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December 2019 Discussion


Torch Tiger
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5 minutes ago, OceanStWx said:

Looks like we're in for some wild swings.

PV streamer drifting across the country and it all depends on how the northern stream captures it. Could be a cutoff for Florida or Nova Scotia.

Might I ask a question....I see the word PV/PV streamer (used in your description) term used in here with this discussion over the last few days.  If there hasn’t been a SSW event yet...why /how is the PV getting down into the U.S.? 

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Just now, WinterWolf said:

Might I ask a question....I see the word PV/PV streamer (used in your description) term used in here with this discussion over the last few days.  If there hasn’t been a SSW event yet...why /how is the PV getting down into the U.S.? 

Different PV. This is not the polar vortex, but potential vorticity. 

High potential voriticity induces cyclonic flow in the low levels, so can enhance low pressure systems. High potential vorticity is also typically associated with stratospheric air, so when people talk about trop folds these are big potential vorticity anomlies in the upper to mid levels of the atmosphere. 

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2 minutes ago, OceanStWx said:

Different PV. This is not the polar vortex, but potential vorticity. 

High potential voriticity induces cyclonic flow in the low levels, so can enhance low pressure systems. High potential vorticity is also typically associated with stratospheric air, so when people talk about trop folds these are big potential vorticity anomlies in the upper to mid levels of the atmosphere. 

Ahhh...thank you for that clarification.  That makes more sense now. Appreciated.

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1 minute ago, WinterWolf said:

Ahhh...thank you for that clarification.  That makes more sense now. Appreciated.

You can think of it as a strong s/w too. Usually they can be co-located together. I don't find PV to be a game changer, but it's just another cool way at viewing things.

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5 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

You can think of it as a strong s/w too. Usually they can be co-located together. I don't find PV to be a game changer, but it's just another cool way at viewing things.

I find that it can highlight the more subtle waves better than traditional vorticity maps can. Especially warm season stuff.

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1 minute ago, OceanStWx said:

I find that it can highlight the more subtle waves better than traditional vorticity maps can. Especially warm season stuff.

I know sometimes for convection if you're looking for something subtle to get lift going, or in the tropics when the steering currents are tough to visualize, it helps.  Any good sites for that? I usually have a couple of ones that I normally look at. 

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5 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

You can think of it as a strong s/w too. Usually they can be co-located together. I don't find PV to be a game changer, but it's just another cool way at viewing things.

The strong shortwave idea maybe even makes more sense to me as an untrained/uneducated layman.  So the PV(potential vorticity)perhaps can help strengthen the initial S/W even further??  Is this right? 

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Just now, WinterWolf said:

The strong shortwave idea maybe even makes more sense to me as an untrained/uneducated layman.  So the PV(potential vorticity)perhaps can help strengthen the initial S/W even further??  Is this right? 

I only mentioned that because it can be confusing. Usually a strong s/w may have a high PV intrusion by nature. You can also get PV by strong latent heat from convection. If you were to look at a cross section from the infamous 12/9/05 storm, you had strong stratospheric intrusion of PV aloft and at the surface from latent heat. Without getting too complicated, both acted to lower heights ahead of it and induce rapid cyclogenesis. I'm definitely not well versed in the topic, but that's the basic idea.

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3 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

I only mentioned that because it can be confusing. Usually a strong s/w may have a high PV intrusion by nature. You can also get PV by strong latent heat from convection. If you were to look at a cross section from the infamous 12/9/05 storm, you had strong stratospheric intrusion of PV aloft and at the surface from latent heat. Without getting too complicated, both acted to lower heights ahead of it and induce rapid cyclogenesis. I'm definitely not well versed in the topic, but that's the basic idea.

Ok Good enough..thanks Scott.  Definitely Makes for A lil better understanding. 

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Just now, moneypitmike said:

How crazy would that be.....some folks near 60" on the month (counting Tuesday and if I did my arithmetic right).  Imagine the pack had we not evaporated the goods from our prior storms.

Yeah if that map verified, hubbdave would be around 60". ORH would be well into the 50-55" range. 

Always fun to dream. Long ways to go on next weekend's threat though. At least we've got it being picked up across multiple sources of guidance. 

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6 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah if that map verified, hubbdave would be around 60". ORH would be well into the 50-55" range. 

Always fun to dream. Long ways to go on next weekend's threat though. At least we've got it being picked up across multiple sources of guidance. 

You mean it's too soon to lock it in?  :)

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Just now, CoastalWx said:

It doesn't look like a sleet setup, it looks more realistic based on 925mb temps. The storm sort of wraps in some warmer air, before it washes out and cools off in the comma head.

Yea, I didn't bother analyzing day 7-8 soundings, but that vendor reflects thermals more accurately in snow maps.

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