May 2019 Discussion

[Ginx snewx]

6 hours ago, powderfreak said:

It's overcrowding on the 4 days of good weather they get.  I really think the narrative of people who shouldn't be there is over-blown...unless we take the stance no one should be there.

I read like 6 of the 11 that died have scaled the highest peak on all 7 continents (albeit didn't make it down from the 7th).

That's normally what goes on up there...it's often the last of the big 7.  That is a huge climbing goal that thousands have accomplished.  I'm no expert but it's hard to say if you've gone up the other 6 highest peaks in the world that you have no business being up there.  I mean if you can survive Denali, Elbrus, many of them hit Mount Blanc, Kilimanjaro, etc you aren't some person who just decides on a whim to go do that.  

Its purely a lack of planning though due to the poor weather they've had...only 3-4 days this year to Summit and that's what happened.  All of those people would've been fine if they didn't have the traffic up there.  

But these types of reactions always happen in the more extreme sports world...like a rash of skydiving deaths or avalanche deaths or something.  I always have an appreciation for folks that have such a passion for something that brings them great joy.  So many people go through life without finding that activity that brings them true joy.  Hiking mountains and experiencing different cultures seems like it would be a great way to challenge yourself.

Better to die doing something you loved than dying on the Mass Pike because some drunk guy coming home from happy hour or a Xanax'd suburban mom was texting her kids and couldn't stay in her lane.  

Yeah sure, this is like a skier who skied one black in his life suddenly deciding to ski Tucks and taking out 7 skiers on his fall. Its a safety fail on all levels. Comparing accidental deaths to people purposely putting their and other peoples life on the line is kind of foolish 

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

4 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

AWT 

Set some time aside today to uninstall. 

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

6 hours ago, powderfreak said:

It's overcrowding on the 4 days of good weather they get.  I really think the narrative of people who shouldn't be there is over-blown...unless we take the stance no one should be there.

I read like 6 of the 11 that died have scaled the highest peak on all 7 continents (albeit didn't make it down from the 7th).

That's normally what goes on up there...it's often the last of the big 7.  That is a huge climbing goal that thousands have accomplished.  I'm no expert but it's hard to say if you've gone up the other 6 highest peaks in the world that you have no business being up there.  I mean if you can survive Denali, Elbrus, many of them hit Mount Blanc, Kilimanjaro, etc you aren't some person who just decides on a whim to go do that.  

Its purely a lack of planning though due to the poor weather they've had...only 3-4 days this year to Summit and that's what happened.  All of those people would've been fine if they didn't have the traffic up there.  

But these types of reactions always happen in the more extreme sports world...like a rash of skydiving deaths or avalanche deaths or something.  I always have an appreciation for folks that have such a passion for something that brings them great joy.  So many people go through life without finding that activity that brings them true joy.  Hiking mountains and experiencing different cultures seems like it would be a great way to challenge yourself.

Better to die doing something you loved than dying on the Mass Pike because some drunk guy coming home from happy hour or a Xanax'd suburban mom was texting her kids and couldn't stay in her lane.  

The last paragraph just completely derailed your point....which I don’t agree with anyway but can respect it.

I’m not one to tell others how they should live or die, that’s the beauty of free will. But I can’t imagine dying while waiting to tickle the summit is on anyone’s bucket list...no matter how much they love climbing. It’s tragic and like most tragedies, we will react to it and make the necessary changes to prevent (or minimize) it from happening again.

[Ginx snewx]

29 minutes ago, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

Set some time aside today to uninstall. 

Might have to close the pool, where did my summer go?

[powderfreak]

34 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Yeah sure, this is like a skier who skied one black in his life suddenly deciding to ski Tucks and taking out 7 skiers on his fall. Its a safety fail on all levels. Comparing accidental deaths to people purposely putting their and other peoples life on the line is kind of foolish 

But it's not like that Ginxy.  It takes incredible skill and athleticism to get up any of the world's highest peak.  If you can get up Denali, the Matterhorn, Grand Teton, etc navigate the glaciers and extensive no fall zones, thats not going from a single black to Tucks.  

Maybe if they climbed Mansfield and then MWN once, then went to Everest, sure.  But you guys are drastically minimizing these other peaks and experiences.  They know what they are doing, it's just too crowded.   

The guy driving drunk on the Mass Pike isn't an accidental death, he is purposefully putting his and others lives at risk.  There's no accident about that.  

[Ginx snewx]

2 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

But it's not like that Ginxy.  It takes incredible skill and athleticism to get up any of the world's highest peak.  If you can get up Denali, the Matterhorn, Grand Teton, etc navigate the glaciers and extensive no fall zones, thats not going from a single black to Tucks.  

Maybe if they climbed Mansfield and then MWN once, then went to Everest, sure.  But you guys are drastically minimizing these other peaks and experiences.  They know what they are doing, it's just too crowded.   

The guy driving drunk on the Mass Pike isn't an accidental death, he is purposefully putting his and others lives at risk.  There's no accident about that.

You do realize many sherpas are reporting many of those in that line didn't even know how to put on crampons or their harnesses. I fail to see the connection between a mom texting and driving and those who purposefully cheat death.

[powderfreak]

20 minutes ago, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

The last paragraph just completely derailed your point....which I don’t agree with anyway but can respect it.

I’m not one to tell others how they should live or die, that’s the beauty of free will. But I can’t imagine dying while waiting to tickle the summit is on anyone’s bucket list...no matter how much they love climbing. It’s tragic and like most tragedies, we will react to it and make the necessary changes to prevent (or minimize) it from happening again.

It's true, no one dreams of dying in any manner... I guess everyone has their bucket lists and bucket lists by nature are selfish.  It's things you as a human want to experience before death, the root of selfishness ha.  People pay guides to take them anywhere they can think of.  

On a morbid note, one of my father's friends who I grew up skiing with, had a bucket list item to scuba dive the Great Barrier Reef.  His wife and him went with a guide service and she came up to the surface too fast and died right there on the boat.

[powderfreak]

14 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

You do realize many sherpas are reporting many of those in that line didn't even know how to put on crampons or their harnesses. I fail to see the connection between a mom texting and driving and those who purposefully cheat death.

That Mom driving on Xanax or texting is purposefully cheating death IMO, but we as society have seemed to accept that.  We'll have to agree to disagree.  Back to weather.

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

5 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

That Mom driving on Xanax or texting is purposefully cheating death IMO, but we as society have seemed to accept that.  We'll have to agree to disagree.  Back to weather.

What about a weenie taking a picture while driving during a snowstorm then crashes and dies...hey, at least he died with his weenie out witnessing something he loves? 

There’s a shitload of shades of grey, more than 50. Can’t pinpoint then all....it’s a dangerous world out there just have to be safe and pray a ton. 

[RUNNAWAYICEBERG]

34 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Might have to close the pool, where did my summer go?

Shut down the resorts, beaches and pools.

[powderfreak]

15 minutes ago, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

What about a weenie taking a picture while driving during a snowstorm then crashes and dies...hey, at least he died with his weenie out witnessing something he loves? 

There’s a shitload of shades of grey, more than 50. Can’t pinpoint then all....it’s a dangerous world out there just have to be safe and pray a ton. 

Yup bingo.  Great example too.  

Throw in hurricane and tornado chasing...the public gave out Darwin awards to those storm chasers that got cut down a couple years ago in the Midwest.

That's why it's hard to pass judgement on the decisions of others.  Passions can be dangerous.

[weatherwiz]

chasing storms, climbing mountains, and texting while driving are all completely different. 

Unless you're driving like a moron, blowing stoplights and stop signs presumably you're only putting your own life at risk. climbing mountains...again it's really your own life. Texting and driving you're putting everyone around you in danger. If someone wants to put their own life at risk...fine. But doing something that puts others at risk is horrific. 

[Ginx snewx]

19 minutes ago, weatherwiz said:

chasing storms, climbing mountains, and texting while driving are all completely different. 

Unless you're driving like a moron, blowing stoplights and stop signs presumably you're only putting your own life at risk. climbing mountains...again it's really your own life. Texting and driving you're putting everyone around you in danger. If someone wants to put their own life at risk...fine. But doing something that puts others at risk is horrific. 

If they only put their life at risk... cept when they dont die and someone has to risk their life to save them. Adrenaline junkies are crazy pushing limits. The whole disaster on Everest can be tied back to inexperienced climbers according to sherpas. More power to the adrenaline junkies but when they dont die people have to risk their lives to save those whose thrill effects others when it goes wrong. Lets be honest, we all take risks everyday but when you take extreme risks you raise the possibility of death or serious injury. I respect the rights of others to kill themselves doing what they love but question decisions which ultimately put others who didnt love that decision at risk.

[weatherwiz]

Just now, Ginx snewx said:

If they only put there life at risk... cept when they dont die and someone has to risk their life to save them. Adrenaline junkies are crazy pushing limits. The whole disaster on Everest can be tied back to inexperienced climbers according to sherpas. More power to the adrenaline junkies but when they dont die people have to risk their lives to save those whose thrill effects others when it goes wrong. Lets be honest, we all take risks everyday but when you take extreme risks you raise the possibility of death or serious injury. I respect the rights of others to kill themselves doing what they love but question decisions which ultimately put others who didnt love that decision at risk.

This is a great point too...especially with those who fail to evacuate during hurricane orders and flooding. People refuse to leave and then they cry for help b/c their about to drown so people have to risk their lives to save them b/c they refused to leave. 

[Ginx snewx]

Just now, weatherwiz said:

This is a great point too...especially with those who fail to evacuate during hurricane orders and flooding. People refuse to leave and then they cry for help b/c their about to drown so people have to risk their lives to save them b/c they refused to leave. 

I was on the other side of people's decision affecting others, when I was in the fire service and then emergency management. Shit happens but when dumb self serving decisions kill others its not cool. 

[weatherwiz]

1 minute ago, Ginx snewx said:

I was on the other side of people's decision affecting others, when I was in the fire service and then emergency management. Shit happens but when dumb self serving decisions kill others its not cool. 

+100 

[tamarack]

49 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yup bingo.  Great example too.  

Throw in hurricane and tornado chasing...the public gave out Darwin awards to those storm chasers that got cut down a couple years ago in the Midwest.

That's why it's hard to pass judgement on the decisions of others.  Passions can be dangerous.

And IIRC those victims were known as some of the most conservative and safety conscious of any of the chaser crowd, but that tornado did some things totally unexpected, maybe things not observed before.  Meanwhile there are reports of babies being carried hundreds of yards by tornados and being set down essentially unharmed.  Stuff happens.

If they only put their life at risk... cept when they dont die and someone has to risk their life to save them. Adrenaline junkies are crazy pushing limits. The whole disaster on Everest can be tied back to inexperienced climbers according to Sherpas.

I think the Sherpas, though honest and correct in general, were also being loyal to their country, which chose to issue nearly 400 of those $11,000 permits.  That plus the weather-caused short summiting window was a clear example of Murphy's Law.   And given that there were some poorly-trained climbers, as reported by the local guides, it's ironic that most of the fatalities seem to have been very experienced climbers rather than the wannabees.

[weatherwiz]

WOAH...the HRRR now goes out to 36 hours? 

[WinterWolf]

4 hours ago, Angus said:

Part of problem is poor guide services. In past, from I've read in the usual assortment of recently popular mountaineering books, the guide services would compete, yet coordinate ascents so as to mitigate back ups on summit. There are now a # of new outfitters which appear to be low quality. They are local Nepalese outfits that take anyone. Also, there has been allegations that thr bottled oxygen recharging has been faulty. Reading a book at moment about Mallory's attempt post WWI. Kind of sad when you consider that the mountain, considered sacred by the locals, is being trashed all in the name of hard foreign currency.

Excellent post.

[WinterWolf]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

Yup bingo.  Great example too.  

Throw in hurricane and tornado chasing...the public gave out Darwin awards to those storm chasers that got cut down a couple years ago in the Midwest.

That's why it's hard to pass judgement on the decisions of others.  Passions can be dangerous.

Freak, this discussion goes back to my comment a few days back about quite a few folks being inexperienced, and the local government giving out to many permits imo.  You disagreed with that statement, and said you thought that the vast majority are very qualified and experienced.   

Now that info is starting to trickle out, it looks to be exactly the problem that I originally thought. And that’s what’s putting the rest of the folks, that are experienced and qualified to be there, at risk this year.  And now you add in the guiding services being sub par too...it’s no surprise it’s a death trap this year.  

That was my point from the start, not whether it’s your passion or not; many should not be there(guides and guiding services as well), and add in the overcrowding this year, and well you have a death trap!  I think that’s where you and I are disagreeing. 

I see some of your points too..but they need to start screening better and limiting the number of permits going forward.  As I said a few days back...it’s starting to be a joke/irresponsible up there, and that’s why folks are dying now unnecessarily. That place is no place for people who don’t know how to even put on, or use the basic  mountaineering equipment!  

[Sn0waddict]

54 minutes ago, weatherwiz said:

WOAH...the HRRR now goes out to 36 hours? 

I believe it does only for 0z,6z,12z,18z

[weatherwiz]

2 minutes ago, Sn0waddict said:

I believe it does only for 0z,6z,12z,18z

ahhh that makes sense as to why it did for the 12z run and not for 13z. When did this start? I just noticed it this morning.

[Sn0waddict]

4 minutes ago, weatherwiz said:

ahhh that makes sense as to why it did for the 12z run and not for 13z. When did this start? I just noticed it this morning.

Not sure exactly when but I first started using it during the 2nd half of winter

[weatherwiz]

2 minutes ago, Sn0waddict said:

Not sure exactly when but I first started using it during the 2nd half of winter

Wow...maybe COD just started implemented it on their site? I find it hard to believe I wouldn't have noticed until now lol 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, Ginx snewx said:

I was on the other side of people's decision affecting others, when I was in the fire service and then emergency management. Shit happens but when dumb self serving decisions kill others its not cool. 

Probably see a lot of dumb assdriving and texting or distracted driving accidents in the fire department.  That's how my uncle died on 395 in CT...got rear ended by a tractor trailer who was using his cell phone at the time.  Died on the scene.

[powderfreak]

20 minutes ago, WinterWolf said:

Freak, this discussion goes back to my comment a few days back about quite a few folks being inexperienced, and the local government giving out to many permits imo.  You disagreed with that statement, and said you thought that the vast majority are very qualified and experienced.   

Now that info is starting to trickle out, it looks to be exactly the problem that I originally thought. And that’s what’s putting the rest of the folks, that are experienced and qualified to be there, at risk this year.  And now you add in the guiding services being sub par too...it’s no surprise it’s a death trap this year.  

That was my point from the start, not whether it’s your passion or not; many should not be there(guides and guiding services as well), and add in the overcrowding this year, and well you have a death trap!  I think that’s where you and I are disagreeing. 

I see some of your points too..but they need to start screening better and limiting the number of permits going forward.  As I said a few days back...it’s starting to be a joke/irresponsible up there, and that’s why folks are dying now unnecessarily. That place is no place for people who don’t know how to even put on, or use the basic  mountaineering equipment!  

Time to move it to banter, see ya there lol.

[dendrite]

3 minutes ago, weatherwiz said:

Wow...maybe COD just started implemented it on their site? I find it hard to believe I wouldn't have noticed until now lol 

The HRRR main page has had it for awhile. You can get some other experimental stuff too like the subhourly maps.

https://rapidrefresh.noaa.gov/hrrr/HRRRsubh/Welcome.cgi?dsKey=hrrr_subh_jet

[weatherwiz]

10 minutes ago, dendrite said:

The HRRR main page has had it for awhile. You can get some other experimental stuff too like the subhourly maps.

https://rapidrefresh.noaa.gov/hrrr/HRRRsubh/Welcome.cgi?dsKey=hrrr_subh_jet

I had forgotten all about this page. Thanks! 

[metagraphica]

Well this is no way to run a 90 degree humid day.  61 at KGON and 57 KIJD at 1pm.  The current 70 degree NWS forecast might even fail at this rate.

[Great Snow 1717]

22 minutes ago, metagraphica said:

Well this is no way to run a 90 degree humid day.  61 at KGON and 57 KIJD at 1pm.  The current 70 degree NWS forecast might even fail at this rate.

53 at LWM.  Someone's call from  last week for 90+ and humid based on "pattern recognition" has been an epic fail.