RUNNAWAYICEBERG Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 28 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said: It seems to me that we are having a normal progression of snow pack being laid down from north to south. Been frustrating to see SNE exceeding climo to a greater % than here for several times in recent years. I want mine too. So far I've had about a foot and there is a good pack which will likely be around til at least March. I think it will help in borderline events in the next couple of weeks, although in a big cutter nothing can save any of us. An occasional cutter is good though for the pack queens like me. Anyone residing close to Canada has every right to be a pack queen. Your economy and general well being rely on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 36 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said: An occasional cutter is good though for the pack queens like me. That's bullsh*t lol. Dont ever try to make cutters sound like a good thing. Your pack will be fine without rain . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Just now, powderfreak said: That's bullsh*t lol. Dont ever try to make cutters sound like a good thing. Your pack will be fine without rain. Violently agree. That's like saying a loss is good in sports. Eff no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 37 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said: It seems to me that we are having a normal progression of snow pack being laid down from north to south. Been frustrating to see SNE exceeding climo to a greater % than here for several times in recent years. I want mine too. So far I've had about a foot and there is a good pack which will likely be around til at least March. I think it will help in borderline events in the next couple of weeks, although in a big cutter nothing can save any of us. An occasional cutter is good though for the pack queens like me. Heresy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahk_webstah Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 OK b***hes, I apologize. However, some rain in a pack does create an almost impenetrable crust and you know it! 35:1 powder can vanish! Granted, I want it to happen while I'm away, or while sleeping, and to be immediately followed by a few inches of snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, CoastalWx said: Violently agree. That's like saying a loss is good in sports. Eff no. Haha yeah. In Mark's defense, I once used that logic a decade ago in trying to pyschologicaly reason with winter rain and a relatively famous east coast skier chimed in with similar to what I said to Mark... "That's complete crap, it doesn't rain in the Colorado or Montana Rockies and they get a lot of powder that has no problem building up a lasting and deep snowpack." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said: OK b***hes, I apologize. However, some rain in a pack does create an almost impenetrable crust and you know it! 35:1 powder can vanish! Granted, I want it to happen while I'm away, or while sleeping, and to be immediately followed by a few inches of snow. Wet snow will freeze solid too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said: OK b***hes, I apologize. However, some rain in a pack does create an almost impenetrable crust and you know it! 35:1 powder can vanish! Granted, I want it to happen while I'm away, or while sleeping, and to be immediately followed by a few inches of snow. lol just messin with ya but powder can vanish but not if it doesn't get warm. You're sort of saying you want a cutter to protect you from future cutters. Ideally it just snows on top of snow and repeat. Sometimes dense snow, sometimes fluffy snow, but just keep it coming and your pack will be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said: OK b***hes, I apologize. However, some rain in a pack does create an almost impenetrable crust and you know it! 35:1 powder can vanish! Granted, I want it to happen while I'm away, or while sleeping, and to be immediately followed by a few inches of snow. Well, there's a diff between like FZRA and 47F rain from a cutter....the former will solidify a pack, the latter will just weaken it. Yeah, it will make it rock solid to stand on top of when it refreezes, but it damages the crystal structure in the process and you probably have a net loss retention ability in the future. A 33-35F rain isn't as damaging, and could be a net contributor to pack sustainability. But cutters usually goes into the 40s and 50s at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahk_webstah Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said: Well, there's a diff between like FZRA and 47F rain from a cutter....the former will solidify a pack, the latter will just weaken it. Yeah, it will make it rock solid to stand on top of when it refreezes, but it damages the crystal structure in the process and you probably have a net loss retention ability in the future. A 33-35F rain isn't as damaging, and could be a net contributor to pack sustainability. But cutters usually goes into the 40s and 50s at some point. We only get 33-35 degree rains up here in Dendrite-land. But now you have me worried. The next time it rains I'm going to have to monitor my crystal structure and worry about net loss retention. When does it end?! I'm dreaming of a white Christmas Despite the cutter post I write Where there's high net retention powder Not snow like frozen chowder And crystal structure's out of sight.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Heading back north, can't wait to get up there. MVL has still been snowing pretty steadily based on vis. With temps around 10F now that 1sm snow can top it off nicely. METAR KMVL 131540Z AUTO 32007KT 1SM -SN VV016 M11/M13 A2927 RMK AO2 P0000 T11061133 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wxeyeNH Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 35 minutes ago, CoastalWx said: Violently agree. That's like saying a loss is good in sports. Eff no. You guys will hate me but I agree with Mark a bit. I am learning and learning as I live up here longer. Cutters will kill almost everyone including PF. However, time and time again (like yesterday when I stayed in the low 20's) my little CAD refrigerator keeps me cold. So a cutter will bring SNE up to 50 something and even VT but here just south of the Whites I'll start in the 20's and inch up into the 30's for a brief while. As the fropa passes I will briefly jump to the low 40's which melts the pack and then refreeze into a glacier. I have learned that the warmth that cutters bring just rarely happens for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 minute ago, wxeyeNH said: You guys will hate me but I agree with Mark a bit. I am learning and learning as I live up here longer. Cutters will kill almost everyone including PF. However, time and time again (like yesterday when I stayed in the low 20's) my little CAD refrigerator keeps me cold. So a cutter will bring SNE up to 50 something and even VT but here just south of the Whites I'll start in the 20's and inch up into the 30's for a brief while. As the fropa passes I will briefly jump to the low 40's which melts the pack and then refreeze into a glacier. I have learned that the warmth that cutters bring just rarely happens for me. Well as long as we CAD we're okay...but occasionally we do get the 55/55 cutters that vaporize the snow. I'll take fluff over a cutter anyday. It may settle and compress quickly, but it's still a net gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 42 minutes ago, mahk_webstah said: OK b***hes, I apologize. However, some rain in a pack does create an almost impenetrable crust and you know it! 35:1 powder can vanish! Granted, I want it to happen while I'm away, or while sleeping, and to be immediately followed by a few inches of snow. I'd guess than 1" LE of 35:1 pow will disappear no faster than 1" LE of frozen 4:1 crud, and probably mores lowly since it's apt to be a colder pack. (Would love to see stuff so light that a 35" depth has only 1" LE!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, wxeyeNH said: As the fropa passes I will briefly jump to the low 40's which melts the pack and then refreeze into a glacier. I have learned that the warmth that cutters bring just rarely happens for me. Yes but why is that good for the pack, lol. It protects you maybe against future cutters? You are saying that melting it and refreezing it is good? Better than not having a cutter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, tamarack said: I'd guess than 1" LE of 35:1 pow will disappear no faster than 1" LE of frozen 4:1 crud, and probably mores lowly since it's apt to be a colder pack. (Would love to see stuff so light that a 35" depth has only 1" LE!) The only thing I could see is that fluff would have more surface area exposed to potential dry air than an ice cubed pack would. So that would increase the sublimation rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, tamarack said: I'd guess than 1" LE of 35:1 pow will disappear no faster than 1" LE of frozen 4:1 crud, and probably mores lowly since it's apt to be a colder pack. (Would love to see stuff so light that a 35" depth has only 1" LE!) Yeah that's why I find at the mountain...melt is almost entirely related to the liquid eqiv in the pack. 42" of fluff will take the same energy as 14" of cement if it's the same LE. I prefer to keep my snow as unmolested as possible for as long as possible. Even a quick cutter will start to break down the snow into granular stuff and the process has started for the next cutter. Decent amount of energy is spent in that initial change from flakes to granular...which is why the first cutter is often like "wow lot more snow left than I thought" but the later ones start to do the real damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, dendrite said: The only thing I could see is that fluff would have more surface area exposed to potential dry air than an ice cubed pack would. So that would increase the sublimation rate. I agree... like a sunny March day with 19% RH will do more damage to fluff than ice pack but by that time it's usually all ice pack to some extent. Ice crust on top will help as the sun angle increases, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Liquid over snow is not good. Period. I should not have to defend that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 You can go the energy route if you are talking March sun burn off...but the deeper the pack..the better overall. By then it's usually a glacier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 ZR over a pack is what I used to like to protect it assuming I couldn't get a perennially cold pattern...the ZR wouldn't damage the ice crystals in most of the pack as it mostly freezes near the surface on contact, but yet it created a protective casing on it so that sublimation was very low and didn't allow moderately warm days (say, mid to upper 30s) to do any damage to the crystals below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wxeyeNH Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 minute ago, powderfreak said: Yes but why is that good for the pack, lol. It protects you maybe against future cutters? You are saying that melting it and refreezing it is good? Better than not having a cutter? PF. Don't misunderstand. I would take snow whether its wet or fluff upslope anytime over a cutter. The big takeaway for me is that cutters, in general, are usually not disastrous for me. Like Brian says we can sometimes get a 50F cutter but most of the time Concord NH gets in the warm air and then it it stalls, almost near Brian's and just never gets to me till after the fropa. I have about 14" of powdery pack right now. Never got to 32F yesterday. This pack will compact and if we did get some 40F days would melt very quickly. It seems with cutters if we do briefly get warm it does something to the snow crystals, makes them those granular ice pieces and then with a refreeze the pack is like cement for the rest of the winter. So does keeping a pack powder or briefly melting it and refreezing make it last longer in the long run. I think so but I'm not a scientist. Does any of this make sense or am I just losing everyone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, powderfreak said: Yeah that's why I find at the mountain...melt is almost entirely related to the liquid eqiv in the pack. 42" of fluff will take the same energy as 14" of cement if it's the same LE. I prefer to keep my snow as unmolested as possible for as long as possible. Even a quick cutter will start to break down the snow into granular stuff and the process has started for the next cutter. Decent amount of energy is spent in that initial change from flakes to granular...which is why the first cutter is often like "wow lot more snow left than I thought" but the later ones start to do the real damage. And when the water content gets much past 35%, all melt-resistance seems to flee. Of course, some of that is because packs that wet usually occur after the equinox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, CoastalWx said: Liquid over snow is not good. Period. I should not have to defend that. Like yesterday’s 37 degree rain deeply damaged ours. Sure it’s frozen now, but it’s damaged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 minute ago, tamarack said: And when the water content gets much past 35%, all melt-resistance seems to flee. Of course, some of that is because packs that wet usually occur after the equinox. Also two additional factors: 1. Packs with that much water in them have usually warmed substantially...so little additional energy is required to warm the pack to melting temps. 2. The ice crystals have probably been all damaged multiple times to the point of "ready to melt" status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 minute ago, wxeyeNH said: PF. Don't misunderstand. I would take snow whether its wet or fluff upslope anytime over a cutter. The big takeaway for me is that cutters, in general, are usually not disastrous for me. Like Brian says we can sometimes get a 50F cutter but most of the time Concord NH gets in the warm air and then it it stalls, almost near Brian's and just never gets to me till after the fropa. I have about 14" of powdery pack right now. Never got to 32F yesterday. This pack will compact and if we did get some 40F days would melt very quickly. It seems with cutters if we do briefly get warm it does something to the snow crystals, makes them those granular ice pieces and then with a refreeze the pack is like cement for the rest of the winter. So does keeping a pack powder or briefly melting it and refreezing make it last longer in the long run. I think so but I'm not a scientist. Does any of this make sense or am I just losing everyone?? No I get what you are saying, I don't think cutters are that disasterous here either and certainly not at the mountain except for surface conditions. Our benefit is we don't have the CAD you do but we have it to some degree East of the mountains, but we get the CAA first and it's often well into the 20s here before other areas on the end, so duration is limited. But when you compare storm powder in the long run to a brief melt and freeze, why not keep the storm powder as long as possible and then turn it to ice? I don't see why you'd want to turn it to ice as soon as possible. I think you want to delay the first cutter as long as possible because no matter what, each cutter is breaking down the pack in some way. Now front ender to cutter is a different ball game...can easily go to net gain with a few inches to absorb the rain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahk_webstah Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 10 minutes ago, CoastalWx said: Liquid over snow is not good. Period. I should not have to defend that. Et Tu, Brute? Change one "s" to an "e" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Meanwhile, the Grinch is back on 12z GFS...this is truly a "wait 6 hours" type pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said: Also two additional factors: 1. Packs with that much water in them have usually warmed substantially...so little additional energy is required to warm the pack to melting temps. 2. The ice crystals have probably been all damaged multiple times to the point of "ready to melt" status. Yup. I look at the process as fairly linear with certain steps along the thawing cycle and generally the longer you can delay that first step the better. The longer you can delay the second step the better haha. Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weathafella Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said: Meanwhile, the Grinch is back on 12z GFS...this is truly a "wait 6 hours" type pattern. But a Christmas Day blizzard is also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.