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December 2017 Discussions & Observations Thread


Rtd208

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36 minutes ago, SnoSki14 said:

06z gfs does show how that gradient ends up north of us, I don't think anything is set in stone yet. 

Right now, I wouldn’t be too concerned about the 6z run. The pattern should become more favorable for cold and snow going forward as the EPO plunges and its expanding ridge pushes the AO negative (11/15 or 73% of 4” or greater snowstorms in NYC during the second half of December occurred with a negative AO). Also, the 10-20 day period after December snowstorms that brought 4” or more snow to Philadelphia, New York, and Boston featured Arctic outbreaks 10-20 days later in 5 of the 8 cases. That makes the 12/20-30 period a time to watch for such outbreaks. The pattern shown on the ensembles leads me to have above average confidence in a return to winter conditions by 12/25 +/- 2 days. I also expect the month to see teens in NYC with a modest chance of single digits before it ends.

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3 minutes ago, uncle W said:

the ao forecast is all over the place in the long run...it's a torch or brutal cold and snow...

 

ao 12 16 17.gif

Two days ago, most members were positive. In this case there is a strong consensus that it will fall sharply with the timing being the issue (large left-right spread among the falling ensemble members).

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4 minutes ago, donsutherland1 said:

Two days ago, most members were positive. In this case there is a strong consensus that it will fall sharply with the timing being the issue (large left-right spread among the falling ensemble members).

I always worry about the one that rises in the long run...

 

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1 hour ago, bluewave said:

The Pacific is really running the blocking show now anyway.

There in lies a problem, once we loose the Pacific, and there are signs that MAY (may) happen come January, we are dead in the water. The NAO hasn’t cooperated in years, it just wants to default positive in winter and the AO hasn’t really either, it’s been more neutral so far recently however. If the -EPO/-WPO go bye bye, it’s going to get ugly real fast. With a background La Niña in place, the PNA isn’t going to cooperate (+) for long periods of time

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21 minutes ago, bluewave said:

There could very well be a period of Pacific blocking relaxation or reversal after January 7th. But that doesn't mean that we won't  see any more -EPO intervals during the remainder of the winter. The La Nina last winter still produced snowy periods despite the warmth in each of the winter months when the EPO went negative. The slightly -EPO last DJF was all that was needed to get us to normal to above normal snowfall. We have already exceeded the normal December snowfall and the month is only half way through. It just wants to snow in the new climate regime here.

I think snowman19 has been a good luck charm...ever since he joined in 2015 it snowed despite the warmth and we even saw the biggest snowfall on record...

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1 hour ago, snowman19 said:

There in lies a problem, once we loose the Pacific, and there are signs that MAY (may) happen come January, we are dead in the water. The NAO hasn’t cooperated in years, it just wants to default positive in winter and the AO hasn’t really either, it’s been more neutral so far recently however. If the -EPO/-WPO go bye bye, it’s going to get ugly real fast. With a background La Niña in place, the PNA isn’t going to cooperate (+) for long periods of time

Mehhhh let's see though.  In the EPO-dominated winters we've experienced this decade, I remember people incessantly raising the same concerns.  But in the end, everybody (and every LR) model understimated the durability of that block, which always seemed to reemerge after brief relaxations.  Granted, we currently don't have the NPAC "blob" of warm water we had back in those years, but I think this works out well for us in the end.

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2 hours ago, snowman19 said:

There in lies a problem, once we loose the Pacific, and there are signs that MAY (may) happen come January, we are dead in the water. The NAO hasn’t cooperated in years, it just wants to default positive in winter and the AO hasn’t really either, it’s been more neutral so far recently however. If the -EPO/-WPO go bye bye, it’s going to get ugly real fast. With a background La Niña in place, the PNA isn’t going to cooperate (+) for long periods of time

That will be a problem towards the second half of January to the first of February. After that. The NAO will have its French Onion dips. 

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17 minutes ago, bluewave said:

We have done well in the snowfall department no matter how positive the NAO has been in the winters since 13-14. The -EPO has really stepped up to the plate to provide the blocking necessary for snow. That being said, my favorite snowstorms of the 2010's so far have been -NAO driven. It's tough to produce the higher echelon of storms like we saw in 10-11 and January 2016 without a -NAO assist. 

Are you just referring to the immediate coast or NE in general? 3/14/17 blizzard was quite the event and prob ranks among my top 5.

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31 minutes ago, bluewave said:

The immediate coast from NYC to my area of Western Suffolk. The +NAO can be better for interior areas like we saw with record interior snow last March. 

Seems like even just some transient blocking has delivered on this too, Chris.  Just goes to show that, between the nickel and dime events and the fairly frequent blockbusters we have seen this decade, we have been supremely spoiled down here on the coast.  I suspect that, model writhing aside, our luck will continue for at least the first half of this winter and possibly beyond.  I distinctly remember models being far too quick to break down the NPAC block in years past.  Why should this one be any different?

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15 minutes ago, Snow88 said:

What ?

It shows a wave along the front

 

It should be colder than what the models show.

I believe that the definition of a grinch storm is causing confusion. In the NE thread they are using it as a storm that washes away any snowpack, the storm next weekend would fit that definition 

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52 minutes ago, IrishRob17 said:

I believe that the definition of a grinch storm is causing confusion. In the NE thread they are using it as a storm that washes away any snowpack, the storm next weekend would fit that definition 

Interesting how every year around the winter solstice since 2011 we get a warm up. This year will be shorter in duration than some of the recent years before we turn colder again.

NYC max temps near winter solstice since 2011

12-18-16...58

12-24-15...72

12-25-14...62

12-22-13...71

12-21-12...56

12-21-11...62

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4 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Interesting how every year around the winter solstice since 2011 we get a warm up. This year will be shorter in duration that some of the recent years before we turn colder again.

NYC max temps near winter solstice since 2011

12-18-16...58

12-24-15...72

12-25-14...62

12-22-13...71

12-21-12...56

12-21-11...62

Yeah, it’s sadthat I see it as a given that I will not keep my snow for Christmas but I’m holding out hope that it will be chilly at least...

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The big cutter just finishing everything off in the transition may be best.  The prior scenarios where the system was weaker allowed the SE ridge to drag it’s heels more and takes days longer to get pushed out.  This may just set everything back in place.  I said 2-3 days ago that I thought the quick cutter back to trof idea was going to likely be the end result 

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