Michael Banter Thread

[Stebo]

9 minutes ago, Windspeed said:

For the sake of accuracy, Google was a few ticks off, not that you'll notice from eyeballing the map. This is dead on for 29.408 N 84.858 W, the station in question. And this is exactly where you'd expect such readings:

Of course that buoy was no where near the eyewall. Far too much discussion wasted with someone who doesn't know a damn thing.

[LongBeachSurfFreak]

28 minutes ago, burrel2 said:

You could say the same thing about PCB if the storms western eyewall had hit there, or 80% of the other major cities on the coastline.

While I agree somewhat, I was referring to point st. Joe not port. Point is that tiny little barrier island. Not all barrier islands are equal and that one looks especially bad. It’s basically just a sand bar. There was one area of Rhode Island that was similar and completely destroyed during the hurricane of 38. It was not rebuilt even back then.

[SENC]

ok Lets go  to Port Saint Joe.. Weather Station,, Gulf County Emergency Operations Center WeatherSTEM Station

11.4 miles from Landfall.. (Mexico beach) 

I DO NOT see Cat 4 or 5 Winds do you?

 

[snowman21]

2 hours ago, SENC said:

Lets not beat a dead horse  on this,,, Though, Multiple stations going "dead" all at the  same time?

With FED .GOV are there not "back-ups",  Generators,  things called "Redundancy"? 

Are We to believe Cell towers were still in operation, YET Anemometers were "destroyed", or not reporting?

Reference to Storm Chasers, broadcasting.., Still broadcasting Live video,,   yet ,, Anemometers & related equipment destroyed? 

Every  Anemometer in the Landfall  area(s)?

So folks bashed Me on a "buoy" that I said looked like a "lighthouse"..

WELL? here's a picture of it..

THE  Anemometer & instrument(s) are "offshore" of the Airforce base.. It HAS Batts & generators with-in it..

It's maintained by the Air Force..

So lets TAKE AGAIN Hard Data.. (I had to look hard for this)..

Folks "claimed" It FAILED.. No it didn't.. I got the "data" right HERE...

No there really is no redundancy. The weather stations run on AC power. Once that goes, so goes the station in most cases. Many cell towers have generators to keep them going for up to a day while weather stations do not. Power probably went out nearly simultaneously across a large swath of the area taking with it the weather stations.

[Windspeed]

ok Lets go  to Port Saint Joe.. Weather Station,, Gulf County Emergency Operations Center WeatherSTEM Station 11.4 miles from Landfall.. (Mexico beach)  I DO NOT see Cat 4 or 5 Winds do you?  

Once again, if you would just do some actual analysis of the data you are viewing, you would have quickly realized that station lost power in the preceding hour before landfall.

 

Notice the last report, 12:53 PM. Port Saint Joe, FL is located in the Eastern timezone. Landfall time was approx 17:33z or 12:33 PM CDT. Simply put, that last reading was at 11:53 AM CDT.

 

Again, the last reading ended with power failure or a malfunction due to conditions, but before closest proximity of eyewall and the highest winds experienced at that location.

 

Edit: Perhaps semantics, but for posterity, PSJ WStem failure was approx 40 minutes prior to 17:33z/12:33 PM CDT landfall.

[etudiant]

32 minutes ago, snowman21 said:

No there really is no redundancy. The weather stations run on AC power. Once that goes, so goes the station in most cases. Many cell towers have generators to keep them going for up to a day while weather stations do not. Power probably went out nearly simultaneously across a large swath of the area taking with it the weather stations.

I'm surprised these stations don't have a cheap UPS, if only to filter the power input.

That would not incur much extra cost or servicing, but would allow the station to continue to operate for perhaps an hour after the power failed. For data collection, that should cover the critical interval.

[snowman21]

5 minutes ago, etudiant said:

I'm surprised these stations don't have a cheap UPS, if only to filter the power input.

That would not incur much extra cost or servicing, but would allow the station to continue to operate for perhaps an hour after the power failed. For data collection, that should cover the critical interval.

They do have something I believe, but not something that will keep it running for a significant amount of time. The systems have fairly substantial power requirements as they have to power the instruments in the field plus a big cabinet full of processing equipment. Keep in mind the systems, at least ASOS which is deployed at the largest 1000 or so airports, were designed in the late '80s so that's the technology we're working with though parts, mainly the sensors, have been upgraded over time at select sites.

[KPITSnow]

1 hour ago, SENC said:

ok Lets go  to Port Saint Joe.. Weather Station,, Gulf County Emergency Operations Center WeatherSTEM Station

11.4 miles from Landfall.. (Mexico beach) 

I DO NOT see Cat 4 or 5 Winds do you?

 

Seriously, can you please just give it a rest. You have been proven wrong again and again, and in some cases proven to be flat out lying. 

[mreaves]

5 hours ago, the ghost of leroy said:

rebuilt for the rich.  we never learn.  

This. Every time I go down to PCB, generally every other year for the last 20, there are newer and bigger high rises set on the dunes. It looks like they survived for the most part but if this storm had come ashore 20 miles West I don’t know what would have happened to them. 

[mattb65]

On 10/9/2018 at 12:18 PM, the ghost of leroy said:

I’m still feeling okay about my call for a relative sleeper at landfall. 

Guess u were right all along. Can't wait for the next buoy pressure/wind tracing that SENC posts 80 miles outside the eyewall.

[mreaves]

12 minutes ago, KPITSnow said:

Seriously, can you please just give it a rest. You have been proven wrong again and again, and in some cases proven to be flat out lying. 

He won’t be SILENCED!

[etudiant]

15 minutes ago, snowman21 said:

They do have something I believe, but not something that will keep it running for a significant amount of time. The systems have fairly substantial power requirements as they have to power the instruments in the field plus a big cabinet full of processing equipment. Keep in mind the systems, at least ASOS which is deployed at the largest 1000 or so airports, were designed in the late '80s so that's the technology we're working with though parts, mainly the sensors, have been upgraded over time at select sites.

Judging by the abrupt cutoff, they have very little backup indeed. Perhaps there was no requirement for it at the time. It would be an inexpensive and useful retrofit imho.

[the ghost of leroy]

18 minutes ago, mattb65 said:

Guess u were right all along. Can't wait for the next buoy pressure/wind tracing that SENC posts 80 miles outside the eyewall.

Lol. Yeah, I should be teaming up with him to vindicate my ****ty call. 

[snowman21]

11 minutes ago, etudiant said:

Judging by the abrupt cutoff, they have very little backup indeed. Perhaps there was no requirement for it at the time. It would be an inexpensive and useful retrofit imho.

Would be tough to have a useful battery backup for something that sucks down 20 amps. You really need a generator like cell towers have. Of course that doesn't preclude the airport from simply turning off the weather station along with everything else when they do an emergency evacuation.

[etudiant]

32 minutes ago, snowman21 said:

Would be tough to have a useful battery backup for something that sucks down 20 amps. You really need a generator like cell towers have. Of course that doesn't preclude the airport from simply turning off the weather station along with everything else when they do an emergency evacuation.

That is a lot of power. Homes in the US used to have 40 amps total at the circuit breaker board. Here we're just feeding monitoring instruments, not fridges or ovens, so this is a lot for a scientific monitoring station. Perhaps it runs pen and ink recorders as part of the system. Certainly the instruments don't take anywhere near that much juice.

I can't believe that it would be that difficult to add some standby power, enough to keep the essential things going for an hour after the line power dies.

[Windspeed]

SENC is on the verge of Kevin Martin troll status. 

Perhaps anyone that engages SENC appears gullible, but when someone posts images or data sets from obs to support a claim, it should to be analyzed and explained like anything else. Otherwise, such posts can be misleading. There is also the possibility this person is legitimate and believes their point of view. Not everyone that reads these forums are capable of telling the difference however.

 

Crazy rambling rant? Sure, easy to ignore. Posting data or images to support a claim, no matter how misconstrued? Yeah, that's going to need to be explained. At the risk of having fed a troll, data is data. At any rate, if a discussion gets out of hand, there are mods.

[snowman21]

20 minutes ago, etudiant said:

That is a lot of power. Homes in the US used to have 40 amps total at the circuit breaker board. Here we're just feeding monitoring instruments, not fridges or ovens, so this is a lot for a scientific monitoring station. Perhaps it runs pen and ink recorders as part of the system. Certainly the instruments don't take anywhere near that much juice.

I can't believe that it would be that difficult to add some standby power, enough to keep the essential things going for an hour after the line power dies.

Standard in the U.S. is 200A service, even to most small apartments. Consider the cloud height indicator by itself can use more than 5A when the heater and blower are active. Most of the instruments have heaters that run nearly continuously in cold weather, so power consumption can add up fast. Plus there are various components and peripherals (computers and communication devices) inside the equipment cabinet which is about the size of a server rack. The whole system is pretty power hungry, more so than a major household appliance, when everything is maxed out.

[bricka1222]

This may have been posted already but:

Mexico Beach: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html#16/29.9489/-85.4177

Saint Joe Beach: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html#15/29.8995/-85.3554

Oh, and I guess if it just hasn't been posted recently: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html 

The crazy line of flattened forest vs. relatively unscathed houses is amazing.

[Keelala]

2 minutes ago, bricka1222 said:

This may have been posted already but:

Mexico Beach: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html#16/29.9489/-85.4177

Saint Joe Beach: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html#15/29.8995/-85.3554

 

Holy sh**

[NECT]

Battery backups generally are designed to run for a few minutes. It's possible to daisy chain additional battery packs to some UPS systems, and so long as they are consistently monitored and replaced, you can get about a day of runtime, but it's not an inexpensive endeavor. I believe that's what's used at a lot of cell towers. It would probably be tough to get that sort of funding for weather stations. Just ballparking an estimate, figure $4-5 K plus installation costs to install a UPS battery solution that would run for an hour.

[etudiant]

16 minutes ago, snowman21 said:

Standard in the U.S. is 200A service, even to most small apartments. Consider the cloud height indicator by itself can use more than 5A when the heater and blower are active. Most of the instruments have heaters that run nearly continuously in cold weather, so power consumption can add up fast. Plus there are various components and peripherals (computers and communication devices) inside the equipment cabinet which is about the size of a server rack. The whole system is pretty power hungry, more so than a major household appliance, when everything is maxed out.

Thank you, I knew US power standards have gone up considerably since the post WW2 40 amps, which was pre universal A/C and with smaller homes, but 200 amps is huge. 

Clearly, I'd not thought this instrumentation was that power hungry. Sounds like a good candidate for redesign, to take advantage of modern sensors. Maybe the shock of losing the data just when things are getting critical will kick the bureaucracy into action

[etudiant]

I'd think backup might be less than an hour, although that is a reasonable benchmark. The object is to collect the peak data if possible, rather than to be cut off because the district power line is down.

[AlexD1990]

I can't believe I just wasted the last 25 minutes of my life reading the last 120 posts in this dumpster fire.

I have never seen someone so completely insensible to common sense...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Hurricane Agnes]

9 hours ago, etudiant said:

Thank you, I knew US power standards have gone up considerably since the post WW2 40 amps, which was pre universal A/C and with smaller homes, but 200 amps is huge. 

Clearly, I'd not thought this instrumentation was that power hungry. Sounds like a good candidate for redesign, to take advantage of modern sensors. Maybe the shock of losing the data just when things are getting critical will kick the bureaucracy into action

This is a 10 year old pic of an ASOS's collection equipment but whatever you get needs to support a similar configuration if any of them have been significantly upgraded -

There are rack mount ones like this -

but these are only designed to stay up long enough to do an "orderly shutdown" (maybe 15 - 30 minutes max) and the above retails at almost $4k.

[sojitodd]

11 hours ago, bricka1222 said:

This may have been posted already but:

Mexico Beach: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html#16/29.9489/-85.4177

Saint Joe Beach: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html#15/29.8995/-85.3554

Oh, and I guess if it just hasn't been posted recently: https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/michael/index.html 

The crazy line of flattened forest vs. relatively unscathed houses is amazing.

Thanks for these links. 

 

You can see that at the subdivisions by Tyndall nearly every single house had roof damage, with some having lost their roofs completely.

[Amped]

1 hour ago, Hurricane Agnes said:

This is a 10 year old pic of an ASOS's collection equipment but whatever you get needs to support a similar configuration if any of them have been significantly upgraded -

There are rack mount ones like this -

but these are only designed to stay up long enough to do an "orderly shutdown" (maybe 15 - 30 minutes max) and the above retails at almost $4k.

I don't see why you need more size and power than a smartphone to measure wind speed, temp and pressure.

 

Edit: I forgot, sondes do all that and aren't that much larger than a phone.

[Hurricane Agnes]

2 minutes ago, Amped said:

I don't see why you need more size and power than a smartphone to measure wind speed, temp and pressure.

I am guessing they are doing a whole lot more than a consumer or co-op PWS, although obviously some PWSes are pretty high end. I know I don't have a setup like this. LOL -

I guess a red-tagger could chime in on what else the array is doing but I expect each one is transmitting continually nationwide (and/or to regions/central offices). And I am thinking the instruments are hardwired onsite directly to the office and right into the data closet.

[LSC97wxnut]

Not to bring up Brett Adair again, but it looks like if he would have turned off 98 and been on one of the residential streets that ran parallel just inland, he might not have been caught up in the surge?

It doesn't look like the surge penetrated to far inland where he was vs. further north. 

[NycStormChaser]

17 minutes ago, LSC97wxnut said:

Not to bring up Brett Adair again, but it looks like if he would have turned off 98 and been on one of the residential streets that ran parallel just inland, he might not have been caught up in the surge?

It doesn't look like the surge penetrated to far inland where he was vs. further north. 

FYI there were 4 chasers who rode out the storm there and experienced a similar situation as Bret did. One of them lost their vehicle as well. 

[NycStormChaser]

16 hours ago, burrel2 said:

You could say the same thing about PCB if the storms western eyewall had hit there, or 80% of the other major cities on the coastline.

We were in callaway in the western eye wall. I could not believe how much damage it did. Certainly higher than our expectations