NNE Spring Thread

[tamarack]

The more I look at my daily snow tally and notes the higher this winter is going in my mind, lol.

Yep.  What boosts this winter, in addition to SDDs and despite the two "meat-of-winter" thaws, was the 4 super-juicy events, one for each winter month.  I've never had 4 circa-2" storms in one winter before, at least not in Maine.  (And in NNJ, 4 such events would probably see 3 or maybe all four being rain.)

DEC:  2.10" LE, 21.0" snow, including 17" in a 7-hour period.
JAN:  2.09" LE, all IP/ZR except perhaps some RA at the end, and mainly IP.  Gained just 4" depth, nice 2:1 event.
FEB:  1.84" LE, 21.0" snow.  Rate never went much past 1"/hr, but we had about 18 (non-consecutive) hours at that rate.
MAR: 2.12" LE, 15.5" and all snow despite the low ratio.  Had 10" in 5 hr with gusts to 40 (judging by nearby locations plus house creaks/groans) - full blizz criteria.

Apart for the thaws, the one real disappointment was the Feb 15-16 storm.  I've not reached 50" here - been within 4" in 5 different winters - and with 43" OG and "most likely" forecast at 17" less than 24 hr before 1st flakes, 50+ seemed like a gimme and 60 not out of the question if we high-ended.  Then that "most likely" fell to 13" the next morning and I was totally un-surprised when it became 8" as the snow began.  The tiny-flake windy event brought 6.2" and got the pack back to 46".  Thjen came thaw #2 and making history was off the table.  If I'd gotten that full dump and pack into the high 50s, this winter would've been in the mix with 00-01 and 07-08 for best in show.

[Lava Rock]

Excellent in depth analysis from you guys. My grade school analysis:
Cold: C
Retention: C
Continuous snow pack: B+
Number of 12+" storms: A-
Snow total: A. At 132.5", it's the most I've ever recorded since 1989.
OVERALL: B+

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[powderfreak]

9 minutes ago, tamarack said:

The more I look at my daily snow tally and notes the higher this winter is going in my mind, lol.

Yep.  What boosts this winter, in addition to SDDs and despite the two "meat-of-winter" thaws, was the 4 super-juicy events, one for each winter month.  I've never had 4 circa-2" storms in one winter before, at least not in Maine.  (And in NNJ, 4 such events would probably see 3 or maybe all four being rain.)

DEC:  2.10" LE, 21.0" snow, including 17" in a 7-hour period.
JAN:  2.09" LE, all IP/ZR except perhaps some RA at the end, and mainly IP.  Gained just 4" depth, nice 2:1 event.
FEB:  1.84" LE, 21.0" snow.  Rate never went much past 1"/hr, but we had about 18 (non-consecutive) hours at that rate.
MAR: 2.12" LE, 15.5" and all snow despite the low ratio.  Had 10" in 5 hr with gusts to 40 (judging by nearby locations plus house creaks/groans) - full blizz criteria.

Apart for the thaws, the one real disappointment was the Feb 15-16 storm.  I've not reached 50" here - been within 4" in 5 different winters - and with 43" OG and "most likely" forecast at 17" less than 24 hr before 1st flakes, 50+ seemed like a gimme and 60 not out of the question if we high-ended.  Then that "most likely" fell to 13" the next morning and I was totally un-surprised when it became 8" as the snow began.  The tiny-flake windy event brought 6.2" and got the pack back to 46".  Thjen came thaw #2 and making history was off the table.  If I'd gotten that full dump and pack into the high 50s, this winter would've been in the mix with 00-01 and 07-08 for best in show.

Its funny as those are the two closest winters for Stowe in both snowfall (we just barely beat 07-08 and fell short of the all-time ski area record in 2000-01 by 60 inches). 

Snow depths show the story between the three winters... this one was right with them except for the late February thaw.  So 07-08 beats this year in SDDs because of that thaw, but this year beat 07-08 with snowfall because we had to recover from that thaw to get back up and eventually exceed the 07-08 depth again.  In mid-February after the 109" in 3 weeks we were tracking higher than both of those winters.

I'd say 2000-01 would be an A/A+ winter...07-08 is an A...and this winter an A-/A.  Without that February thaw its an easy A or A+ as it probably would've come close to the all-time depth record.

 

Definitely localized to the Stowe/Mansfield area it seems to some extent, but Jay Peak also had its snowiest winter since 2000-01.  Even if you think Jay over-reports (they are at 491"), one might imagine they'd be consistent in that so you can at least compare different winters, ha. 

 

[powderfreak]

Just now, Lava Rock said:

Excellent in depth analysis from you guys. My grade school analysis:
Cold: C
Retention: C
Continuous snow pack: B+
Number of 12+" storms: A-
Snow total: A. At 132.5", it's the most I've ever recorded since 1989.
OVERALL: B+

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

Give it an A+ then ;). 

[powderfreak]

Nice afternoon after a firm and frozen morning with snow showers.

The rock ledges around some mid-mountain trails are melting out as they usually go first (rock likes sun this time of year), but overall snowpack is hanging in there straight to the base area.

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, J.Spin said:

 

Temperatures are an interesting thing, I don’t track them or factor them in to my winter evaluation, but I’m not sure how I would anyway.  What increases the grade, warmer temperatures or colder temperatures?

 

Colder temperatures mean I’m potentially freezing whenever I’m outside, it costs more to heat the house, dealing with anything on the car (or other outdoor equipment) is a massive headache, and life is generally just that much more difficult.  Not to mention the times when we get those cold, dry, arctic air intrusions and it’s “too cold to snow” because the storm track has been pushed southward.  None of that is stuff that’s going to raise the winter grade for me.

 

Warmer temperatures can also be a headache because it can obviously be too warm to snow or maintain snowpack.  But, being “relatively” warm and right in the storm track is a huge plus, not to mention getting to enjoy comfortable temperatures in the 25 to 30 F range every day, where it’s pleasant to be outside on the slopes yet the snowpack is staying wintry. 

 

As far as I’m concerned, all that really matters with respect to temperatures is… whatever gets the most snow to fall.  Therefore, the snowpack and snowfall numbers take care of the temperature issue.  The larger the snowfall and resulting snowpack numbers, the “better” the temperatures were, however cold or warm they might have been.

I couldn't agree more with this post, and especially the bolded.

Love how you put this into words, J. 

Sort of like big negative temperature departures are only a positive if the snow is happening.  If a very cold month is not resulting in snow, it actually probably brings the grade down from pure annoyance (as you said, heating costs, praying your car starts, not as much fun for outdoor recreation below zero, etc).  It just has to be cold enough to snow and if that happens, the temperatures are perfect, ha.

[mreaves]

2 hours ago, Lava Rock said:

Excellent in depth analysis from you guys. My grade school analysis:
Cold: C
Retention: C
Continuous snow pack: B+
Number of 12+" storms: A-
Snow total: A. At 132.5", it's the most I've ever recorded since 1989.
OVERALL: B+

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

A B+ from the Master of Meh is indeed impressive!

[Ginx snewx]

15 hours ago, powderfreak said:

I couldn't agree more with this post, and especially the bolded.

Love how you put this into words, J. 

Sort of like big negative temperature departures are only a positive if the snow is happening.  If a very cold month is not resulting in snow, it actually probably brings the grade down from pure annoyance (as you said, heating costs, praying your car starts, not as much fun for outdoor recreation below zero, etc).  It just has to be cold enough to snow and if that happens, the temperatures are perfect, ha.

I would think cold to retain snow/keep ice formed is probably what most are talking about when grading winter not personal comfort

[mreaves]

14 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

I would think cold to retain snow/keep ice formed is probably what most are talking about when grading winter not personal comfort

Yes, that's what I am thinking about.  All of our grades are based upon what we enjoy about winter.  For snowmobiling, the cold freezes water bars and allows for better grooming.  I also happen to enjoy a few brutal, arctic type days every winter.  But I want the cold so the ground and water freezes up tight.

[wxeyeNH]

Just off of my head my My Grade School Analysis for my location in Central NH

Cold  C-/D+

 A few very cold days with highs in the single numbers.  No super cold spells with lows in the double digit negatives....  Actually Newfound Lake barely froze over out in the main body.  Certainly not thick enough ice for car racing etc. as in other years..

Retention A-  Lots of snow with enough days above 32F to glaciate the pack.  Couple of sleet events too.. Never the kind of events like down in SNE where it snows and then warms up to 55F the next day and melts it right off.

Continuous Snow Cover  B+   Late November to April 10th with a short break in Mid Feb where we got down to about 75% bare ground in open fields

Number of 12+  D-   We had about 11" during the March blizzard which was our biggest storm until the late season heavy wet snow a couple of weeks ago.  Got about 14" or so in that one.  Maine kept getting clobbered but we would miss the big amounts.

Snow Total B+   105".  Guessing normal is in the 80's.  The 1998 I had about 150".  

Overall this winter gets a B.  I'd take another one like it just with a couple of block busters thrown in like Maine got...

[dendrite]

Cold: D+
Retention: B
Continuous snow pack: A
Number of 12+" storms: A-
Snow total: A-
Overall: B+

[CoolMike]

17 hours ago, powderfreak said:

I couldn't agree more with this post, and especially the bolded.

Love how you put this into words, J. 

Sort of like big negative temperature departures are only a positive if the snow is happening.  If a very cold month is not resulting in snow, it actually probably brings the grade down from pure annoyance (as you said, heating costs, praying your car starts, not as much fun for outdoor recreation below zero, etc).  It just has to be cold enough to snow and if that happens, the temperatures are perfect, ha.

The exception to this rule for me (as a mostly flat lander) is that I want fall and early spring to be as cold as possible for snowmaking and snowpack retention reasons respectively.  A cold fall allows the resorts to open earlier and expand faster and a cold spring allows them to remain open later.

[wxeyeNH]

Snow almost gone, ice is just about out of the pond and the grass is started turning green the past couple of days. On cue the lawn mowing crew showed up late yesterday afternoon!  They do trimming too, shrubs a specialty.  What great service. Can't beat the price either!

https://video.nest.com/clip/c57774e695fe4baba5b0619972b99fe4.mp4

[powderfreak]

2 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

I would think cold to retain snow/keep ice formed is probably what most are talking about when grading winter not personal comfort

Yeah but there's such a high obsession in a lot of grading about below normal temps being significantly better.  I think it can be a negative if it's so cold it suppresses everything for a month at a time and is generally more annoying.

I really enjoyed this winter's temps, lol.  It was cold enough to snow and keep continuous snow cover.  I liked how the it was warm departures in mid-winter when normals are low enough that it still snowed a ton at +6 lol...and then extremely cold in March once normals start rising.  

My passion for below zero highs is pretty low on the mountain.  It's fine if it's snowing but I think many here would agree brutally cold periods without a solid snow event (not a day or two but like those 2-3 week stretches) isn't a heck of a lot of fun.  That stuff lowers my personal grade for a Winter, lol.

 

 

[Angus]

In terms of grading, consistency of snow cover and ice weighs very heavily in my rating. in metrowest boston, we were probably about average for snow fall but our days with a pack were way below normal. The local nordic center was probably only open 2 weeks in total which is very low for them. the only ice skating we had was on shallow ponds right around xmas/new years. 

[tamarack]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah but there's such a high obsession in a lot of grading about below normal temps being significantly better.  I think it can be a negative if it's so cold it suppresses everything for a month at a time and is generally more annoying.

I really enjoyed this winter's temps, lol.  It was cold enough to snow and keep continuous snow cover.  I liked how the it was warm departures in mid-winter when normals are low enough that it still snowed a ton at +6 lol...and then extremely cold in March once normals start rising.  

My passion for below zero highs is pretty low on the mountain.  It's fine if it's snowing but I think many here would agree brutally cold periods without a solid snow event (not a day or two but like those 2-3 week stretches) isn't a heck of a lot of fun.  That stuff lowers my personal grade for a Winter, lol.

I probably cite temperatures as much as anyone when grading a winter, though my snow grade given weigh twice that for temps.  However, for me cold temps are part of overall winter severity.  So is wind.  So is establishing new records for snow and/or for cold.  In addition to its effect on my pure weenie-ism, cold helps with winter timber harvests (unless it's Jan. 16-17, 2009 cold, when machines don't start, or break when they do start.)  Since my paycheck is derived mostly from timber cut on the lands managed by the agency for which I work, that certainly biases my opinion.

As for what I've boldfaced, we fortunately have never really faced that here, though I agree with the statement.  (Had stretches like that in a number of NNJ winters.)  Even in 2002-03, the classic BN temps/BN snow winter - 2nd coldest DJF of 19 and 21" below avg snowfall - we never had less than 10" on the ground when the true cold was present.

[Ginx snewx]

2 hours ago, wxeyeNH said:

Snow almost gone, ice is just about out of the pond and the grass is started turning green the past couple of days. On cue the lawn mowing crew showed up late yesterday afternoon!  They do trimming too, shrubs a specialty.  What great service. Can't beat the price either!

https://video.nest.com/clip/c57774e695fe4baba5b0619972b99fe4.mp4

congrats grass cutters?

[Ginx snewx]

8 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

congrats grass cutters?

lol wait it gets better

[alex]

1 minute ago, Ginx snewx said:

lol wait it gets better

Can we save it for November?

[wxeyeNH]

Congrads to Alex and me!  Another foot.  It's a lock!

[Ginx snewx]

5 hours ago, wxeyeNH said:

Congrads to Alex and me!  Another foot.  It's a lock!

Not anything you guys want to hear but the Euro has Ensemble support 

[ORH_wxman]

17 hours ago, tamarack said:

I probably cite temperatures as much as anyone when grading a winter, though my snow grade given weigh twice that for temps.  However, for me cold temps are part of overall winter severity.  So is wind.  So is establishing new records for snow and/or for cold.  In addition to its effect on my pure weenie-ism, cold helps with winter timber harvests (unless it's Jan. 16-17, 2009 cold, when machines don't start, or break when they do start.)  Since my paycheck is derived mostly from timber cut on the lands managed by the agency for which I work, that certainly biases my opinion.

As for what I've boldfaced, we fortunately have never really faced that here, though I agree with the statement.  (Had stretches like that in a number of NNJ winters.)  Even in 2002-03, the classic BN temps/BN snow winter - 2nd coldest DJF of 19 and 21" below avg snowfall - we never had less than 10" on the ground when the true cold was present.

It's also different for powderfreak who is spending so much time between 1500 and 4000 feet elevation. A bunch of upslope snowfall there with plus 8 temps is great when you are skiing through trees at 2700 feet elevation...it's pretty much garbage when you are mreaves a little further south, lower elevation, and not in the upslope zone. He's accumulating much smaller amounts and watching it melt away while it's doing fine in the spruce forests high on Mt Mansfield. 

This is where I had said before "you can see where everyone lives in NNE based on a lot of the reactions". This wasn't like a 2007-2008 or 2000-2001 where they all got destroyed even outside of the upslope belt and the cold was sufficient lower down. This was pretty localized...esp in VT where they were too far west to get many of the big storms Maine got earlier in the winter. That zone between the Maine/E NH synoptic snow and the N VT upslope was not very good this year and the warmth was def a significant part of the reason. 

 

[Lava Rock]

Cold: D+
Retention: B
Continuous snow pack: A
Number of 12+" storms: A-
Snow total: A-
Overall: B+

Almost exactly as mine

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[powderfreak]

10 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

It's also different for powderfreak who is spending so much time between 1500 and 4000 feet elevation. A bunch of upslope snowfall there with plus 8 temps is great when you are skiing through trees at 2700 feet elevation...it's pretty much garbage when you are mreaves a little further south, lower elevation, and not in the upslope zone. He's accumulating much smaller amounts and watching it melt away while it's doing fine in the spruce forests high on Mt Mansfield. 

This is where I had said before "you can see where everyone lives in NNE based on a lot of the reactions". This wasn't like a 2007-2008 or 2000-2001 where they all got destroyed even outside of the upslope belt and the cold was sufficient lower down. This was pretty localized...esp in VT where they were too far west to get many of the big storms Maine got earlier in the winter. That zone between the Maine/E NH synoptic snow and the N VT upslope was not very good this year and the warmth was def a significant part of the reason. 

 

At the same time the snowfall totals ARE still solid.  BTV has over 100" on the season (I believe this winter is #9 or #10 all-time since 1882) and if you plot the snowfall I think you'd be surprised at how decent the snowfall totals were.  I mean BTV came up like one good storm short of being near 07-08 and 00-01 totals referenced, it wasn't just an upslope zone blitz.  2011-2012 was more of an upslope only winter when I had like 100" and BTV had 30". 

Outside of the Maine synoptic snow and the N VT upslope, it was still pretty darn good for snowfall.  Looking at CoCoRAHS and general climo, I'd say most look to be decently above normal for snowfall this season.  I mean, J.Spin still had 186" of snowfall so far this season and is only 17" away from his 2007-08 total.  Cabot, VT east of here and north of Montpelier had over 200" this winter based on CoCoRAHS.  That's pretty damn big for outside the upslope zone.  The northeast Kingdom did really well too, Lyndonville event jacked a couple times.  It was a big winter for Burke Mountain, one of their bests since 2000 as well and they aren't an upslope mountain.

I would agree the temperatures played the role of making it maybe seem less snowy?  1,500ft and higher can survive and keep snow at +8 in the winter...but below 1,000ft not so much I guess.  It snowed a lot though in most areas looking at the end of the season totals.

But I wouldn't say the above normal snowfall was pretty localized over here.  It was widespread when you plot it. 

[mreaves]

21 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

At the same time the snowfall totals ARE still solid.  BTV has over 100" on the season (I believe this winter is #9 or #10 all-time since 1882) and if you plot the snowfall I think you'd be surprised at how decent the snowfall totals were.  I mean BTV came up like one good storm short of being near 07-08 and 00-01 totals referenced, it wasn't just an upslope zone blitz.  2011-2012 was more of an upslope only winter when I had like 100" and BTV had 30". 

I don't think I'd say it was pretty localized...looking at CoCoRAHS and general climo, I'd say most look to be decently above normal for snowfall this season.  I mean, J.Spin still had 186" of snowfall so far this season and is only 17" away from his 2007-08 total. 

I would agree the temperatures played the role of making it maybe seem less snowy?  1,500ft and higher can survive and keep snow at +8 in the winter...but below 1,000ft not so much I guess.

But I wouldn't say the above normal snowfall was pretty localized over here.  It was pretty widespread when you plot it.  Cabot, VT east of here and north of Montpelier had over 200" this winter based on CoCoRAHS.  That's pretty damn big for outside the upslope zone.  The northeast Kingdom did really well too.

Retention, retention, retention. Losing big amounts twice, hurts the grade.  My personal measure of snow cover, literally my back yard, managed to keep snow from the beginning of December until the end of the big February/March torch, only to be nearly immediately replenished by the March events. We definitely had a lot of snow fall this year but there were significant stretches when it was a useless, crusty, glaciated mess. Even the big snow areas outside of the ski areas suffered different degrees of this same fate. To me, we lost a good 4 or 5 weeks of winter and my C grade reflects the balancing of the great parts with the absolutely awful parts. 

[powderfreak]

18 minutes ago, mreaves said:

Retention, retention, retention. Losing big amounts twice, hurts the grade.  My personal measure of snow cover, literally my back yard, managed to keep snow from the beginning of December until the end of the big February/March torch, only to be nearly immediately replenished by the March events. We definitely had a lot of snow fall this year but there were significant stretches when it was a useless, crusty, glaciated mess. Even the big snow areas outside of the ski areas suffered different degrees of this same fate. To me, we lost a good 4 or 5 weeks of winter and my C grade reflects the balancing of the great parts with the absolutely awful parts. 

Oh I totally get that.  I thought ORH was more saying the snowfall wasn't that great. 

The quality of the snow on the ground is an interesting aspect that I don't think we talk about much.  "Glaciated mess" lol, I like it but know what you mean.  I was like you and managed to keep solid cover from the start of December until like two days before the big Stella storm in mid-March.  I had snow on the ground more days than any other recent winter except for 2010-11...even if the depths weren't overly high and I bet a lot of other areas had the same thing.  But with snowmobiling you need a certain type of snow and depth right? 

I see Burke Mountain is saying they had record snowfall this winter in the NE Kingdom in their trail report, but it doesn't really quantify what that was.  They are usually a decent NE Kingdom barometer. 

Coles Pond in Walden at 2,000ft still has 23" on the ground, lol.  I'm surprised the snowmobiling was so bad in those areas.  Especially after I saw Cabot had over 200" on the season.

[powderfreak]

I forgot I never shared this from Wednesday. 

I did my snow survey on Mansfield and at 3,000ft I found 78" of snow depth.  That's the top of a 60"/5 foot core tube and its 18" below the snow surface.  That's also Tim Kelly's legs, lol.

 

I got the most liquid I've ever seen in 6 years of this. 

Weighing the cores of those 78" was maxing out the scale.  It went all the way around the dial once and then won't go past the 2" mark (27" of liquid) a second time around.  There was more water in there and I'd bet it was near 30".

It is a very dense snowpack now...very wet and very solid.  Will take a lot of energy to clear this out.

 

Down at 1,600ft we found 20" of depth and 9" of water...that's some ripe snow when it approaches 50% water. 

[mreaves]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

Oh I totally get that.  I thought ORH was more saying the snowfall wasn't that great. 

The quality of the snow on the ground is an interesting aspect that I don't think we talk about much.  "Glaciated mess" lol, I like it but know what you mean.  I was like you and managed to keep solid cover from the start of December until like two days before the big Stella storm in mid-March.  I had snow on the ground more days than any other recent winter except for 2010-11...even if the depths weren't overly high and I bet a lot of other areas had the same thing.  But with snowmobiling you need a certain type of snow and depth right? 

I see Burke Mountain is saying they had record snowfall this winter in the NE Kingdom in their trail report, but it doesn't really quantify what that was.  They are usually a decent NE Kingdom barometer. 

Coles Pond in Walden at 2,000ft still has 23" on the ground, lol.  I'm surprised the snowmobiling was so bad in those areas.  Especially after I saw Cabot had over 200" on the season.

The trails travel over dirt roads in places and through a lot of fields. Those areas are often vulnerable to run of the mill warm ups let alone the hellacious torch we had. Also, we don't have snow guns to resurface after a warm up and refreeze. The trails become icy sheets of death and the sleds overheat because there is no snow thrown up to cool them. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of good this season but it wasn't an end to ender. If it had been your average week or so of January thaw type weather it would have been much better. 

[powderfreak]

21 minutes ago, mreaves said:

The trails travel over dirt roads in places and through a lot of fields. Those areas are often vulnerable to run of the mill warm ups let alone the hellacious torch we had. Also, we don't have snow guns to resurface after a warm up and refreeze. The trails become icy sheets of death and the sleds overheat because there is no snow thrown up to cool them. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of good this season but it wasn't an end to ender. If it had been your average week or so of January thaw type weather it would have been much better. 

Very interesting stuff to learn about a Winter from a snowmobiles point of view.  

The stuff about the fields makes sense.  Could probably have even 20-30" depths in the woods but bare ground in spots on fields from wind and then thaws over time.  

The surface conditions sound like they'd be similar to what was seen in like 2013-14 with brutal cold mixed with a lot of rain events...except this winter didn't have the brutal cold snaps and had more snow than that winter state-wide.

[powderfreak]

Happy Easter.  What a drive to the mountain this morning at 3:45am (Easter Sunrise Service)...as soon as you hit the snow line at 1,300-1,400ft it was some of the densest fog I can remember.  56F and humid over the snowpack and its crazy how as soon as you hit snow in the woods the fog dropped visibility to near zero.  Like 5mph driving even though you know the road by heart.

First thunderstorm of the season last night...woke up me.  Rivers are raging.  Snow is ripe and I have a feeling we may have lopped off another half a foot last night with the humid thunderstorms.