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December Discussion


NorEastermass128

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1 hour ago, CoastalWx said:

Both the GEFS and EPS have low heights in areas where we don't want. I think some of you are taking advantage of legalized weed. Until then, we have a couple of threats through first week of December. That aspect hasn't changed. And to clarify because I see some hyperbole around, it's not a furnace that people are calling for...it looks like a relaxation where it could turn milder.

When is the relaxation posed to occur??

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Not sold...

The three month trend is rife with faux leads of big warm ups in the Week 2's + and they're having trouble verifying.  The big one to end Novie and wring in Dec is now no longer than a mere warm sector push that's all of a 36 hours.  

I need to see that present sort of era scaled verification tendency show a different error before I bite on this next warm up... Like I was saying to Will or whomever that was, it almost strikes me as a pattern "lost signal" more than a real one for pattern change (or even relaxation)..  If it comes to pass that these latter attributes reign correct, than Ok - my feelings won't be hurt :) but I need more than what I'm seeing

Granted, the teleconnector hard numbers as they stood, as of yesterday morning, were flagging a PNA flatline, along with the break-down of -NAO .. But, as far as the American cluster, they also contained a 7 day stint of -EPO... beginning  3 to 5 days and ending near Dec 5 or 7th ...  Moreover, the EPO handling tends to falsely rise in the extended... I've noticed this more often than not, in past recent winters (going back some 5 year's worth) ...where a -EPO always slopes toward neutral or even positive, but subsequent nightly processing lowers each daily values gradually.  Supposition at this/that point in discussion, but I'm willing to take a flyer on the length of this EPO. 

FWIW, the Euro swaths a ginormous mass of loaded, sub -20C air in the 850 mb products growing in mass from D7 thru 10 of the operational, which is a pleasing fit for a -EPO interval.   I'm a fan of cross-guidance hand-shakes... such as the GEF's sagging the EPO while the operational Euro cold loads Canada.  Pattern may (or may not) bring that mass down in modified forms and intervals, but that cannot be ascertained at this range... particularly when the Pacific is a mess and lacks a coherently canvased wave spacing.    But should Alberta-western Quebec - Nunavut size mass of < -20 C 850 air pan out... you can't feel comfortable going balmy at this proximity to that hemispheric circumstance ...  

We've been beaten over the head in recent years why the EPO is probably the more important November to early April factor in mid latitude, temperature anomaly distributions... 

Someone may read this and get excited for winter?  don't!  I'm not here claiming cryo Hades on Earth ... I'm just saying that I'm not impressed with the recent verification so far on extended warm ups, and given that, and some of these modeled fields.. I have decent enough reasons to doubt December is really anything at this point. 

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15 hours ago, Typhoon Tip said:

Oh ..this is a support group, period.

Really, may as well meet on Tuesday nights from 7 to 9 pm, where people raise their hands and discuss their addiction.  Truth be told, there are strict forums out there where the contribution is purely analytic/theoretical, and is borderline referee-able right out of the type. The climate in those is about as chilly as the collective here wishes the winter is... Content changes relatively infrequently, with gaps in participation extending weeks at a time. And much of it is unreadably dry

We are not that, here. 

 

Wow I am impressed

Welcome to the Camp, 
I guess you all know why we're here
My name is Tippy
And I became aware this year

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13 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Wow I am impressed

Welcome to the Camp, 
I guess you all know why we're here
My name is Tippy
And I became aware this year

I've always known this...    You just don't like it when I've taken the temerity to point it out...  by choosing to get defensive about it - 

 

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1 hour ago, Typhoon Tip said:

Not sold...

The three month trend is rife with faux leads of big warm ups in the Week 2's + and they're having trouble verifying.  The big one to end Novie and wring in Dec is now no longer than a mere warm sector push that's all of a 36 hours.  

I need to see that present sort of era scaled verification tendency show a different error before I bite on this next warm up... Like I was saying to Will or whomever that was, it almost strikes me as a pattern "lost signal" more than a real one for pattern change (or even relaxation)..  If it comes to pass that these latter attributes reign correct, than Ok - my feelings won't be hurt :) but I need more than what I'm seeing

Granted, the teleconnector hard numbers as they stood, as of yesterday morning, were flagging a PNA flatline, along with the break-down of -NAO .. But, as far as the American cluster, they also contained a 7 day stint of -EPO... beginning  3 to 5 days and ending near Dec 5 or 7th ...  Moreover, the EPO handling tends to falsely rise in the extended... I've noticed this more often than not, in past recent winters (going back some 5 year's worth) ...where a -EPO always slopes toward neutral or even positive, but subsequent nightly processing lowers each daily values gradually.  Supposition at this/that point in discussion, but I'm willing to take a flyer on the length of this EPO. 

FWIW, the Euro swaths a ginormous mass of loaded, sub -20C air in the 850 mb products growing in mass from D7 thru 10 of the operational, which is a pleasing fit for a -EPO interval.   I'm a fan of cross-guidance hand-shakes... such as the GEF's sagging the EPO while the operational Euro cold loads Canada.  Pattern may (or may not) bring that mass down in modified forms and intervals, but that cannot be ascertained at this range... particularly when the Pacific is a mess and lacks a coherently canvased wave spacing.    But should Alberta-western Quebec - Nunavut size mass of < -20 C 850 air pan out... you can't feel comfortable going balmy at this proximity to that hemispheric circumstance ...  

We've been beaten over the head in recent years why the EPO is probably the more important November to early April factor in mid latitude, temperature anomaly distributions... 

Someone may read this and get excited for winter?  don't!  I'm not here claiming cryo Hades on Earth ... I'm just saying that I'm not impressed with the recent verification so far on extended warm ups, and given that, and some of these modeled fields.. I have decent enough reasons to doubt December is really anything at this point. 

It definitely wouldn't surprise me if the mild period underperforms mid-month. I'm not an expert by any means on the week 3/4 type stuff, but it seems like there is a relatively short window for us to torch...if we somehow "prolong" the cold because we get a weak EPO block that holds off the AK vortex from establishing itself by 3-4 days....then by the time it is able to move in, the hemispheric pattern is starting to become hostile to an AK vortex and perhaps we only see a brief mild period (say, less than 7 days and relatively modest positive departures) before the next ridge builds out there...that is a scenario I could see happening.

There will obviously be idiosyncrasies within the pattern we can;t predict....if we get a PV planting close by in Quebec, that could also keep New England in the cold longer than, say, the northern plains. Or on the flip side, we get an unfortunate phasing event to our west and we get a cutter right before the mild period...that could usher in the mild period sooner than otherwise. Who knows. But all else equal, it does have the feeling that since this cold season has started in mid October, we overperform the cold and underperform the warmth. Sometimes we just have seasons that act that way....and of course, we've seen plenty of seasons that do the opposite...the cold underperforms at least excuse imaginable while a goose fart from the Ozarks gives us 3 days of 50F in January.

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52 minutes ago, Typhoon Tip said:

I've always known this...    You just don't like it when I've taken the temerity to point it out...  by choosing to get defensive about it - 

 

Woah dude, I love it. I remember when you basically wanted this place to be sci.geo.meteorology.edu. Glad to see you have accepted us.

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3 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

Both the GEFS and EPS have low heights in areas where we don't want. I think some of you are taking advantage of legalized weed. Until then, we have a couple of threats through first week of December. That aspect hasn't changed. And to clarify because I see some hyperbole around, it's not a furnace that people are calling for...it looks like a relaxation where it could turn milder.

Still in the 11-15 where it’s been for a week.  I think the eps finally moved it up to d12.   Getting closer by 1 day per week.  At this rate it’s here by March.   J/k...I realize we’re going to relax but how much and how long?  It doesn’t seem like one of those vortices that sit there for a year allowing us snow when it gets up to take a dump before coming back to the chair.

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2 hours ago, Typhoon Tip said:

 "...  Moreover, the EPO handling tends to falsely rise in the extended... I've noticed this more often than not, in past recent winters (going back some 5 year's worth) ...where a -EPO always slopes toward neutral or even positive, but subsequent nightly processing lowers each daily values gradually.  Supposition at this/that point in discussion, but I'm willing to take a flyer on the length of this EPO. "

 

Sorry if the self-quotation comes off in bad taste but, the new EPO numbers were just updated on CDC's site from overnight, and they did exactly what this statement above surmised/implied they might...  The previous night's computation had this signal neutralizing closer to Dec 7 ...now we see it arrive extended to 10...AND, depthier.    To re-iterate the 00z Euro's operational notion of pooling continental syrup in Canada is still out there, as a plausible cross-guidance lurking signal... Curious what the 12z looks like - EPS for that matter.  At this point,  at least in so far as the GEFs are concerned, I have a problems with any warm assumption with this look below.

image.png.454618e2ffb923494b4215de4bdf3cc3.png

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1 minute ago, Snow88 said:

Depends on alot of factors

"Late" developer inherently develops relatively far to the east, so unless the trough goes quickly negative, its not going to swing due north or nnw bodily into MA.

This last system was not a late bloomer....it was a re developer, which can be more problematic.

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