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Morch Madness Negative NAO Long Range discussion


Ji

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I'm not sure we can overcome the obvious problem of the low to our west driving well north. Even hitting a block and retrograding/transferring won't really work because big damage has been done in the midlevels already. 12z EPS inspires no confidence either. Few if any solutions that will work around here and we're getting close to the time where the basic progression is figured out and not much chance at things trending our way. Unfortunately I think the 12z euro op is more of a best case scenario and very unlikely to happen. 

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On a positive note...the EPS is starting to pick up on a chance for a big storm in the 6th-8th window. Some very big hits showing up right now. It's logical that we don't score on the front side of blocking getting established. Even if next weekend is a fail, we still have a good chance for a solid March storm shortly after.  

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19 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

On a positive note...the EPS is starting to pick up on a chance for a big storm in the 6th-8th window. Some very big hits showing up right now. It's logical that we don't score on the front side of blocking getting established. Even if next weekend is a fail, we still have a good chance for a solid March storm shortly after.  

When the blocking starting showing up  the 5th through the 15th was the time period showing promise. Correct? I think we sacrifice next weekend for a big storm the following week. Hehe

Actually the 6th was when the 12z GFS had the bowling ball that ends up missing us. Seems that may be our window.

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24 minutes ago, losetoa6 said:

I think one of the advantages of a huge Block is slow moving or cutoff lows.  If we can get a low to blow up se of us and be in no hurry then the damage to the mid levels by a primary would have time to "recooperate " and the column would slowly come around ..a la rain to snow. I'm still watching this one for sure even if odds are low . Lots of time too. .imo.. tracking is just as fun as the snow falling imb. 

Agreed. I'm not writing it completely off but the setup even as short as d5 isn't good. There's nothing to stop the low from getting well north of our latitude. Once that happens then the only way to get it to work is some sort of very complicated and/or convoluted progression. This isn't that far out in time (only 6 days out) and it's not even close to working here:

 

ecmwf-ens_T850_mslp_us_7.png

 

Whatever approaches on the heels of this storm should keep our interest if this one goes down the tubes like it looks like right now. I'm not pessimistic at all for early March. Just not liking anything I'm seeing until we get to at least March 4-5th. 

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7 minutes ago, Chris78 said:

When the blocking starting showing up  the 5th through the 15th was the time period showing promise. Correct? I think we sacrifice next weekend for a big storm the following week. Hehe

Actually the 6th was when the 12z GFS had the bowling ball that ends up missing us. Seems that may be our window.

Yea, upper level pattern in the east doesn't really "get ripe" until the 5th give or take. I don't look at next weekend as a sacrifice though. It's not even looking like a near miss. At least to me anyways. EPS has a +PNA/-AO/-NAO d11-15. General height pattern looks really good to get something to track favorably. Patterns like the one we're seeing usually hang around for a while too. Might stay good right through the middle of the month and beyond. 

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36 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

On a positive note...the EPS is starting to pick up on a chance for a big storm in the 6th-8th window. Some very big hits showing up right now. It's logical that we don't score on the front side of blocking getting established. Even if next weekend is a fail, we still have a good chance for a solid March storm shortly after.  

e18 or e20 please ;)

I like that time frame as well as you stated

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27 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

On a positive note...the EPS is starting to pick up on a chance for a big storm in the 6th-8th window. Some very big hits showing up right now. It's logical that we don't score on the front side of blocking getting established. Even if next weekend is a fail, we still have a good chance for a solid March storm shortly after.  

Its becoming clear that the beginning of the blocky period is going to be pretty unfavorable for our area. Initially as the block retros SW, there is going to be a midlatitude ridge over/just west of us, and it may briefly bridge. Its likely going to take a little time for the hostile PAC to get bullied into "decent" territory. Realistically it looks like around March 5th is the beginning of the threat window, but h5 as currently modeled gets much more favorable just beyond that, and especially towards the 10th, with the conus ridge axis building further west and in a pretty good location for our region. At that point we very well may have a +PNA, -AO, -NAO combo.

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1 hour ago, Bob Chill said:

I'm not sure we can overcome the obvious problem of the low to our west driving well north. Even hitting a block and retrograding/transferring won't really work because big damage has been done in the midlevels already. 12z EPS inspires no confidence either. Few if any solutions that will work around here and we're getting close to the time where the basic progression is figured out and not much chance at things trending our way. Unfortunately I think the 12z euro op is more of a best case scenario and very unlikely to happen. 

 

45 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

On a positive note...the EPS is starting to pick up on a chance for a big storm in the 6th-8th window. Some very big hits showing up right now. It's logical that we don't score on the front side of blocking getting established. Even if next weekend is a fail, we still have a good chance for a solid March storm shortly after.  

 

42 minutes ago, losetoa6 said:

I think one of the advantages of a huge Block is slow moving or cutoff lows.  If we can get a low to blow up se of us and be in no hurry then the damage to the mid levels by a primary would have time to "recooperate " and the column would slowly come around ..a la rain to snow. I'm still watching this one for sure even if odds are low . Lots of time too. .imo.. tracking is just as fun as the snow falling imb. 

I agree with all 3. I didn't want to poop on the party so I've said it a couple times then shut up but rooting for the lead wave during the regime change was a loosing prop. If we had a better preceding inherent condition maybe but when blocking established and the preceding pattern is a torch it takes time and the first storm typically simply helps to crash heights and get things set for the next. Think Jan 16. The first storm even took a perfect track and was rain. 

That says losetoa is also right that very rarely in blocking patterns we have had storms go north with a wrecked thermal profile then height falls jump to the mid Atlantic coast and something bombs and we go to snow. It's super rare even in blocking but if it's ever going to happen a -4 std block is when. So I'm not expecting it and it's a 1/100 type thing but why not keep an eye on it while tracking the better threat day 10-13. 

Ive always liked that window and still do as our first real legit threat. We might get another or two after as well. EPS looks loaded right to day 15. 

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52 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

On a positive note...the EPS is starting to pick up on a chance for a big storm in the 6th-8th window. Some very big hits showing up right now. It's logical that we don't score on the front side of blocking getting established. Even if next weekend is a fail, we still have a good chance for a solid March storm shortly after.  

 

Decent signal shows itself on the MSLP Anomaly plot. Or maybe its just noise. Lol. 

eps_mslpa_noram_51.png

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21 minutes ago, WeathermanB said:

I need to see the EPS ensembles for snow i'm a visual learner, not just text.

And what would you learn exactly from seeing a 15 day snowfall mean?

If my attachments folder wasn't 100% full, I still wouldn't post it. Thats how unimpressive it is. There is your visual.

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2 hours ago, Thanatos_I_Am said:

What a crazy evolution this is as depicted.

Yeah that is not happening. I mean it could, but I would eat my hat or something. The ops are struggling with the front end of the developing block. Biggest problem is (for a favorable outcome in our general area) the PAC is really awful as the NA block is retrograding and nearing peak strength. We need to be patient, as difficult as that is.

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1 hour ago, C.A.P.E. said:

And what would you learn exactly from seeing a 15 day snowfall mean?

If my attachments folder wasn't 100% full, I still wouldn't post it. Thats how unimpressive it is. There is your visual.

A little surly are we? :lol:

Didn't look too hard into today's runs but from what I did see i thought we saw some improvements. Big takeaway I had though was I thought the models move away somewhat from the idea of a full latitude ridge.

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2 minutes ago, showmethesnow said:

A little surly are we? :lol:

Didn't look too hard into today's runs but from what I did see i thought we saw some improvements. Big takeaway I had though was I thought the models move away somewhat from the idea of a full latitude ridge.

Well we had some sort of a reverse ninja there lol. I am thinking the full lat ridge is probably going to happen for a time. Seeing it occur too often on the op runs to ignore. Check out the hot off the press 18z GFS.

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44 minutes ago, C.A.P.E. said:

Well we had some sort of a reverse ninja there lol. I am thinking the full lat ridge is probably going to happen for a time. Seeing it occur too often on the op runs to ignore. Check out the hot off the press 18z GFS.

Reverse ninja. I like that.

But let me elaborate a little more because I do think we may be on the same page. My biggest fear was that we would see a stable full latitude ridge. But I think the 12Z runs have moved away from that idea somewhat. What I believe we are now seeing is the idea of a very transient ridge that is merely a stepping stone in the evolution of the pattern to a bridging of strong higher heights from a +PNA over top through Canada into the NAO domain. Being transient in nature this ridge should do very little damage and may be a necessary evil to achieve a very good look beyond it.

 

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