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December Model Discussion


UlsterCountySnowZ

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Just now, bluewave said:

The latest JMA this morning continues the theme of cold and snow chances week one and 2. Its going to the relaxation idea weeks 3-4 like the EPE seasonal and weeklies have been showing for a while.

 

Get me to Jan 10 with what is forecast and we will need a break. Weeklies tonight , here is one thing people have to understand , the weeklies may be 2 weeks of plus 5 , but in mid Jan that is a lot different than plus 5 in early December.

We can always snow in bad patterns in mid Jan / see  Jan 2016 , just something to file. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, PB COLTS NECK NJ said:

 

Get me to Jan 10 with what is forecast and we will need a break. Weeklies tonight , here is one thing people have to understand , the weeklies may be 2 weeks of plus 5 , but in mid Jan that is a lot different than plus 5 in early December.

We can always snow in bad patterns in mid Jan / see  Jan 2016 , just something to file. 

 

 

+5 in many

interior sections in mid January will probably still only be around mid thirties in the daytime.

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1 minute ago, PB COLTS NECK NJ said:

 

Get me to Jan 10 with what is forecast and we will need a break. Weeklies tonight , here is one thing people have to understand , the weeklies may be 2 weeks of plus 5 , but in mid Jan that is a lot different than plus 5 in early December.

We can always snow in bad patterns in mid Jan / see  Jan 2016 , just something to file. 

 

 

The closest analogs to this so far may be a combination of 95-96 and 2010-11 without the -NAOs.  It could come down to if the colder anomalies begin shifting as they did in 10-11.  That may tell us if we see simply a January thaw or we flip warm and don’t go back 

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1 minute ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said:

Lol @ last 4 Gefs and GFS 

B88AF4FA-92A0-4D13-A858-C7FEE6830BC6.gif

 

- EPO Arctic waves. That`s why we don`t look at the SLP on the guidance 5 days out. The model always places the SW on the polar front and then finds a way to stick it on the Arctic boundary.

 

These fade to the BM /

Why I really like the Christmas period 

 

Taking a look at this mornings day 10 EPS you can see the start of softening SE of the BM

All the operational have seen this to some degree or another and with various precip types from run to run.

 

So models aside , I am going to favor the pattern here and what these Arctic waves typically likes to do , and that's find its way to the BM.

That should allow us to remain on the favorable side of the barroclinic zone.

 

With a -4 SD EPO it will dominate the pattern. -EPO confluence / HP systems press through the lakes and are usually under modeled in the L/R.

We have a dominate well sourced vortex over Hudson Bay as the 0 line will be at the US / Canada border. ( that's 0 Fahrenheit) ,so this press should actually dominate the flow and suppression should be more of a worry to me than rain.

 

So that SE ridge albeit weak will be a necessity and help guide one or more of these positively tilted SWs out of TX off the Delmarva and ending up near the BM

 

There are forcing`s that are greater than numerical guidance, Operational runs come and go , but it is important to identify the type of system you are dealing with , the models will come to you. 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, SnowGoose69 said:

The closest analogs to this so far may be a combination of 95-96 and 2010-11 without the -NAOs.  It could come down to if the colder anomalies begin shifting as they did in 10-11.  That may tell us if we see simply a January thaw or we flip warm and don’t go back 

 

Hard for me to believe that we end winter on Jan 10. 

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24 minutes ago, PB COLTS NECK NJ said:

 

Get me to Jan 10 with what is forecast and we will need a break. Weeklies tonight , here is one thing people have to understand , the weeklies may be 2 weeks of plus 5 , but in mid Jan that is a lot different than plus 5 in early December.

We can always snow in bad patterns in mid Jan / see  Jan 2016 , just something to file. 

 

 

Even if we do get some relaxation of the pattern week 3-4, I don't think it will be the end of winter. There is bound to be more -EPO intervals for snow and cold. Maybe we get lucky and see some -NAO help along the way. 

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27 minutes ago, PB COLTS NECK NJ said:

 

Hard for me to believe that we end winter on Jan 10. 

I dunno. On January 10th, I think I will be pretty certain that winter won't last forever. But it wouldn't really be us ending it when it does...more of a natural cycle sort of thing.

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56 minutes ago, PB COLTS NECK NJ said:

 

Get me to Jan 10 with what is forecast and we will need a break. Weeklies tonight , here is one thing people have to understand , the weeklies may be 2 weeks of plus 5 , but in mid Jan that is a lot different than plus 5 in early December.

We can always snow in bad patterns in mid Jan / see  Jan 2016 , just something to file. 

 

 

I would much rather have borderline cold and active storms than overwhelming cold and suppression city. 

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39 minutes ago, PB COLTS NECK NJ said:

 

Hard for me to believe that we end winter on Jan 10. 

 

23 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Even if we do get some relaxation of the pattern week 3-4, I don't think it will be the end of winter. There is bound to be more -EPO intervals for snow and cold. Maybe we get lucky and see some -NAO help along the way. 

Yeah I have to agree here.  Aside from the sheer improbability of such an abrupt end (2010-11 seems like an oddball), the past few winters tend to favor extended -EPO periods.  You'd also have to think that we get some transient, non-PAC-related help at some point too.  I wouldn't even be surprised if we get a freak, low single digit cold snap later in the winter as well (ala Feb. 2016 Kara Ridge-aided trip below 0°F)....just the way things have broken for us in the past few years.

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2 minutes ago, snowman19 said:

Or nothing at all. The Euro just completely and totally dumped the storm, like the GFS has. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Zip Zero

Yesterday you were on the rain train / today you buying a whiff ? 

 

That`s gona make you wrong twice on one storm. ( kind of a record in here my man ) . 

 

You don`t forecast model run to model run.

 

So let`s keep score, you`re 60 and rain busted. ( I THINK WE CAN AGREE THAT IS NOT HAPPENING RIGHT ? ) 

Now you are on the whiff train - let`s score that soon. 

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5 minutes ago, PB COLTS NECK NJ said:

Now some of you need to be careful when reading SNOWMAN .

 

The Euro just completely and totally dumped the storm, like the GFS has. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Zip Zero

 

OPENLY LYING TO THE BOARD SHOULD GET HIM A TIMEOUT.

 

image.png

 

5a3bfbf9874bc.png

 

 

THE BOARD CAN NOT PERMIT LYING. 

 

 

 

I would love for there to be a storm, but .01 of precip is basically equal to no storm...

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12 minutes ago, snowman19 said:

Or nothing at all. The Euro just completely and totally dumped the storm, like the GFS had. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Zip Zero

That's not entirely accurate.  Gets a small amount of snow to the coast, which as I understand is exactly what most have been expecting...nothing more....  If you're going to model-watch, at least be honest about what each run shows man.

 

ETA: Ninja'ed by Paul!

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29 minutes ago, Snow88 said:

Looks like snow showers for the area on Xmas

 

Euro shifted pretty far east and weaker.

 

Still a few more runs to go

I saw this coming after last nights run.

It was a shift towards the flatter and weaker GFS.

The long range NAM from 12z as well as the rest of the guidance prior to the Euro was telling.

Just look at the 500mb jet and compare it to yesterday's run. As they say, the trend is not your friend.

sketched_5a3c01ee7f532.png

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5 minutes ago, Eduardo said:

That's not entirely accurate.  Gets a small amount of snow to the coast, which as I understand is exactly what most have been expecting...nothing more....  If you're going to model-watch, at least be honest about what each run shows man.

 

ETA: Ninja'ed by Paul!

That’s what he does.  He did it with our first storm on the 10th... the NAM showed a hit and he bought a joke posted on the New England forums that it was a miss.   Trollman19 at his finest...hopefully the mods get involved for him posting false model info. 

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The lack of humility, and even worse, the apparent forgetfullness of some of those same people who made grandiose claims only to be dead wrong in recent weeks, is killing this forum. Discuss the storm as a future entity, no one gives a sh*t if youre wrong or right if you can post about it in a proper manner. Getting it right because you learned something, or even better, TAUGHT something, is a lot better than getting it right because youve thrown the pessimistic darts at the wall for years, hoping some will stick to outweigh some of the blatant weeniesm. Back up your claims with models, meteorology, even bill evans blog for all i care. Any posts that discuss other posters (not their posts, the actual posters), claim victory 4 days before a storm, or any other nonsense, regardless of how well thought out the rest of the post is, are going to be deleted so we can start cleaning this up and having respectable threads.

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7 minutes ago, NJwx85 said:

They aren't as far apart if you go back to the amplified, less progressive pattern the Euro had previously. 

I think this will just slow it down which is good for us 

image.png

 

Use the GFS ensembles , the Euro at 186 is feeding back out west so it elongates the flow and sends it E of the Carolina`s. The NEG will be more West to East and that ridge will allow 186 to come N. 

gfs-ens_z500a_namer_32.png

 

 

 

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Looks like my previous post regarding this was deleted, not sure why.

Here's another shot:

If you look at the trend of the 500mb jet over the last three cycles of the Euro you can see a clear shift towards the flatter, weaker GFS.

You still have quite a bit of energy wrapping around the base of the trough, however you have no mechanism to force development of the SLP on a more Northeasterly trajectory. 

Instead the redevelopment occurs and moves ENE, leaving most of the area with dry and cold conditions.

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