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January 2020 Mid/Long Term Discussion


nj2va
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If the monster EPO ridge on all guidance is correct we do not "NEED" the AO/NAO to tank...but we do need it to pull back towards neutral or slightly positive which is what the EPS and GEPS is showing. The GEFS keeps swinging wildly between flipping the NAM negative or not but its been a hot mess lately and should be given much less weight until it starts showing some consistency.  The GEPS and EPS especially have been much more consistent with a common progression/theme to the pattern evolution.  The EPS idea of a neutral AO combined with that EPO ridge and some PNA ridging is just fine.  It's not a HECS look but its a cold look and if we keep getting waves coming across with the active STJ and I would take my chances in that pattern.  

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1 minute ago, frd said:

Brilliant, because too many times in the past we have had the rug pulled form under us. 

Also, I am in it for a sustainable period of cold, along with snow as well please. 

Too many transient cold periods,  I hope we lock into a longer period of cold and storm potential. 

some people KNOW what's going to happen...I am not one of them.  

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18 minutes ago, WxUSAF said:

I think the MJO wave makes it to phase 8 eventually. Amplitude TBD. Not sure if it makes it beyond that, but dying in the COD after phase 7/8 wouldn’t be the worst thing. The very long range MJO progs have a new wave developing over Africa and the western IO in early February, which is also a cold phase 1/2 for us. But that’s way way out there. 

Is this YOUR call............

:lol:

 

I'm just playing around w/ yall.  We all just need to keep it real as we see better days ahead,  but one needs to proceed w/ caution, cause were always 1 indice away from crappin the bed....

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There is some divergence in the long range regarding the PNA.  The euro is trending towards a PNA ridge...where the GEPS and GFS continue a -PNA.  If the NAO remains positive and we get an EPO ridge (all 3 agree on that)  I would actually rather a -PNA.  2015 was a great example of a -EPO+PNA+NAO working but there are more examples of that pattern failing. 

Feb 2015

feb2015.png.4523031e695d6c4602f6acb60c7eb663.png

Feb 1995 AFTER the one snowfall early in the month that took place BEFORE the EPO ridge set up.

1062592048_RestofFeb1995.gif.361ac5238129f68c54b0275145dcd185.gif

I could show more examples but frankly 2015 was an anomaly...historically a full latitude PNA/EPO ridge with a +NAO is a dry progressive pattern and when storms do happen they tend to have to amplify so much to come up they end up cutting.  

On the other hand...there are more examples of a -EPO/-PNA/+NAO pattern working.  The key would be the depth of the trough and the alignment.

Best example of a win with that look...

Feb 2003

Feb2003.png.27de49833ea7fdf59b26ec2919f2f2c9.png

An example where our area did OK...but the best results were just North

Feb 1994

Feb1994.png.166823257bc3918dd8dfdc96e46f0608.png

An example of a fail in that look

Feb 1989

Feb1989.png.6a09f6e918b5216a5528d91fbf5ec425.png

You can clearly see the depth of the trough determined the outcome.  1989 the trough was simply not deep enough to keep the boundary south of us.  1994 the boundary ended up right through our region and 2003...well we all remember that.  But there are more examples of that pattern leading to a snowy outcome here than the 2015 EPO/PNA ridge look.  

All of this is predicated on the NAO remaining positive.  If the NAO goes negative either look suddenly becomes favorable and none of this matters.  

The details of all of this remain outside reliable forecast range...this is just to give a profile of what the different options look like.  But a SW to NE oriented trough through North America under an EPO ridge with a suppressed SE ridge is a very good look to get progressive waves running at us with cold available, provided the trough ends up suppressed enough by the EPO ridge.  The full latitude western ridge look has more mixed results with a couple "wins" March 1993 and Feb 2015 to name some, but a lot of total fails also.  

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1 minute ago, pasnownut said:

Verbatim you see how we can still manage to lose even though things are "better".  

Reminder that while it probably verifies (even though i dont believe it)....its an Op run at 10 days out. :P

Huh?  It shows frozen within 2 weeks.  Considering where we were just 2 days ago, I’m not sure how this is a loss.

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1 minute ago, stormtracker said:

Huh?  It shows frozen within 2 weeks.  Considering where we were just 2 days ago, I’m not sure how this is a loss.

Long range OP and all, but verbatim thats several inches of snow followed by several hours of icing then dry slot.

Sign me up please.

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6 minutes ago, stormtracker said:

Huh?  It shows frozen within 2 weeks.  Considering where we were just 2 days ago, I’m not sure how this is a loss.

I couldnt agree more.....but some will see the rain and call it just another way to fail....

 

we all know who they are

J

I

 

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11 minutes ago, C.A.P.E. said:

Interesting. Snow/ice to rain look.

 

Ensembles have already been clueing in on the 19th and low and behold that’s what the Op throws out. 

And snow-ice-rain is a very plausible outcome in the longwave pattern late next week.

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Getting way too ahead of myself, but I'm also keeping in the back of my mind that if the Ravens win this week, they will be playing in Baltimore at 3 PM on Sunday the 19th, so being that were looking at some potential around that time, I'm extra glued to what might happen

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4 minutes ago, WxUSAF said:

Ensembles have already been clueing in on the 19th and low and behold that’s what the Op throws out. 

And snow-ice-rain is a very plausible outcome in the longwave pattern late next week.

Yep, we'll prob see numerous versions of what the GFS just spit out. Perfectly fits the lr pattern on the ens. All options on the table of course but if there is a precip event during the d9-12 period it will likely not be all snow but could still be plenty of frozen. Beyond that (and way out there in fantasyland) things could evolve towards a clean snow setup. So far everything remains on track for a return to winter sometime around the 18th. 

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14 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

Beyond that (and way out there in fantasyland) things could evolve towards a clean snow setup

 

Another thing to keep in mind is whether we get a surprise transient NAO block as previously it was in a couple Euro Control runs. 

 

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