2018 Mid-Atlantic General Severe Discussion

[Eskimo Joe]

6 minutes ago, osfan24 said:

Definitely a rare event but how are we still in the middle of it? It's over.

Still need to wait for runoff to stop.

[osfan24]

1 minute ago, Eskimo Joe said:

Still need to wait for runoff to stop.

Oh got it. I took it as there was more rain coming. Yeah that's going to take some time.

[smokeybandit]

19 minutes ago, Eskimo Joe said:

That first picture...wow

 

I've seen people park worse than that in this region

[mdhokie]

1 hour ago, Kmlwx said:

Yeah the amount of people on social media saying "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE TO PREVENT THIS" is kind of surprising to me. Do people not know how powerful water is? The topography and layout of Ellicott City is conducive to tragic flooding like this. 

If you for example create barriers somewhere (assuming they hold and are effective) - you probably cause a flood someplace else next time. 

Was just in a tweet thread with a person who keeps insisting that "we shouldn't have to just accept it and deal with it - something needs to be done this time" - The user kept talking about "better drainage" - yeah...not going to work with topography like that and 10 inches of rain. 

I live a couple miles south and there has been too much development in the watershed in that area. Forests cut down and paved, farm land built up and paved. There are stormwater management rules now but the developers know how to get around them. My mom is in a development that is dealing with clogged drywells and incorrectly installed storm water controls. No one inspects these things while they are being built and by the time you realize they aren't working as intended its too late. 

The downtown area would still flood, but not to this degree. At this point it might be worth it to build some sort of elevated board walk on stilts. Close the road to traffic and only allow businesses in the 2nd+ floors. Or get Elon Musk to bore a huge tunnel underneath. I know DC is building huge underground tunnels to store excess storm water.

[Eskimo Joe]

 

[nw baltimore wx]

Part EC's problem, and elsewhere is the region, is also probably over-development. There's a lot of concrete all sloping into those tributaries around downtown.

edit...I agree with Maestro 

[Eskimo Joe]

 

[Mrs.J]

1 minute ago, mdhokie said:

I live a couple miles south and there has been too much development in the watershed in that area. Forests cut down and paved, farm land built up and paved. There are stormwater management rules now but the developers know how to get around them. My mom is in a development that is dealing with clogged drywells and incorrectly installed storm water controls. No one inspects these things while they are being built and by the time you realize they aren't working as intended its too late. 

The downtown area would still flood, but not to this degree. At this point it might be worth it to build some sort of elevated board walk on stilts. Close the road to traffic and only allow businesses in the 2nd+ floors. Or get Elon Musk to bore a huge tunnel underneath. I know DC is building huge underground tunnels to store excess storm water.

Can they do what was done in Downtown Frederick? Along with the Carroll Creek Linear Park there are underground flood tunnels. Now yes Downtown still has flooding, remember just back a week and a half ago. But it was not to the extent of the bad flooding that had previously happened. Other areas had bad flooding, north end of town. But where the the flood tunnels are it fared quite well. 

[Eskimo Joe]

15 minutes ago, Mrs.J said:

Can they do what was done in Downtown Frederick? Along with the Carroll Creek Linear Park there are underground flood tunnels. Now yes Downtown still has flooding, remember just back a week and a half ago. But it was not to the extent of the bad flooding that had previously happened. Other areas had bad flooding, north end of town. But where the the flood tunnels are it fared quite well. 

That can certainly be done, it's a well known mitigation process.  The challenge is that Ellicott City is "historic" and any construction will have to be done within the historic confines.  Additionally, a project of this magnitude would take a few years.  Had flood mitigation work started after the 2016 flood, it most likely would not have been done by now.  

[Mrs.J]

8 minutes ago, Eskimo Joe said:

That can certainly be done, it's a well known mitigation process.  The challenge is that Ellicott City is "historic" and any construction will have to be done within the historic confines.  Additionally, a project of this magnitude would take a few years.  Had flood mitigation work started after the 2016 flood, it most likely would not have been done by now.  

Downtown Frederick is historic as well. Hence why they went underground. The flood control tunnels start at Baker Park and then are diverted out of town. But yes do agree with you that even if work had been started it would have not have helped. 

[PrinceFrederickWx]

24 minutes ago, mdhokie said:

There are stormwater management rules now but the developers know how to get around them. My mom is in a development that is dealing with clogged drywells and incorrectly installed storm water controls. No one inspects these things while they are being built and by the time you realize they aren't working as intended its too late.

This x 1000

This is a big issue in my county and a lot of other areas in this state. I had a stormwater inspector here flat out admit to me that they don’t inspect anything in our neighborhood after its completed other than driving through to make sure there’s “general compliance” by the builder. Other states are much more regulated in this regard.

And when actual drainage issues are pointed out, you’re just told that the permits have been closed and there’s nothing they can do. 

[PrinceFrederickWx]

It’s been pouring here again. Just crossed the 4” mark for the day. 

[Eskimo Joe]

 

[BTRWx's Thanks Giving]

https://www.wusa9.com/article/weather/weather-blog/why-ellicott-city-is-prone-to-flooding/559034763

[Amped]

43 minutes ago, Eskimo Joe said:

 

http://darkroom.baltimoresun.com/2016/07/from-the-vault-historic-floods-in-ellicott-city-maryland/#1

Even take it a step further Baltimore Sun has reported on a lot of them.

[Eskimo Joe]

Rainfall numbers.  

[smokeybandit]

The lone missing person in Ellicott CIty is still missing.  I fear that's a recovery mission now, not a rescue one

[Eskimo Joe]

1 minute ago, smokeybandit said:

The lone missing person in Ellicott CIty is still missing.  I fear that's a recovery mission now, not a rescue one

National Guard person who was off duty but waded into the water to check a car and see if someone was inside.  He was swept down into the river.

[smokeybandit]

I knew who that guy was. He was a friend of a friend that I had met several times at parties/outings back in the good ole single/kidless days in that social circle

[Amped]

1 death is not a lot, considering how bad the video looked.   Most people must have gt to higher ground in time.

[Eskimo Joe]

300 water rescues were performed yesterday in Maryland.

[smokeybandit]

Man, the guy was trying to rescue someone's cat.  I bet that cat owner feels awful

[Amped]

2 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

Man, the guy was trying to rescue someone's cat.  I bet that cat owner feels awful

https://www.buzzfeed.com/lamvo/national-guard-flash-floods-eddison-alexander-ellicott-city?utm_term=.rmA34VbAw#.owB2b586B

It was a woman with a cat, not just a cat.

[Amped]

23 hours ago, nw baltimore wx said:

Part EC's problem, and elsewhere is the region, is also probably over-development. There's a lot of concrete all sloping into those tributaries around downtown.

edit...I agree with Maestro 

https://envisionfrederickcounty.org/ellicott-city-flood-stop-calling-it-a-natural-disaster/

This guy from 2016 also agrees

Quote

ELLICOTT CITY FLOOD: Stop calling it a natural disaster!

By Brian KelmAugust 6, 2016

For more than 200 years, most flooding — and the worst flooding — in Ellicott City came from the rising of the Patapsco River. And the damage was generally limited to lower Main Street.

During major rain storms, runoff was slowed or water was absorbed into the ground in the surrounding woods north and west of town. The usually small Tiber River, which runs east along Fredrick Road, was able to handle the increased flow that ran down through the heart of town.

In recent decades, however, developers, the Howard County Zoning Board, and our elected officials have planned and implemented the replacement of much of the forest and other open space with medium and high density housing, and the roads and other impervious surfaces that go with it.

Most of the development within the yellow line in the aerial view (above) was built in the last two decades. When you build and pave over much the natural terrain, and add roads and sewers that lead directly to Main Street (identified with the red lines), you get more water — perhaps a lot more water — draining much quicker and flowing a lot faster, right through town, and causing a lot more damage on the way.

 

[Eskimo Joe]

3 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

Man, the guy was trying to rescue someone's cat.  I bet that cat owner feels awful

Nope.  It was a woman, not her cat.

[mattskiva]

On 5/27/2018 at 9:49 PM, PrinceFrederickWx said:

This x 1000

This is a big issue in my county and a lot of other areas in this state. I had a stormwater inspector here flat out admit to me that they don’t inspect anything in our neighborhood after its completed other than driving through to make sure there’s “general compliance” by the builder. Other states are much more regulated in this regard.

I would frankly find it very surprising to learn that there are states that are more regulated than Maryland, in any capacity.  Well, maybe California, but even that has to be pretty close.

 

[osfan24]

Frankly, the image showing development above Main Street Ellicott City is not all that crazy to me. There isn't really that much development there to blame this on that. I'm sure it played a small part in exacerbating things, but anytime you have a narrow mill town at the bottom of a hill with a major river running both under and through it and you get insane rainfall rates for a few hours, this is what happens. Catonsville is more developed than Ellicott City, and while there were flood issues there, nothing destroyed the town because the river doesn't run near the developed areas and the town isn't located at the bottom of a steep hill.

[EastCoast NPZ]

Yeah, not too many places on earth where 10 - 12 inches of rain in 3 hours is not going to cause big problems.  This is another case of environmental alarm-ism.  Not a fan of urban development, but to use that as the cause of the flooding and imply it a man-made disaster is ridiculous.

The question that needs to be asked is how can EC, FDK, et al continue to rack up huge rain totals while I've yet to have a single-storm get me more than .7" this year.  That is the issue that needs to be addressed.

[mappy]

a body was found in the Patapsco River today

 

[Eskimo Joe]

17 minutes ago, EastCoast NPZ said:

Yeah, not too many places on earth where 10 - 12 inches of rain in 3 hours is not going to cause big problems.  This is another case of environmental alarm-ism.  Not a fan of urban development, but to use that as the cause of the flooding and imply it a man-made disaster is ridiculous.

The question that needs to be asked is how can EC, FDK, et al continue to rack up huge rain totals while I've yet to have a single-storm get me more than .7" this year.  That is the issue that needs to be addressed.

Agreed on the rainfall number, but the tenacity of the event is magnified by human decisions and the terrain.  10" - 12" on Delmarva is just a pond...not a raging torrent.  There are certain businesses that will probably have to be torn down this time.