Events in New Maximum

[Paragon]

3 hours ago, Juliancolton said:

Yeah, that's always a fun region to photograph. The weather has been a little less than stellar (get it?) lately so I haven't done much deep sky imaging in a while. I'm sure it'll be night after night of clear, crisp skies once we get near full moon.

Haha yea, I'm hoping that we get much better skies in the Fall then we got in the Summer.  Fall seems to be the best time for imaging anyway, before the usual parade of storms begins (be they rain or snow.) October is usually peak time for astro-imaging (and other kinds of imaging too.)

 

[WidreMann]

20 hours ago, Paragon said:

You're right Joel, but expanding out into space may give us access to more resources and that would be important.  Also spreading out would avoid the pitfalls of a large population density (something we're already testing the limits of, with big city pollution and sustainability issues.)

I think we're going to need some massive technology improvements before this becomes achievable though- and involving nanotechnology and AI.  Our organic bodies have certain limits that space would definitely test the boundaries of, unless we're talking about large space colonies that simulate the characteristics of Earth.

 

 

Sure, we need to eventually go there, but as a means of absolute survival, it doesn't make sense.

[Paragon]

2 minutes ago, WidreMann said:

Sure, we need to eventually go there, but as a means of absolute survival, it doesn't make sense.

It definitely doesn't.  Because if we are that far gone, going to space won't help- going to space needs to be done from a position of strength, with the full technological capabilities to sustain ourselves, not as a last resort to survive.

[Paragon]

By the way, since we're talking about space- RIP Cassini, the probe served us well for 20 years.

I don't have any Cassini images to share (maybe someone else does), but here's something from SE.

Couldn't figure which exposure setting to use, so here they both are.

 

 

[Vice-Regent]

Why I believe the progressive social justice movements are more dangerous or as dangerous as nationalism/conservatism. Like Nazi Socialism, they don't take into account the logistical resources needed to accomplish goals. The end result is what you see, a lack of coherency and an irrational concept of progress, in addition to a sh**load of people demand a quality of living that is unattainable and draining down resources. I know the 1% love this kind of mantra, they will need to go away as well. The culture of expectations is killing the planet.

Unlike the 1940s, the whole world is the "bad guy". Which is why we probably won't get thru it and have capitalism and democracy on the other side. I don't advocate these systems, i'm just letting people know what they are comitting to by participating in industrial civilization.

[Vice-Regent]

Is protecting the environment incompatible with social justice?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2012/feb/13/protecting-environment-social-justice

[Vice-Regent]

What I don't understand is the lack of acknowledgement regarding living standards. Poor people in Africa and India will aspire towards first world living standards, they won't stop at some ideal interim between poverty and middle class where they no longer use biofuels but also don't commute and fly long distances. It goes againist the laws of capitalism to have that mentality, this is the kind of irrationalism i'm drawing attention towards.

However, the article is correct in that we must change the lifestyles of the affluent before we raise the world's poor out of poverty. In addition, we cannot raise up the poor using fossil fuels.

[Sophisticated Skeptic]

20 hours ago, Paragon said:

We all know there are downfalls to technology (as well as high population density- which IMO is the real problem and leads to all the other problems).  But technology is something we need and depend upon.  If I had children would I limit their access to social sites?  Sure- I've seen research that social networking can impact developing brains by affecting attention spans.  I'd also limit their access to fast food and soda for similar reasons.

 

 

they've done numerous studies , that the most common side-effect they've noticed from excessive Wifi / RF exposure is ADHD and sleeplessness .   People have developed sleep disorders more from year 2000+ than ever in the past.    Even though most people don't actually 'feel' anything...it causes our brains to be slightly more in an alert state...24 hours a day.   Than if no wifi / rf exposure.    The studies even showed that their ADHD , sleeplessness , panic / anxiety symptoms disappeared when all forms of Wifi / RF / GPS , etc were eliminated.  Good luck trying to find that anywhere in the U.S. though.   The studies were done in europe.

If Wifi can travel through houses, it can easily pass through our bodies and brains as well. RF is the harder one to eliminate, since most lights and household electrical devices emit them.

The reason it's almost impossible to confirm any of these 'wireless' transmissions cause any long term damage, because it's almost impossible to measure.  The only way to do the studies, were to eliminate them completely and put these people in a caveman'ish environment. 

the wireless emissions cause very low level inflammation of the brain...but just enough to affect critical thinking.  Yes, students these days are much worse at critical thinking than people in the past.  these constant,  minor inflammations cause people to be slightly more wired-up / adhd / various mental aspects / sleep problems , etc.   The human body naturally tries to fight this off though, so some people or people in less populated areas....less city....less wifi can handle it easier.   Notice how city people always seem a little more crazy..?

good documentary I recommend everybody checking out.  It's only an hour long, but worth it -

 

[Paragon]

4 hours ago, Vice-Regent said:

What I don't understand is the lack of acknowledgement regarding living standards. Poor people in Africa and India will aspire towards first world living standards, they won't stop at some ideal interim between poverty and middle class where they no longer use biofuels but also don't commute and fly long distances. It goes againist the laws of capitalism to have that mentality, this is the kind of irrationalism i'm drawing attention towards.

However, the article is correct in that we must change the lifestyles of the affluent before we raise the world's poor out of poverty. In addition, we cannot raise up the poor using fossil fuels.

Yes and I'm not fond of uncontrolled capitalism, where you have large corporations allowed to do as they please when it comes to the environment - that never leads to anything good.  You also have to find a way to control population growth across the board, it's very important for the limited resources and space on earth, as well as quality of life.  I've found some troubling stuff with regards to fossil fuel companies in the plains states and how they are trampling on the rights of native americans and environmentalists and the court system is allowing it.

 

[Paragon]

8 minutes ago, Sophisticated Skeptic said:

 

they've done numerous studies , that the most common side-effect they've noticed from excessive Wifi / RF exposure is ADHD and sleeplessness .   People have developed sleep disorders more from year 2000+ than ever in the past.    Even though most people don't actually 'feel' anything...it causes our brains to be slightly more in an alert state...24 hours a day.   Than if no wifi / rf exposure.    The studies even showed that their ADHD , sleeplessness , panic / anxiety symptoms disappeared when all forms of Wifi / RF / GPS , etc were eliminated.  Good luck trying to find that anywhere in the U.S. though.   The studies were done in europe.

If Wifi can travel through houses, it can easily pass through our bodies and brains as well. RF is the harder one to eliminate, since most lights and household electrical devices emit them.

The reason it's almost impossible to confirm any of these 'wireless' transmissions cause any long term damage, because it's almost impossible to measure.  The only way to do the studies, were to eliminate them completely and put these people in a caveman'ish environment. 

the wireless emissions cause very low level inflammation of the brain...but just enough to affect critical thinking.  Yes, students these days are much worse at critical thinking than people in the past.  these constant,  minor inflammations cause people to be slightly more wired-up / adhd / various mental aspects / sleep problems , etc.   The human body naturally tries to fight this off though, so some people or people in less populated areas....less city....less wifi can handle it easier.   Notice how city people always seem a little more crazy..?

good documentary I recommend everybody checking out.  It's only an hour long, but worth it -

 

I thought the pill-popping generation, which includes depression, anxiety and sleeping pills was due to a high population density (too many lights, consuming too much coffee, high stress levels, etc.)  What you said could be there too, but from my own experience from having two homes, one near NYC and the other in the Poconos, I've always slept much better when I'm in the Poconos.

[Paragon]

4 hours ago, Vice-Regent said:

Is protecting the environment incompatible with social justice?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2012/feb/13/protecting-environment-social-justice

it's highly important, if you want humanity to be sustainable.  Humanity is part of the environment, so if you hurt the environment, it will also hurt humanity... much has changed since that article was written in 2012.  People understand a little better now than they did back then.

Now we know that using chemical fertilizers and pesticides is actually bad for the soil and sustainable organic farming is much better for nutrient retention- we learned that lesson the hard way over a matter of decades.

[Vice-Regent]

5 minutes ago, Paragon said:

I thought the pill-popping generation, which includes depression, anxiety and sleeping pills was due to a high population density (too many lights, consuming too much coffee, high stress levels, etc.)  What you said could be there too, but from my own experience from having two homes, one near NYC and the other in the Poconos, I've always slept much better when I'm in the Poconos.

Another contradiction would be the idea that cities are somehow more sustainable and the path forward versus rural living. So-called mega cities that run on green technology and public transportation. It just seems like the right and left are scamming people to foster their particular vision for the future. Felt that way for a long time, maybe even since 2009.

But really, what the individual needs is nothing complex. The lack of respect for the individual is the cause of all our problems. Such phrases as "consumer" or "voter" are degrading terms for the individual.

[Paragon]

Just now, Vice-Regent said:

Another contradiction would be the idea that cities are somehow more sustainable and the path forward versus rural living. So-called mega cities that run on green technology and public transportation. It just seems like the right and left are scamming people to foster their particular vision for the future. Felt that way for a long time, maybe even since 2009.

But really, what the individual needs is nothing complex. The lack of respect for the individual is the cause of all our problems. Such phrases as "consumer" or "voter" are degrading terms for the individual.

If mega cities means increasing the population density even more- no thank you.  I can only tell you from my own experiences how much preferable it is living in a natural environment where your circadian rhythms aren't out of whack because of how many lights there are at night.

There's actually numerous studies that show that light pollution leads to higher frequencies of certain cancers like prostate and breast cancer, because the pineal gland secrets melatonin at night (which regulates other glands); with too much light pollution, it confuses the gland and the process does not occur.

 

[Vice-Regent]

2 minutes ago, Paragon said:

If mega cities means increasing the population density even more- no thank you.  I can only tell you from my own experiences how much preferable it is living in a natural environment where your circadian rhythms aren't out of whack because of how many lights there are at night.

There's actually numerous studies that show that light pollution leads to higher frequencies of certain cancers like prostate and breast cancer, because the pineal gland secrets melatonin at night (which regulates other glands); with too much light pollution, it confuses the gland and the process does not occur.

 

So true, it's best not to fight biology unless you want a one-way trip to extinction for your genetic line and also your species.

[Paragon]

11 minutes ago, Vice-Regent said:

So true, it's best not to fight biology unless you want a one-way trip to extinction for your genetic line and also your species.

This is also something we are finding out with the overusage of chemical fertilizers and pesticides which in the long-run lead to more nutrient depletion of the soil, better to work with nature and perhaps even mimic it, rather than fight it- which will always result in us losing in the end.

The article you posted is an excellent one, I also liked the following which were linked to in it.  And the comments are also a worthwhile read.

http://policy-practice.oxfam.org.uk/publications/a-safe-and-just-space-for-humanity-can-we-live-within-the-doughnut-210490

Sarah-Jane Sherwood • 4 years ago
I'd be interested how things have changed two years on and if this paper helped to shape the discussions at Rio+20. I really liked Table 3. Breaching planetary boundaries: human causes and impacts. I would love to develop it further in terms of real life examples of ecosystems declining etc.
 
•Share ›
Avatar
Kate Raworth • 6 years ago
Malcolm, thanks for your great comments. I agree the picture of the state we have created for ourselves and the planet is an unnerving one. I hope that by making it starkly clear, we can at least get more attention for the need to address it.

You put your finger on the critical issue in my mind: the nation state system with the presumption of national sovereignty over resources, which ignores that these political patches of land add up to a whole which is the biophysical reality of the planet, and that the way Earth-systems function bears no relation to the way people have created nations. Establishing international fair shares of resource use is, I think, the biggest but most pressing issue of international governance that we face.

On the doughnut: do you mean you don't like the association of sugary snacks or you don't like the shape per se?

If it's the association, you could just think of it in a more dignified way as planetary and social boundaries, or a safe and just space for humanity. I tried different names (a life belt or a ring) but people didn't understand and the doughnut sort of - stuck. And others said, heck, these issues are so challenging, we need a bit of humour.

If it's the shape you don't like, apologies for the upside down reading: it's drawn as a circle, rather than two parallel lines, because I think it is important, visually, to see the planet's resources as a bounded space (and having a circle that resembles the planet's shape helps too). 
1  
•Share ›
Avatar
Malcolm Whitmore • 6 years ago
The paper makes a cohesive summary of the perilous state we are in but leaves me with an empty feeling about the future we are leaving to the planet.As economic progress brings our intermingled lives come closer to each other, the future prospect for us becomes a scene from hell. There is no political party in power that is seriously engaged in a policy to resolve the social and environmental issues that you identify. The nation state system we have for the planet sets up the problem by dividing the planet into nations as silos to be defended to Armageddon. This crazy system has to be radically changed before any real attention will be paid to social and environmental issues .
. The task of making this change is fpivotal and requires a fundamental change to the concept of democracy before there is any hop e of success. Your paper underlines the need for social and environmental change,the necessary mechanism for that to be accomplished is an even bigger challenge to be met. 
On a more mundane note,I think that you are limiting the scope of the vision of our predicament by using a doughnut. THe details of how we perceive,examine and establish solutions will be much better corelated if they can be related to the basic vision statement. Also a linear representation of by two lines is a more practical way of representing the social target and the planetary limit and does not require skills in reading upside down text.

http://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/researchnews/tippingtowardstheunknown/thenineplanetaryboundaries.4.1fe8f33123572b59ab80007039.html

[Sophisticated Skeptic]

1 hour ago, Paragon said:

I thought the pill-popping generation, which includes depression, anxiety and sleeping pills was due to a high population density (too many lights, consuming too much coffee, high stress levels, etc.)  What you said could be there too, but from my own experience from having two homes, one near NYC and the other in the Poconos, I've always slept much better when I'm in the Poconos.

the high stress environment in big cities is a trigger as well, you're right there.  The increased noise 24/7 ,  increased stress and stressed-out people (just from seeing them)  , increased traffic , increased environmental pollution , but also increased wireless pollution as well.   Many reasons why city life is bad, did I forget to mention increased cancer rates as well ?

Doctors in the City will make it seem like it's normal to hand out meds to combat the extra stress...but it's only damaging the body even more.  Heck , now their prescribing meds for side-effects your having to other prescription meds.   The medical industry is out of control.   I saw a commercial the other day for taking another med, just for people having constipation to opiates.  are u kidding me?  when was this new medical disorder discovered...?  yesterday.   If your on opiates in the first place, you shouldnt be taking them...and no more constipation.   but no problem if you are, medical industry has more meds for you..

I've done the same like you regarding sleep , and have also noticed the same.   It's good that you can adapt to both as well.   Many people cannot, they move out here...but then realize they miss all the craziness and crazy stressed out people of city life...so they move back to the city.     This is one big aspect people need to mentally prepare for if they decide to move to a more rural area.  It took me a couple years as well, to get used to all the calm.   But once you accept it and realize it's benefits, you'll only wanna visit back to city life occasionally. 

[Paragon]

3 minutes ago, Sophisticated Skeptic said:

the high stress environment in big cities is a trigger as well, you're right there.  The increased noise 24/7 ,  increased stress and stressed-out people (just from seeing them)  , increased traffic , increased environmental pollution , but also increased wireless pollution as well.   Many reasons why city life is bad, did I forget to mention increased cancer rates as well ?

Doctors in the City will make it seem like it's normal to hand out meds to combat the extra stress...but it's only damaging the body even more.  Heck , now their prescribing meds for side-effects your having to other prescription meds.   The medical industry is out of control.   I saw a commercial the other day for taking another med, just for people having constipation to opiates.  are u kidding me?  when was this new medical disorder discovered...?  yesterday.   If your on opiates in the first place, you shouldnt be taking them...and no more constipation.   but no problem if you are, medical industry has more meds for you..

I've done the same like you regarding sleep , and have also noticed the same.   It's good that you can adapt to both as well.   Many people cannot, they move out here...but then realize they miss all the craziness and crazy stressed out people of city life...so they move back to the city.     This is one big aspect people need to mentally prepare for if they decide to move to a more rural area.  It took me a couple years as well, to get used to all the calm.   But once you accept it and realize it's benefits, you'll only wanna visit back to city life occasionally. 

Yes the pharma industry, just like the fossil fuel industry, is completely out of control.  Can say the same about the chemical industry (which is rooted in the pharma industry.)  I find the ads so obnoxious I try not to watch those channels at all.  It's because of the pharma industry that health care is so out of control.

[AfewUniversesBelowNormal]

I think we have greater chances for Winter '93 type storm, but something like 70s/80s DC south with tornadoes and storms, blizzard in the Upper Midwest and Great Lakes... that's the pattern I feel is these times. warm, moist, intense. 

[Vice-Regent]

[Sophisticated Skeptic]

It's funny how time changes things.

2 years ago I was certain climate change was occurring.

now, i'm nearly certain Geo-engineering is occurring and being kept 'low-key'.   too much evidence, and the gov has already admitted cloud seeding is real.

whether it's being done deliberate or unknowingly.   Just the amount of water vapor power plants feed into the atmosphere on a daily basis is astonishing....and never talked about.

Our atmosphere is permanently messed up, ty humans.   time to find another planet to screw up.  money and power is turning the planet into a cesspool.

oh btw, Houston is the only democratic county in Texas if people didn't know.    All these billions of dollars in aid, (paid by taxpayers) help the local area's 'rebuilding' economy.  Including Home Depot, Lowes, etc.    When Home Depot hears the word hurricane strike, their eyes light up. 

 

 

[WidreMann]

2 hours ago, Sophisticated Skeptic said:

It's funny how time changes things.

2 years ago I was certain climate change was occurring.

now, i'm nearly certain Geo-engineering is occurring and being kept 'low-key'.   too much evidence, and the gov has already admitted cloud seeding is real.

whether it's being done deliberate or unknowingly.   Just the amount of water vapor power plants feed into the atmosphere on a daily basis is astonishing....and never talked about.

Our atmosphere is permanently messed up, ty humans.   time to find another planet to screw up.  money and power is turning the planet into a cesspool.

oh btw, Houston is the only democratic county in Texas if people didn't know.    All these billions of dollars in aid, (paid by taxpayers) help the local area's 'rebuilding' economy.  Including Home Depot, Lowes, etc.    When Home Depot hears the word hurricane strike, their eyes light up. 

 

 

Water cycles much much quicker through the system than CO2, so any human sources of water vapour will be limited, temporally and spatially. Not to say they don't have an effect, but it's immaterial from the POV of climate change.

[Vice-Regent]

The solution is simply to lower CO2e concentrations. Yet it would kill civilization so it won't happen. Like I was saying, it doesn't matter as civilization may collapse on it's own accord. No excuse for inaction just a time to be extra cautious. I certainly wouldn't be having kids or investing in a long-term career.

[WidreMann]

9 hours ago, Vice-Regent said:

The solution is simply to lower CO2e concentrations. Yet it would kill civilization so it won't happen. Like I was saying, it doesn't matter as civilization may collapse on it's own accord. No excuse for inaction just a time to be extra cautious. I certainly wouldn't be having kids or investing in a long-term career.

Would it kill civilization? We had a lot of civilization before we were outputting CO2. We now have more green energy options than ever before. Imagine if we had spent the trillion plus from the Iraq war on improving energy efficiency and carbon footprint. We could and still can do it, but we choose not to. Heck, we once decided to put a man on the moon and we ****ing did it. Back when our country had resolve and people gave a ****.

[Vice-Regent]

Not a big fan of using biofuels so yes it should and would kill civilization in it's current form. People could live locally but there would be no global trade.

[WidreMann]

19 hours ago, Vice-Regent said:

Not a big fan of using biofuels so yes it should and would kill civilization in it's current form. People could live locally but there would be no global trade.

We need energy, but we don't need fossil fuels. I'm not sure why you are convinced that fossil fuels are the only reason we can have modern civilization. A concerted effort to replace, over a long period of time, would be satisfactory, though not great, on both these counts: reducing or eliminating our impact on the climate and maintaining modern human civilization. But the longer we go, the harder it gets.

[Vice-Regent]

1 hour ago, WidreMann said:

We need energy, but we don't need fossil fuels. I'm not sure why you are convinced that fossil fuels are the only reason we can have modern civilization. A concerted effort to replace, over a long period of time, would be satisfactory, though not great, on both these counts: reducing or eliminating our impact on the climate and maintaining modern human civilization. But the longer we go, the harder it gets.

The window for that closed on us I would say 1970-1980. There is great inertia built into civilization, even more so with capitalism at the helm.

[Vice-Regent]

Another point is that it's getting more uneconomical to extract oil from conventional and unconventional sources. Yet you need a stable ROI in order to replace the fossil fuel infastructure with green energy on a timescale that matters. Hopefully our descendents will learn from our mistakes.

[WidreMann]

I think there's a difference between, say, a major depression happening with geopolitical realignment, and civilization ending and climate change reaching the higher end estimates. You are right that we passed the point of easy change decades ago (though it would have still been hard then too). I don't think it's a binary situation though. However, we, as a civilization, have to start making some hard choices.

[Vice-Regent]

2 minutes ago, WidreMann said:

I think there's a difference between, say, a major depression happening with geopolitical realignment, and civilization ending and climate change reaching the higher end estimates. You are right that we passed the point of easy change decades ago (though it would have still been hard then too). I don't think it's a binary situation though. However, we, as a civilization, have to start making some hard choices.

For me, they are easy choices. Only the forces of capitalism and the consumption of other people get in your way, such as capitalism and the mass extraction of every land region/bioregion. It's not easy to build green municipalities and settlements in 2017 much less acquire unused land in significant quantities. This will require as you mention, a geopolitical realignment so that people can get to work building sustainability at a local level rather than debt slaving and waiting for entitlements, and unfortunately there are many who want the government to hold their hand 24/7 and believe they should be treated like royalty (Snowflake perjorative) for just existing.

I believe in valuing human social justice but some level headedness would go a long ways. Self-sufficiency and not communism is the only path forward, but a self-sufficiency based on environmentalism. We need people to care about nature on a deep level, without that we are doomed.

[Sophisticated Skeptic]

another hurricane for Florida area incoming.

Interesting.