NNE Spring Thread

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, adk said:

By Sat. AM we're going to be down to the real glacial stuff. 

Be interested to see what you find then....nothing below 2500 save for trails?

 

I think we are there...or at least have been.  For the past week or two its all just been essentially one block of ice/snow that you just shave off a little at a time.

We call it grayscale...its everywhere.  Even the snowmaking trails, that grayscale base is like 3-5 feet deep in some areas. 

Crazy how Spruce is like bare to 3,000ft because it faces south, while northeast aspect on Mansfield (FourRunner Quad) you can still ski the glades if you want to and there's close to continuous snow coverage down to Crossover and patchy below that.

[wxeyeNH]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

I think we are there...or at least have been.  For the past week or two its all just been essentially one block of ice/snow that you just shave off a little at a time.

We call it grayscale...its everywhere.  Even the snowmaking trails, that grayscale base is like 3-5 feet deep in some areas. 

Crazy how Spruce is like bare to 3,000ft because it faces south, while northeast aspect on Mansfield (FourRunner Quad) you can still ski the glades if you want to and there's close to continuous snow coverage down to Crossover and patchy below that.

PF,  I really noticed this effect when I was out in the Sierra Nevada in late spring.  They are at a lower latitude and the sun bakes the southwest exposures.  Many places were bare but the north faces had many, many feet of snow left.  Probably the difference is minimal when the sun is low but the difference increases more and more the deeper we get into high angle  sun season.  

[LongBeachSurfFreak]

1 hour ago, wxeyeNH said:

PF,  I really noticed this effect when I was out in the Sierra Nevada in late spring.  They are at a lower latitude and the sun bakes the southwest exposures.  Many places were bare but the north faces had many, many feet of snow left.  Probably the difference is minimal when the sun is low but the difference increases more and more the deeper we get into high angle  sun season.  

I'll never forget being out in the sierras as a kid this time of year. Actually later. But shorts and tank top with 20 feet of snow above 10k. Tree wells the size of houses in the bristle cone pines. What an amazing place 

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, wxeyeNH said:

PF,  I really noticed this effect when I was out in the Sierra Nevada in late spring.  They are at a lower latitude and the sun bakes the southwest exposures.  Many places were bare but the north faces had many, many feet of snow left.  Probably the difference is minimal when the sun is low but the difference increases more and more the deeper we get into high angle  sun season.  

Ha yeah a little different scale out there compared to here.  Maybe up to 5 feet of difference at high elevation from north facing to south facing this time of year but not the 20 feet difference the Sierra sees.

I find the very small scale stuff fascinating with snow melt patterns.  Such that the woods around my 1,550ft snow plot are still snow covered today but it isn't consistent, and even snow cover.

These were this afternoon...and what's fascinating to me is the flat ground is still snow covered but as soon as the terrain becomes pitched at all, the snow is long gone.  Even flat ground at 1,550ft has better snow retention than even up to 2,500ft of south facing slope based on what I've seen.

On the level flat ground in the woods of the Barnes Camp Plot site, there is still up to 12" of snow depth but it basically varies from 0-12".  Now, as soon as the terrain takes on even the most subtle slope towards the south the snow is gone and it is gone to a high elevation before returning.

 

Here's the topo map showing the location of the Barnes Camp plot in the base area...looking east at the west/south facing slope.  You can see the stream there in the bottom image as the delineator between snow and no snow because the terrain does subtly start rising on the other side of the stream. 

 

To me its crazy how flat level ground will hold snow longer than even 1,000ft higher up in elevation but with a south/west aspect.  You know aspect really matters but its crazy how even the slightest pitch is the difference between up to a foot on the ground and absolutely nothing. 

[wxeyeNH]

Cool info PF.   Changing the subject a bit.....   We had the NW flow this morning and now the winds have shifted east in advance of the next system.  I was curious what the clouds would look like if I made a time lapse from earlier this afternoon till about 730pm this evening.  So much going on that you would never notice with the naked eye.  Really interesting to see the clouds change direction.  Can even see the shadows as the cirrus clouds come in from the west.  Note how the terrain induces the wave cloud patterns.  So much to see.  The lay person would have no idea what is going on but we weather freaks do!...got to move the camera view a bit more skyward....

https://video.nest.com/clip/e44923fdc9e94e69a90737c318f6601b.mp4

 

 

[eyewall]

Amazing day out there today! 

[uncletim]

On 4/20/2017 at 7:16 PM, powderfreak said:

Ha yeah a little different scale out there compared to here.  Maybe up to 5 feet of difference at high elevation from north facing to south facing this time of year but not the 20 feet difference the Sierra sees.

I find the very small scale stuff fascinating with snow melt patterns.  Such that the woods around my 1,550ft snow plot are still snow covered today but it isn't consistent, and even snow cover.

These were this afternoon...and what's fascinating to me is the flat ground is still snow covered but as soon as the terrain becomes pitched at all, the snow is long gone.  Even flat ground at 1,550ft has better snow retention than even up to 2,500ft of south facing slope based on what I've seen.

On the level flat ground in the woods of the Barnes Camp Plot site, there is still up to 12" of snow depth but it basically varies from 0-12".  Now, as soon as the terrain takes on even the most subtle slope towards the south the snow is gone and it is gone to a high elevation before returning.

 

Here's the topo map showing the location of the Barnes Camp plot in the base area...looking east at the west/south facing slope.  You can see the stream there in the bottom image as the delineator between snow and no snow because the terrain does subtly start rising on the other side of the stream. 

 

To me its crazy how flat level ground will hold snow longer than even 1,000ft higher up in elevation but with a south/west aspect.  You know aspect really matters but its crazy how even the slightest pitch is the difference between up to a foot on the ground and absolutely nothing. 

I've seen a great example of this along the Arethusa Falls trail in the Whites. Stream ravine runs almost due east-west with the trail slabbing the north side of the ravine until just before the falls. There was one winter back in the 90s when March was very snowy and then the switch flipped in April to sunny, very warm and dry. We hiked to the falls in early May on a hot (mid-80s!) day with trees just starting to leaf out, and the trail was actually dusty for most of the way, but as soon as it crossed to the south side of the stream, we were walking through about a 2 foot snow pack - fortunately earlier hikers had compacted a path to the falls. Just a few days earlier we might not have made it. I've always remembered it because the hike had a very "western" feel to it as Wxeye describes.

[powderfreak]

Closing day was yesterday and today was clean up day.  Fun day of skiing around picking up markings from Ski Patrol (bamboo) and ropes and all sorts of stuff that gets stored for the summer.

Definitely like the Yellowstone Club having the FourRunner Quad run for just you and like 5 other people.

This morning we had some sweet undercast and overcast, ha.  A cloud sandwich.

 

Then by late morning the low clouds had all burned off and the mid-level deck had moved away...turned into a beautiful day.

 

[dendrite]

How much snow blows down into that valley? You can see the north-south effects on my hill too. I'm on the north side and it takes awhile to rot it away. I'm usually about a week later compared to south facing slopes. A slope closer to parallel to the angle of insolation doesn't absorb much radiation. Turn that slope perpendicular and it's torch city.

[eyewall]

A nice evening on the lake but kind of cool compared to inland due to the cold waters:

[eyewall]

Bolton Valley this evening:

[MarkO]

Difference between Lowell and Thornton. Thornton photo was taken Saturday, Lowell yesterday. The only color in Thornton is the bark mulch. :/

[dendrite]

No leaves really yet here either although the typical early ones are breaking bud. 

[tamarack]

11 hours ago, dendrite said:

No leaves really yet here either although the typical early ones are breaking bud. 

Some green on the willows, aspens should have some by the weekend, red maples in full flower.  Others have just bud swelling, except for the ash, which still looks like it's midwinter.  Three separate groups of turkeys in the field north of the house this morning - 4 or 5 gobblers in full strut, probably over 30 hens watching.

[J.Spin]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:38 PM, powderfreak said:

One more day left at Stowe for lift serviced...but we'll probably be able to skin it into mid-May depending on the weather pattern.

Here's a shot from today on Goat...all natural snow and still filled in fat.  Woods on either side were nice too.

 

That’s a great shot to see at the end of April.  I was in Lake Placid over the weekend, so I went for a ski at Whiteface for the first time in over 20 years, and I’ve got to tell you, when it comes to snowfall (and I guess even snowpack?) we are definitely lucky to be in the Northern Greens vs. just across the lake.  I know we’ve had discussions before about the somewhat sparse reporting and potential underreporting of snowfall in the Adirondacks, and how the extra 100 to 200 inches of snow in the Northern Greens vs. other parts of the Northeast is mostly “fluff”, but based on what I saw over the weekend, the snow difference between the ‘dacks and here was much more dramatic than I would have expected.

 

This season Whiteface had what their website reported as a record 281 inches of snowfall, but there’s no way they could have been open this weekend based on what I saw there:

 

 

Of course manmade snow depths can’t really be compared between locations because they’re mostly a function of how much snow is blown, but you know they had to plan on certain depths, and some margin of extra depth, to offer skiing until their anticipated closing (they closed last weekend, so I’m guessing that was their plan).  There’s nothing close to continuous snow cover on the lower half of the mountain – the best option I found was to piece together the remnants of one of the terrain parks.  The amount of remaining manmade snow may speak a bit to retention issues, but the state of the natural snow was what really had me flummoxed.  The peak of Whiteface is up near 5,000’, but even from afar one can get a sense for how little natural snow remains up there – certainly relative to the six feet at the Mt. Mansfield Stake below 4,000’.

 

I get it that Whiteface is about an extra 50 miles or so away from coastal moisture and the associated coastal storms, but they should probably make up some of that with their better proximity to moisture from the Great Lakes.  I was initially quite surprised when the Whiteface website mentioned that 281 inches of snowfall this season as a record, but when I checked Tony Crocker’s website and saw their annual average snowfall only coming in around 180 inches, it seemed to make a bit more sense.  That average still amazes me though, as at that point you’re getting down near half of what some of the resorts in the Northern Greens are reporting.  It’s a shame, because man what an impressive mountain Whiteface is with respect to pitch and vertical.

 

Anyway, since I just had a chance to check out the snow at Whiteface first hand, and we’ve got plenty of recent Mansfield pictures from Powderfreak, I figured the folks in the forum would find the comparison interesting.  I was certainly surprised at the difference in the available snow.  In the comments on my report from the outing, one person did point out that the ski terrain at Whiteface is more southerly than northerly facing, although I’d still argue that the predominant aspect of the trails is east.  In any event, even taking in some of the more northerly-facing views around Lake Placid, I still wasn’t blown away by the snowpack:

 

 

The views all around the Lake Placid area are stunning of course, but with such high peaks after a pretty decent winter for snowfall, I was expecting to see more snow up there since it’s still only April.  I’m sure others in the forum might be surprised as well.  I’ve also got some additional images in my report of the trip for those that are interested in Whiteface and the Lake Placid area.

[Tom12309]

Whiteface gets more of its snow from clippers than coastals.  I suspect they blow a lot less snow than other places, being more state funded if I understand their setup correctly.  I skied and rode there for years, it certainly seemed to me that they were more dependent on natural snow than other places I'd been in southern and central Vermont.   Other than out west, Whiteface is still my favorite place to go.  It never seems to be that terribly crowded and it is just as difficult as you ever want.  Not to mention trying to rail GS turns from the top all the way to the bottom in one go.  

[wxeyeNH]

.25" from first batch of rain this AM.  Seems like I got more than most places in the state at least from my area south.

Wow,  MarkO so green down in Mass.  When I watch the news and they show Wash DC it looks like mid summer dark green down there.  Up in my hood most forsythia are now just about  opened but everything else right on the edge.  For me the first forsythia begins true spring.  Next up is those Norway maples with the big green blobs.  Then within a couple of days everything just explodes with any hint of warm weather...

Eyewall.  Quit your day job.  Trade in your P3 for a P4 Pro and spend your days taking drone  pictures of NNE.  Publish a book.  Your photos are that good...

 

 

[eyewall]

9 minutes ago, wxeyeNH said:

.25" from first batch of rain this AM.  Seems like I got more than most places in the state at least from my area south.

Wow,  MarkO so green down in Mass.  When I watch the news and they show Wash DC it looks like mid summer dark green down there.  Up in my hood most forsythia are now just about  opened but everything else right on the edge.  For me the first forsythia begins true spring.  Next up is those Norway maples with the big green blobs.  Then within a couple of days everything just explodes with any hint of warm weather...

Eyewall.  Quit your day job.  Trade in your P3 for a P4 Pro and spend your days taking drone  pictures of NNE.  Publish a book.  Your photos are that good...

 

 
 

 

Thank you and I just may upgrade soon enough. I just have to wait and see if the phantom 5 is coming soon. I wish I could afford the inspire. As for the book, that is a great idea. I just have to get the part 107 license from the FAA.


 

 

[qg_omega]

2 hours ago, J.Spin said:

 

That’s a great shot to see at the end of April.  I was in Lake Placid over the weekend, so I went for a ski at Whiteface for the first time in over 20 years, and I’ve got to tell you, when it comes to snowfall (and I guess even snowpack?) we are definitely lucky to be in the Northern Greens vs. just across the lake.  I know we’ve had discussions before about the somewhat sparse reporting and potential underreporting of snowfall in the Adirondacks, and how the extra 100 to 200 inches of snow in the Northern Greens vs. other parts of the Northeast is mostly “fluff”, but based on what I saw over the weekend, the snow difference between the ‘dacks and here was much more dramatic than I would have expected.

 

This season Whiteface had what their website reported as a record 281 inches of snowfall, but there’s no way they could have been open this weekend based on what I saw there:

 

 

Of course manmade snow depths can’t really be compared between locations because they’re mostly a function of how much snow is blown, but you know they had to plan on certain depths, and some margin of extra depth, to offer skiing until their anticipated closing (they closed last weekend, so I’m guessing that was their plan).  There’s nothing close to continuous snow cover on the lower half of the mountain – the best option I found was to piece together the remnants of one of the terrain parks.  The amount of remaining manmade snow may speak a bit to retention issues, but the state of the natural snow was what really had me flummoxed.  The peak of Whiteface is up near 5,000’, but even from afar one can get a sense for how little natural snow remains up there – certainly relative to the six feet at the Mt. Mansfield Stake below 4,000’.

 

I get it that Whiteface is about an extra 50 miles or so away from coastal moisture and the associated coastal storms, but they should probably make up some of that with their better proximity to moisture from the Great Lakes.  I was initially quite surprised when the Whiteface website mentioned that 281 inches of snowfall this season as a record, but when I checked Tony Crocker’s website and saw their annual average snowfall only coming in around 180 inches, it seemed to make a bit more sense.  That average still amazes me though, as at that point you’re getting down near half of what some of the resorts in the Northern Greens are reporting.  It’s a shame, because man what an impressive mountain Whiteface is with respect to pitch and vertical.

 

Anyway, since I just had a chance to check out the snow at Whiteface first hand, and we’ve got plenty of recent Mansfield pictures from Powderfreak, I figured the folks in the forum would find the comparison interesting.  I was certainly surprised at the difference in the available snow.  In the comments on my report from the outing, one person did point out that the ski terrain at Whiteface is more southerly than northerly facing, although I’d still argue that the predominant aspect of the trails is east.  In any event, even taking in some of the more northerly-facing views around Lake Placid, I still wasn’t blown away by the snowpack:

 

 

The views all around the Lake Placid area are stunning of course, but with such high peaks after a pretty decent winter for snowfall, I was expecting to see more snow up there since it’s still only April.  I’m sure others in the forum might be surprised as well.  I’ve also got some additional images in my report of the trip for those that are interested in Whiteface and the Lake Placid area.

was the highway open yet?  Could have been a cool drive up

[ORH_wxman]

3 hours ago, Tom12309 said:

Whiteface gets more of its snow from clippers than coastals.  I suspect they blow a lot less snow than other places, being more state funded if I understand their setup correctly.  I skied and rode there for years, it certainly seemed to me that they were more dependent on natural snow than other places I'd been in southern and central Vermont.   Other than out west, Whiteface is still my favorite place to go.  It never seems to be that terribly crowded and it is just as difficult as you ever want.  Not to mention trying to rail GS turns from the top all the way to the bottom in one go.  

They are also not in a very great place for retention relative to places further east. Obviously overall they are fine, but compared to east slopes of Greens and then over to the CAD kingdom of E NH and Maine, they are pretty lousy for retention. It was probably exacerbated more this year with some of the storms that hit further east (though they did get hit hard in the mid-March storm)

 

You can see it on the snow pack map from NOHRSC for this weekend when jspin went to Whiteface....Jay Peak and Mansfield are visible on the snow cover....pretty much nothing in the Adirondacks, and then still quite a bit in the Whites and Maine mountains.

 

 

[CoastalWx]

16 hours ago, MarkO said:

Difference between Lowell and Thornton. Thornton photo was taken Saturday, Lowell yesterday. The only color in Thornton is the bark mulch. :/

Different species of trees too. Norwegian maples (the scourge of SNE) are the first ones always. The hardwood maples and oaks still only have buds.

[tamarack]

6 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

They are also not in a very great place for retention relative to places further east. Obviously overall they are fine, but compared to east slopes of Greens and then over to the CAD kingdom of E NH and Maine, they are pretty lousy for retention. It was probably exacerbated more this year with some of the storms that hit further east (though they did get hit hard in the mid-March storm)

 

You can see it on the snow pack map from NOHRSC for this weekend when jspin went to Whiteface....Jay Peak and Mansfield are visible on the snow cover....pretty much nothing in the Adirondacks, and then still quite a bit in the Whites and Maine mountains.

 

 

With that much remaining in the upper watersheds of the Androscoggin and Kennebec, could get interesting if tonight/tomorrow bring more than an inch or so.

[powderfreak]

20 hours ago, eyewall said:

Bolton Valley this evening:

 

Wow... I know Bolton doesn't make as much snow as Stowe but that's a lot less cover than I thought they'd have.

Mansfield is still carte blanche with even quite a bit of tree-skiing available above mid-mountain. 

Here was Stowe today from a skin up Sensation Quad....around noon right before the light rain moved in.

 

Stowe/Mansfield does have some of the best snow retention in the state though, IMO.  When you couple in the fact it gets some of the most snowfall of anywhere in New England aside from Jay, faces East to Northeast (only gets direct sunlight in the morning during lowest diurnal temps) and the steepness casts some long shadows in the afternoon once the sun goes west of the Spine crest.   You also have the strong southerly flow the channels up the Champlain Valley and can impact the western slopes with warmth while east of the Spine the Stowe side can radiate and is largely separated from the warm southerly flows that come up the valley.

The liquid amounts I found this spring of up to 30" of water in the snowpack is testament to how much precipitation falls up there in a great winter like this one.  It also takes a lot of energy to get that much frozen water to release.

I'd be curious to see what the west side looks like, as it historically can be bare of snow straight to the summit ridge, while the East side in Stowe can have at least patchy snow cover down to 1,500-2,000ft.  What's even crazier is I've heard that the west side of RT 108 in Smugglers Notch is bare pavement almost to the top at 2,200ft while there's still snow and ice cover seen on the Road from the Stowe closure gate just uphill of 1,500ft.

[MarkO]

4 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

Different species of trees too. Norwegian maples (the scourge of SNE) are the first ones always. The hardwood maples and oaks still only have buds.

The silver maples flower here before the Norway's (they actually started flowering here in late February), then many of the flowers froze and died. Not sure what kind of effect that will have on the trees, but they're just starting to flower up north. Norway Maple an invasive species in MA. I can see why in the above photo.

[CoastalWx]

30 minutes ago, MarkO said:

The silver maples flower here before the Norway's (they actually started flowering here in late February), then many of the flowers froze and died. Not sure what kind of effect that will have on the trees, but they're just starting to flower up north. Norway Maple an invasive species in MA. I can see why in the above photo.

I can't stand those trees. They have zero character, ugly as hell, and are basically a weed IMO. 

[adk]

As to Whiteface- they built that ski area in just about the least snowy aspect in the ADK. First, the base is pretty low - like 900ft. Second the whole mtn faces southeast. Third, it's towards the eastern side of the high peaks so westward moving weather is blocked by the rest of the ADK. 

That said, during the shoulder seasons when big marginal events roll in it get crushed. It's got 1000ft of skiable terrain above the top of the Stowe quad. There are many storms in October and May that leave feet of snow there between 3k and 4k.  It just doesn't last into spring. 

 

[qg_omega]

1 hour ago, adk said:

As to Whiteface- they built that ski area in just about the least snowy aspect in the ADK. First, the base is pretty low - like 900ft. Second the whole mtn faces southeast. Third, it's towards the eastern side of the high peaks so westward moving weather is blocked by the rest of the ADK. 

That said, during the shoulder seasons when big marginal events roll in it get crushed. It's got 1000ft of skiable terrain above the top of the Stowe quad. There are many storms in October and May that leave feet of snow there between 3k and 4k.  It just doesn't last into spring. 

 

If the mountain was on the NW side of the town of lake placid....

[tamarack]

14 hours ago, MarkO said:

The silver maples flower here before the Norway's (they actually started flowering here in late February), then many of the flowers froze and died. Not sure what kind of effect that will have on the trees, but they're just starting to flower up north. Norway Maple an invasive species in MA. I can see why in the above photo.

Its worst invasive threat is that it produces abundant seed essentially every year, its seeds germinate before those of sugar maple, and its seedlings/saplings are equally as shade tolerant.  Thus it can colonize the understory, shutting out the native maples by being more shade tolerant than red and getting a headstart on sugar.  It's also a brittle tree easily damaged by ice, behind only silver among maples for vulnerability.

However, I was quite surprised to learn (and taste) that syrup from Norway maple is fine - needs more boiling (similar to red maple) but the spring sap is clear like other maples, not the milky white of its sap when the leaves are out.  That faint bit of favor is overwhelmed by the species' other terrible characteristics.

Only 0.60" by 7 AM and that at low 40s temps, so I don't see much flood threat unless we get another inch with 50s to melt the mountain snowpack.

[powderfreak]

Awesome weather for an evening skin and ski.

Mid-50s, sunshine, no wind.

[powderfreak]

RT 108 is getting closer to opening.  The Smuggs/Jeffersonville side has been snow free for some time now, but the CAD of the Stowe side has kept snow a lot longer.  However, the road pavement is finally out and there's only a little visible snow on the road from the Stowe closure gate.  A whole bunch of the road has become visible in the past couple days at the gate.