at end of season and push them back into the parking lots to melt, to recollect the sand.  We then have a lot of heavy equipment sweep and collect the sand, which then gets reused the next winter.  There are numerous catch basins too to keep runoff sand from reaching the waterways.  It’s a pretty expensive program though with a ton of man hours to clean up properly.

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

40 minutes ago, 78Blizzard said:

That 12z GFS run was meant to be the final FU this winter to all of us in SNE.

Wha?

[mreaves]

14 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah we use sand almost exclusively at the ski resort but then we take the huge snowbanks at end of season and push them back into the parking lots to melt, to recollect the sand.  We then have a lot of heavy equipment sweep and collect the sand, which then gets reused the next winter.  There are numerous catch basins too to keep runoff sand from reaching the waterways.  It’s a pretty expensive program though with a ton of man hours to clean up properly.

VT is really strict about runoff into steams and brooks. Anytime you come near a stream you have to have containment plans and silt screening. It seems to me that most sand is used on dirt roads Though some is used during ice events

[powderfreak]

Man out west isn’t even fair compared to back east.  Weather is either beautiful or snowing.  Sunshine and 40F and nothing seems to melt because the dew is like 5F.  

Meandering around Park City right now with 3-4 feet on the ground and mansions everywhere. 

[Damage In Tolland]

25 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah we use sand almost exclusively at the ski resort but then we take the huge snowbanks at end of season and push them back into the parking lots to melt, to recollect the sand.  We then have a lot of heavy equipment sweep and collect the sand, which then gets reused the next winter.  There are numerous catch basins too to keep runoff sand from reaching the waterways.  It’s a pretty expensive program though with a ton of man hours to clean up properly.

Is it just a cost thing? It just seems with the $$$ Stowe has and generates, the last place that should be using sand is them. That’s mind boggling. I recall as a kid , I grew up in Vernon on a cul de sac. My dad hated the sand they’d dump and would go out with a broom, shovel and wheelbarrow and clean up the whole thing. I guess it’s no shock why I’m so OCD. I just cannot stand the sand and grit getting inside the vehicles, on the mats, staining shoes . I shake out the mats every time I get in. I just couldn’t believe they were still using it so extensively up here. I’m in Portland now at Sebago brewing after checking into hotel and I don’t see any sand here .

[powderfreak]

4 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Is it just a cost thing? It just seems with the $$$ Stowe has and generates, the last place that should be using sand is them. That’s mind boggling. I recall as a kid , I grew up in Vernon on a cul de sac. My dad hated the sand they’d dump and would go out with a broom, shovel and wheelbarrow and clean up the whole thing. I guess it’s no shock why I’m so OCD. I just cannot stand the sand and grit getting inside the vehicles, on the mats, staining shoes . I shake out the mats every time I get in. I just couldn’t believe they were still using it so extensively up here. I’m in Portland now at Sebago brewing after checking into hotel and I don’t see any sand here .

I’m sure it’s a state thing.  Given the volume of material they need to put down in the parking lots and resort roadways, I’m not sure all that salt going into the local waterways is any better.  At least with sand they can contain it with silt catch basins and various methods.  I mean the spread for traction every single day all winter.  

My guess is it is something the state of VT  has told them to do vs just the cheapest method.  Like hey you can put all this sand down and then use a ton of money to pick it back up.  I think sand is more costly as they spend weeks cleaning it up.

[MJO812]

Can anything phase right this winter?

Smfh

[dryslot]

17 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Is it just a cost thing? It just seems with the $$$ Stowe has and generates, the last place that should be using sand is them. That’s mind boggling. I recall as a kid , I grew up in Vernon on a cul de sac. My dad hated the sand they’d dump and would go out with a broom, shovel and wheelbarrow and clean up the whole thing. I guess it’s no shock why I’m so OCD. I just cannot stand the sand and grit getting inside the vehicles, on the mats, staining shoes . I shake out the mats every time I get in. I just couldn’t believe they were still using it so extensively up here. I’m in Portland now at Sebago brewing after checking into hotel and I don’t see any sand here .

You won't get to bang all of the 160+ Micro Breweries up here but it sounds like you been to a few of them.

[SJonesWX]

6 hours ago, dryslot said:

Need a tissue for your issue?

Yes but i don’t want to cause an issue by taking your tissue

[Damage In Tolland]

19 minutes ago, dryslot said:

You won't get to bang all of the 160+ Micro Breweries up here but it sounds like you been to a few of them.

Dude.. if I lived here.. I’d be broke, fat and liver less. The amount of good beer here is sick. This place was 2 minute walk from hotel. It’s valet only parking, so I didn’t have a choice really but to walk and eat. Cool place here 

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

33 minutes ago, MJO812 said:

Can anything phase right this winter?

Smfh

Might not need to. Cutoff in early dec and maybe a cutoff or two to close out the season...just depends if we can get lucky on one. Of course we bet against it.

[dryslot]

15 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Dude.. if I lived here.. I’d be broke, fat and liver less. The amount of good beer here is sick. This place was 2 minute walk from hotel. It’s valet only parking, so I didn’t have a choice really but to walk and eat. Cool place here 

The old port is a great place especially in the summer, Been to Sebago Brewing, Bissell Bros, Maine Beer Co, Flight Deck, Allagash, Bear Bones and i could go on and on, It doesn't end.

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

13 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Dude.. if I lived here.. I’d be broke, fat and liver less. The amount of good beer here is sick. This place was 2 minute walk from hotel. It’s valet only parking, so I didn’t have a choice really but to walk and eat. Cool place here 

How do you function drinking so much? I can drink a few good beers one night, get a little silly, but then not even look at one for another month or two. I have some in my fridge from the last play date my kids had...the saturday before the SB. No desire. I guess I’m just not a big drinker, it’s a waste of carbs too. 

[dryslot]

15 minutes ago, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

How do you function drinking so much? I can drink a few good beers one night, get a little silly, but then not even look at one for another month or two. I have some in my fridge from the last play date my kids had...the saturday before the SB. No desire. I guess I’m just not a big drinker, it’s a waste of carbs too. 

Vapes, Tinctures, Edibles and Beers oh my.

[Connecticut Appleman]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

I’m sure it’s a state thing.  Given the volume of material they need to put down in the parking lots and resort roadways, I’m not sure all that salt going into the local waterways is any better.  At least with sand they can contain it with silt catch basins and various methods.  I mean the spread for traction every single day all winter.  

My guess is it is something the state of VT  has told them to do vs just the cheapest method.  Like hey you can put all this sand down and then use a ton of money to pick it back up.  I think sand is more costly as they spend weeks cleaning it up.

Recycling sand on roadways is just about impossible as traffic running over it tends to round the sand particles which makes it act like marbles and does not help as much with traction.  It also creates a ton of very fine particles which turns to mud.

Sand/salt mix works well on gravel roads - particularly right after application as the dissolution of the sodium chloride is endothermic (absorbs heat) and can cause the road to ice up temporarily.

Every state has different application rates, but the use of straight salt does increase the amount of salt used some, but it is not as much as most people think, since the salt in the sand was doing the work for snow and ice removal so you just had to apply a lot more material to get the desired affect.

When CT switched from a sand/salt (de-icing) mix on state roads to all salt (anti-icing), the number of crashes occurring on roads with snow, slush or ice was significantly decreased.  The idea of anti-icing is preventing the bond of the snow pack to the pavement which ultimately requires less salt to get the pavement bare at the end of the storm.  The idea is to maintain a layer of brine between the snow and the road.  For salt to be "melt snow", it needs to be a brine - dry salt does not affect ice.

And for what its worth - salt (sodium, calcium or magnesium chloride) does not damage asphalt pavement.  The same can not be said for Portland Cement concrete.

I will apologize for the dissertation on winter operations - it is something that I have spent a lot of time on.