Occasional Thoughts on Climate Change

[LibertyBell]

1 hour ago, George001 said:

Absolutely, significantly more aggressive action needs to be taken to combat climate change. People bitch about “alarmists”, but the reality is that the earth is warming at a rate in line with the most aggressive climate models. People tend to be short sighted. The climate crisis is a consequence of the pursuit of instant gratification above all else. It’s easier to live in denial than to try to be part of the solution. Near-term sacrifices will have to be made to combat climate change, and people aren’t willing to accept that. I get it, instant gratification feels good. But in the long term, it’s not worth it.

It’s not going to be good for the economy at first if we take these drastic actions, and it’s going to be a major inconvenience in many of our personal lives. However, that is not a valid excuse to refuse to take action. The inconvenience we will experience in the near term due to extremely aggressive regulations is nothing compared to the damage caused by AGW in the long run. 

It's like delaying chemotherapy until the absolute last moment because you're afraid of side effects.  But not thinking about how much worse a quickly spreading cancer is.

 

[Typhoon Tip]

2 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

It's like delaying chemotherapy until the absolute last moment because you're afraid of side effects.  But not thinking about how much worse a quickly spreading cancer is.

 

I think denial has a lot of inertia in the system actually… I don’t think fear is really as much of a factor. Fear hasn’t really entered the equation yet because people still cannot directly see or hear or feel or taste or touch climate change. That’s the way the human psyche is designed through the crucible of evolution. It’s designed to respond to things that are directly appealing to these corporeal senses. 

In that sense the crisis of climate change has no natural advocates…

Imho there’s also a sort of collective hush-hush perspective on the morality of it because of the whole ‘not in my lifetime’. What’s the height of self-centered, but be that as it may 

Between those two, that’s really what’s controlling the inaction.

[LibertyBell]

6 hours ago, Typhoon Tip said:

I think denial has a lot of inertia in the system actually… I don’t think fear is really as much of a factor. Fear hasn’t really entered the equation yet because people still cannot directly see or hear or feel or taste or touch climate change. That’s the way the human psyche is designed through the crucible of evolution. It’s designed to respond to things that are directly appealing to these corporeal senses. 

In that sense the crisis of climate change has no natural advocates…

Imho there’s also a sort of collective hush-hush perspective on the morality of it because of the whole ‘not in my lifetime’. What’s the height of self-centered, but be that as it may 

Between those two, that’s really what’s controlling the inaction.

The fear though comes from people not wanting change.

We had a big fight here recently in which the pro windfarm people won and construction has begun on an offshore windfarm-- we are decades behind Europe on this and need to catch up

The antiwindfarm people were making ridiculous arguments that windfarms kill whales and dolphins.

But on social media, specifically X/Twitter, we are seeing the rise of a strong antiscience sentiment.  There are even lists being made of past and current scientists whom these people think are masonic cultists.  They say to not believe anything that Newton, Copernicus, Kepler or Einstein said and even that the earth is flat and we never went to the moon.  I always thought this was a fringe movement, but it seems to be growing.  A fascinating sociological study could be made of the degeneracy of current society.

 

 

[LibertyBell]

6 hours ago, Typhoon Tip said:

I think denial has a lot of inertia in the system actually… I don’t think fear is really as much of a factor. Fear hasn’t really entered the equation yet because people still cannot directly see or hear or feel or taste or touch climate change. That’s the way the human psyche is designed through the crucible of evolution. It’s designed to respond to things that are directly appealing to these corporeal senses. 

In that sense the crisis of climate change has no natural advocates…

Imho there’s also a sort of collective hush-hush perspective on the morality of it because of the whole ‘not in my lifetime’. What’s the height of self-centered, but be that as it may 

Between those two, that’s really what’s controlling the inaction.

The corporate media is definitely  a huge part of the problem.

They never give it the coverage it deserves, but instead give negative coverage to protests.

[chubbs]

The spike is largely due to last years Inflation Reduction Act i.e. solar, batteries, EV etc.

[Typhoon Tip]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:13 AM, LibertyBell said:

The fear though comes from people not wanting change.

We had a big fight here recently in which the pro windfarm people won and construction has begun on an offshore windfarm-- we are decades behind Europe on this and need to catch up

The antiwindfarm people were making ridiculous arguments that windfarms kill whales and dolphins.

But on social media, specifically X/Twitter, we are seeing the rise of a strong antiscience sentiment.  There are even lists being made of past and current scientists whom these people think are masonic cultists.  They say to not believe anything that Newton, Copernicus, Kepler or Einstein said and even that the earth is flat and we never went to the moon.  I always thought this was a fringe movement, but it seems to be growing.  A fascinating sociological study could be made of the degeneracy of current society.

 

 

Yeah .. okay, I see what you mean.  

I was getting at more of a 'primal fear' mechanism for/to elicit change. 

You know, big gray abyssal wall of sea water coming over the horizon. The 2nd sunset glow from an asteroid impact while the Earth begins to crack and tremble under foot type stuff.   Four Horseman rapture.   I'm not a religious person in any organized sense of it but ...there's a reason why 'fire and brimstone' works in those passages. That is what is required.  Digression ( haha) but you know what the bible really is? It's a historic framework for failing human virtuosity because they are incapable without being directly stimulated to do so.  That's all it was, really.  Do this or fear God casting you to hell ( so to speak).  Well ?  Stop profligate consumption of fossil fuels for the purpose of powering the industrial convenience engine, or you'll all burn in hell.   Sound familiar.  It's not even a metaphor.  The principle is identical.    

Humans need more than videos of famine, or media coverage of heat waves in Asia. They need knocking at their door - in other words, it's always 'somewhere else' 

In fact, I'm beginning to suspect there's a "warming" (puns are free ) to inaction, because CC doesn't hurt enough, right now. The warnings are getting comfortable to live with in other words. 

It reminds me a little bit of that passage in the historical account of the great Galveston hurricane disaster that took place in the early years of last century. In "Isaac's Storm"  Larson described the sea as rising with successively increasing wave heights. Warm gulf waters were up an over the causeways. But the sun was shining - false state of euphoria supplanted the ominous portents of the tumultuous ocean, because the warm autumn sun, along with the playful surf and light NE trade breezes were too pleasantly immersive. Despite the initial observation of the rising sea, the mood turned to a period of gaiety; the masses wasting precious time that should have been used to leave the barrier islands.  

Are we in such an interlude?

What you describe with 'fear of having to change' is certainly a valid psychology, too. And it absolutely will retard effective action from being implemented with any sense of rapidity..  But, it's a softer variety. It's a part of our interlude.  

You know what ... all of reality is but an analog engine.  We just don't see it because we're too busy separating and categorizing all that we observe into different colors and shapes.  But the universe seems to reproduce the same theme via different systems.  Think of our current climate crisis as a super massive star, destined to super nova ... Did you know, that it takes ~ 10 hours for the termination shock of the initial super nova event to even surface the star from its ignition point in the center?   For 10 hours, the star shines in it's immense glory, just as as it always had across it's millions of years of existence. The surface ... utterly oblivious to the fact that it's already dead. 

Much like our interlude, we may be in our 10 hours.   Circumstantial analog to the star. 

 

[rclab]

1 hour ago, Typhoon Tip said:

Yeah .. okay, I see what you mean.  

I was getting at more of a 'primal fear' mechanism for/to elicit change. 

You know, big gray abyssal wall of sea water coming over the horizon. The 2nd sunset glow from an asteroid impact while the Earth begins to crack and tremble type stuff.   Four Horseman.   I'm not a religious person in any organized sense of it but ...there's a reason why 'fire and brimstone' works in those passages. That is what is required.  Digression ( haha) but you know what the bible really is? It's a historic framework for failing human virtuosity because they are incapable without being directly stimulated to do so.  That's all it was, really.  Do this or fear God casting you to hell ( so to speak).  Well ?  Stop profligate consumption of fossil fuels for the purpose of powering the industrial convenience engine, or you'll all burn in hell.   Sound familiar.  It's not even a metaphor.  The principle is identical.    

Anyway, humans need more than videos of famine, or media coverage of heat waves in Asia - in other words, it's always 'somewhere else' 

In fact, I'm beginning to suspect there's a "warming" (puns are free ) to inaction, because CC doesn't hurt enough, right now. The warnings are getting comfortable to live with in other words. 

It reminds me a little bit of that passage in the historical account of the great Galveston hurricane disaster that took place in the early years of last century. In "Isaac's Storm"  Larson described the sea as rising with successively increasing wave heights. Warm gulf waters were up an over the causeways. But the sun was shining - false state of euphoria supplanted the ominous portents of the tumultuous ocean, because the warm autumn sun and light NE trade breezes were too pleasantly immersive. Despite the initial observation of the rising sea, the mood turned to a period of gaiety; the masses wasting precious time that should have been used to leave the barrier islands.  

Are we in such an interlude?

What you describe with 'fear of having to change' is certainly a valid psychology, too. And it absolutely will retard effective action from being implemented with any sense of rapidity..  But, it's a softer variety. It's a part of our interlude.  

 

My moms “Wait till your father comes home” warning kept me in check. Whether Mother Natures is not effective, unheard or ignored …. something is coming home, be it father or far worse. Stay well, as always ….

[PrinceFrederickWx]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/weather/us-winter-temperatures-climate-change/index.html

[etudiant]

2 hours ago, PrinceFrederickWx said:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/weather/us-winter-temperatures-climate-change/index.html

Perhaps balancing record cold in China and Russia??

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/freezing-temperatures-snow-ice-blanket-china-shutting-highways-2023-12-15/

https://phys.org/news/2023-12-china-cold-snap-persists.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/12/06/siberia-russia-extreme-cold-asia/

[Typhoon Tip]

2 hours ago, etudiant said:

Perhaps balancing record cold in China and Russia??

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/freezing-temperatures-snow-ice-blanket-china-shutting-highways-2023-12-15/

https://phys.org/news/2023-12-china-cold-snap-persists.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/12/06/siberia-russia-extreme-cold-asia/

It's why I am really not completely amazed at this December so far over on this side of the N/Hemisphere.  If the scale and degree of the U.S. and N/A mid latitude temperature anomalies were taking place everywhere?  That would be huge problem like right now - not in 50 or 100 or whatever years.  NOW. 

I don't really trust CNN for science news reprint efforts.  I do trust Phys.org - they do a marvelous job at paraphrasing hard science papers right of the submission acceptances. No doctoring through an interpretation mill - or if one doesn't trust that is the case, they always supply a link/referral to the source so you can read it, thesaurus in tow, for yourself  

The hemisphere is warming, though. This doesn't let the issue/crisis off the hook.  You may have just meant that in rhetoric jest but ... we're not really balancing because it's cold over Eurasia.  What we can and probably should be doing, is determining December's temperature average all over the N/Hemisphere (everywhere).

It is likely above normal.  Therefore, not balancing.  

[bluewave]

The record cold in China this month was balanced out by the record warmth at the beginning. 
 

 

 

 

[chubbs]

As is often the case in winter, Northern Hemisphere temperatures have been volatile in December. The cold spell in Eurasia did lower North Hemi temps mid-month; but, NHemi has also been almost off the chart warm at times this month.  In-any-case December will break records by a large margin, North Hemi and global.

[bluewave]

 

[LibertyBell]

we've given too much power to the states-- look what Alaska has been doing-- unnecessarily exterminating bears and wolves when the real issue is climate change.

https://grist.org/science/alaska-predator-control-caribou-wolves-bear-hunt/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

 

[wishcast_hater]

For those who have an open mind… (because real “science” is supposed to be open to all possibilities)

.

[dseagull]

47 minutes ago, wishcast_hater said:

For those who have an open mind… (because real “science” is supposed to be open to all possibilities)
 

 

 

.

 

 

Get ready for incoming fire... take cover...."oh no, not another opinion!!!"

[wishcast_hater]

38 minutes ago, dseagull said:

Get ready for incoming fire... take cover...."oh no, not another opinion!!!"

LOL - God Forbid someone dissents against the narrative. I live for this. 

[Cobalt]

2 hours ago, wishcast_hater said:

For those who have an open mind… (because real “science” is supposed to be open to all possibilities)
 

 

 

.

 

 

Hello, I watched this video and believe I got the key points, but I was wondering, what were the key takeaways/points/arguments from the video, for you? Just making sure I'm on the same page with what you and dseagull gathered from this video. Thanks!

[SnoSki14]

7 hours ago, wishcast_hater said:

For those who have an open mind… (because real “science” is supposed to be open to all possibilities)
 

 

 

.

 

 

Lol yeah no. 

For climate change deniers the whole world could literally be on fire and they'll look the other way. 

There's no new low they won't sink too. A lot of these rich folks already have bunkers ready.

[dseagull]

5 hours ago, SnoSki14 said:

Lol yeah no. 

For climate change deniers the whole world could literally be on fire and they'll look the other way. 

There's no new low they won't sink too. A lot of these rich folks already have bunkers ready.

The bunkers are for the civil unrest that results from authoritarian measures and the same brainwashed fools that went bonkers (and still are bonkers) from the "pandemic."

It's all about control.  NOBODY is denying that the climate changes or that anthropogenic climate change (to some extent,) is real.  We disagree with the suggested measures, the gaslighting, and the propaganda.  (All for profit and power.)

If people would come together and develop sane solutions to problems instead of falling for "crisis after crisis," they wouldn't be so easily controlled and manipulated.  If you think your government cares about you in 2024, you need to wake up.  

Having said all of that, It is America.  You are free to believe what you would like to believe and say what you would like to say.  It is your God given right.   What you are not free to do is dictate how other free citizens in our republic would like to live our lives without interference from our government or a "global governing body."

The next few years are going to be unimaginably difficult for many Americans.  This has nothing to do with climate change. 

[chubbs]

26 minutes ago, dseagull said:

The bunkers are for the civil unrest that results from authoritarian measures and the same brainwashed fools that went bonkers (and still are bonkers) from the "pandemic."

It's all about control.  NOBODY is denying that the climate changes or that anthropogenic climate change (to some extent,) is real.  We disagree with the suggested measures, the gaslighting, and the propaganda.  (All for profit and power.)

If people would come together and develop sane solutions to problems instead of falling for "crisis after crisis," they wouldn't be so easily controlled and manipulated.  If you think your government cares about you in 2024, you need to wake up.  

Having said all of that, It is America.  You are free to believe what you would like to believe and say what you would like to say.  It is your God given right.   What you are not free to do is dictate how other free citizens in our republic would like to live our lives without interference from our government or a "global governing body."

The next few years are going to be unimaginably difficult for many Americans.  This has nothing to do with climate change. 

I would love to see a conservative solution to climate change. For instance a carbon tax with the monies used to reduce income taxes or the deficit. Has been a no-brainer for decades. By letting the problem fester, conservatives are inviting a big government solution

 

[dseagull]

15 minutes ago, chubbs said:

I would love to see a conservative solution to climate change. For instance a carbon tax with the monies used to reduce income taxes. Has been a no-brainer for decades.

 

I'm not sure how a carbon tax will be used in any meaningful way.  I understand your comment, but I see no way in which a "carbon tax" solves any percieved problems that are defined as a "crisis."

 

You must remember that most people are just trying to get by.   The last thing on their mind is climate change.  They don't want to pay 3x more for wind generated electricity.  They don't have money for an electric vehicle.  They can barely afford rent, even with government subsidies.

 

I admire the people who believe that humans can lower global temperature, because that is admirable conviction.  But, how will you achieve this?  The world doesn't work this way.  By all means, try to make the earth a cleaner and healthier place to live, but raising and lowering global temperature through carbon reduction is setting an unrealistic goal at this point in time.

 

The man-made problems that we are facing right now (literally as I type this,) are much more dire.   Those problems are not related to climate change, which does not meet "crisis" criteria for 99 percent of the world's population.

 

Our biggest threats are immediate.  Let's address those problems and then collectively brainstorm our way out of other issues, after we unify and heal from the societal issues that are man-made and intentional, rather than unintentional (carbon production.)

 

You will not see a world in which anthropogenic climate change can be accurately and honestly assessed and addressed until human beings solve those immediate issues.

 

Again.... we have MUCH MUCH bigger problems to focus on in the near-term.  All signs point to some very dark times ahead for us.  

 

 

[chubbs]

4 minutes ago, dseagull said:

I'm not sure how a carbon tax will be used in any meaningful way.  I understand your comment, but I see no way in which a "carbon tax" solves any percieved problems that are defined as a "crisis."

 

You must remember that most people are just trying to get by.   The last thing on their mind is climate change.  They don't want to pay 3x more for wind generated electricity.  They don't have money for an electric vehicle.  They can barely afford rent, even with government subsidies.

 

I admire the people who believe that humans can lower global temperature, because that is admirable conviction.  But, how will you achieve this?  The world doesn't work this way.  By all means, try to make the earth a cleaner and healthier place to live, but raising and lowering global temperature through carbon reduction is setting an unrealistic goal at this point in time.

 

The man-made problems that we are facing right now (literally as I type this,) are much more dire.   Those problems are not related to climate change, which does not meet "crisis" criteria for 99 percent of the world's population.

 

Our biggest threats are immediate.  Let's address those problems and then collectively brainstorm our way out of other issues, after we unify and heal from the societal issues that are man-made and intentional, rather than unintentional (carbon production.)

 

You will not see a world in which anthropogenic climate change can be accurately and honestly assessed and addressed until human beings solve those immediate issues.

 

Again.... we have MUCH MUCH bigger problems to focus on in the near-term.  All signs point to some very dark times ahead for us.  

 

 

Well you views are much different than mine. Fossil fuels are steadily losing competitive advantage. Wind, solar, EV are all much cheaper than they were a decade ago and growing rapidly on a global basis, often without subsidies. I think we will be kicking ourselves in a decade for not ditching fossil-fuels earlier.

[dseagull]

Additionally...

 

Trust in the governing bodies and the media is at an all-time low, especially on the heels of the "pandemic."  (You cannot blame people for this.) Because of this, large scale compliance, in terms of addressing AGW, is going to be nearly impossible.  

 

As I suggested in another thread with @LibertyBell, it is unlikely that climate change will be addressed until a tragic event of some form occurs.   Since climate change occurs relatively slowly, history predicts that it will not be adressed collectively and immediately in any meaningful way.  

[dseagull]

9 minutes ago, chubbs said:

Well you views are much different than mine. Fossil fuels are steadily losing competitive advantage. Wind, solar, EV are all much cheaper than they were a decade ago and growing rapidly on a global basis, often without subsidies. I think we will be kicking ourselves in a decade for not ditching fossil-fuels earlier.

You could very much be correct. I will never chastise another American for their viewpoint, unless it harms or damages my family or way of life in a way prevents me from surviving.  

 

Viewpoints do not result in this... Mandates from Authoritarians do.

 

When I was younger, I may have held similar beliefs as yourself.  I believe that as I have aged and educated myself through reading history and traveling, I have become a realist.  I have learned to accept the things which I cannot control.  This doesn't mean I have no desire to see positive change, rather my perspectives have changed greatly.  Limitations exist.  Utopia does not.  It is a cruel and wild world we live in.  

 

"I have seen the enemy, and it is us."

[wishcast_hater]

12 hours ago, Cobalt said:

Hello, I watched this video and believe I got the key points, but I was wondering, what were the key takeaways/points/arguments from the video, for you? Just making sure I'm on the same page with what you and dseagull gathered from this video. Thanks!

I would rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that cannot be questioned.

As I watched this video I was taking notes, in fact I watched it twice. My takeaway is that TRUTH can stand on its own unlike what has been going on in the scientific community and the media. There is a political agenda being pushed by the tyranny of the few against the majority. The people in the UNIPCC are not scientists but fund scientists to ensure a specific outcome, and that is something I have believed for many years.  A lot of people on here believe science is performed in a vacuum chamber free of bias and outside influence. I always am told science doesn’t lie and that facts are facts and YES science doesn’t lie BUT PEOPLE DO and that is the problem. Funding influences scientists because it comes with strings attached versus a donation. Many scientists are afraid to speak up or risk losing funding, there are very few independents out there. Scientists are being censored by peers and department heads pressuring everyone to tow the line. Because of this situation, the IPICC has bad data and suppresses data that does not line up with the narrative.

I have been accused of being ignorant and uneducated by people in this forum because I disagree with their opinions. Apparently only those who have a degree in field of climatology, vulcanology or meteorology can weigh in on such matters.  That is an appeal to authority which is a fallacy. Any reasonable person can understand that there is no way that the 0.02% of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere is the driving engine behind “climate change”.  Co2 is not this death gas its being made out to be, its good for crops and fish and makes life on earth possible but it’s not making hurricanes stronger or more frequent and not making thunderstorms more severe.

Willie Soon brings up valid points showing there has been wild temperature swings in our recent past and yet man is still around. From the Little Ice Age where the Thames River was frozen and people ice skating in Holland to warmer periods in our past where Greenland was actually green to farmers being able to grow wine in England. He attributes all of this to sunspot activity or solar activity which makes far more sense because it is the main driver of weather. I agree with his statement that no two summers or winters are identical as well as the claim that our current warming preceded the proliferation of the automobile which in my opinion is a death blow who those claim this warming is “man made”.

The only way we have influenced weather is in regard to the urban heat island effect. Concrete and asphalt retain heat and definitely affect climate. I was taken aback but not surprised that climate activists average the data between urban and rural stations which skew temperatures higher. I always knew that “renewable” energy does not come anywhere close to the return on investment compared to traditional energy sources but I couldn’t believe the amount of money (2 trillion on solar and wind) only accounts for 3% of our power. Wind farms and solar farms are an environmental disaster as disposal of these toxic materials have yet to be realized, plus all the trees and wildlife killed seems to be OK because its “green energy” just seems a bit hypocritical to me.

I have always heard that oil isn’t really a fossil fuel at all. It makes logical sense since oil is miles below the earth’s surface unlike the trees, peat and dead animals that live on the surface. So my takeaway is this – scientific consensus is a lie, people lie, people have an agenda, shutting down our economy is beyond foolish and reckless to solve something that isn’t a problem at all. All this talk about climate change is really just another way to control mankind, just like Covid19. The elite control the government and influence those who run it. Many folks cannot or will not understand how the government, media and corporations all are working together to shape how we think and what we say.  It’s a “conspiracy”, “it’s too big to keep a secret”  but for those who are unplugged from the Matrix we can see it clearly but I will concede that “ignorance is bliss” and sometimes I wish I could be a sheep like everyone else. Oh, and I’m a NYC city worker who survived the propaganda machine and remain “unvaccinated” and yet I still live and so do all my family and friends. God Bless and Be Well.

[bdgwx]

Michael Mann was just awarded $1,000,000 in his defamation case against Mark Steyn and Rand Simberg for equating his work in MBH98 and MBH99 to the molestation of a child.

https://apnews.com/article/climate-change-defamation-michael-mann-penn-state-61289ee2d8d2143768d28995c83899ef

[ChescoWx]

CNBC reports that “ The world surpasses key warming threshold [+1.5°C] across an entire year for the first time!!! Ruh roh...let's all tremble in our boots.... but of course with that threshold crossed it not surprisingly delivered absolutely nothing catastrophic or life threatening to our planet.  Now we used to hear that +1.5°C above the 1850-1900 pre-industrial average temps would be the scary “tipping point.” Me thinks the climate alarmists will need to push that baby back to maybe +2.0°C or surely 2.1 °C.  That cataclysmic "tipping point" will most surely happen at that point.....right????

[Cobalt]

6 hours ago, wishcast_hater said:

He attributes all of this to sunspot activity or solar activity which makes far more sense because it is the main driver of weather.

Oh, that is definitely interesting. Has sunspot activity gone up along with the recent warming, or is it just a temporary blip unrelated?

[LibertyBell]

13 minutes ago, Cobalt said:

Oh, that is definitely interesting. Has sunspot activity gone up along with the recent warming, or is it just a temporary blip unrelated?

Not sure how much the impact is, but we're at solar maximum right now and will be right through October. That's why we're so excited about the upcoming total solar eclipse in April with large pink prominences visible off the solar limb.