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February Medium/Long Range Discussion Thread


North Balti Zen

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1 minute ago, Thanatos_I_Am said:

There's a HP where the LP is on the GFS... and yes. Nothing.

I know, Im just saying that the Canadians timing on its low was 12-24 hours earlier than the GFS....The euro and CMC are similar-ish at 192. Its moot because it doesnt have it anyway, but hard to tell a ton from 24 hr maps

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9 minutes ago, mitchnick said:

It's a repeating pattern with no signs whatsoever at Day 10 of any change or help from the MJO. In fact, day 10, the ridge is heading back over Japan.

EPS starts to improve around day 13. Were screwed before then unless we get perfect timing with the trailing wave day 7. Doubt it. 

If, big if, the mjo does kick in long range the way it would happen wouldn't be by progressing a trough into the east it would be through discontinuous retrogression. More then likely the ridging would slowly pull back and center itself further northwest up top.  Then systems would start to cut under and a trough would develop in the east. Kind of just sneak up on us by developing over us not progressing in. 

That's not going to be a cold pattern. Average temps. We're cut off from true cold thanks to the epo. But get something amped up with a perfect track it could work. Way out epo trends neutral but by then we're talking late feb so cold isn't that cold anymore. Forget any truly cold patterns. No way. Ain't happening.  Our last hope lies with getting enough trough in the east to hope a system tracks under us and there is just enough cold to salvage something from this dumpster fire winter. 

Gefs shows a workable pattern. 

IMG_0508.PNG

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6 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

EPS starts to improve around day 13. Were screwed before then unless we get perfect timing with the trailing wave day 7. Doubt it. 

If, big if, the mjo does kick in long range the way it would happen wouldn't be by progressing a trough into the east it would be through discontinuous retrogression. More then likely the ridging would slowly pull back and center itself further northwest up top.  Then systems would start to cut under and a trough would develop in the east. Kind of just sneak up on us by developing over us not progressing in. 

That's not going to be a cold pattern. Average temps. We're cut off from true cold thanks to the epo. But get something amped up with a perfect track it could work. Way out epo trends neutral but by then we're talking late feb so cold isn't that cold anymore. Forget any truly cold patterns. No way. Ain't happening.  Our last hope lies with getting enough trough in the east to hope a system tracks under us and there is just enough cold to salvage something from this dumpster fire winter. 

Gefs shows a workable pattern. 

IMG_0508.PNG

I honestly think I've seen a similar, if not almost the same, pattern advertised on the GEFS this year without luck. I know you're only responding to my post, but we are really getting near the end of what we can consider a reasonable period for snow and we're still relying on 13 day GEFS maps that put us to 2/15. I think it's fair to say we're done short of a fluke.

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38 minutes ago, high risk said:

      certainly possible, even with the 12z GFS solution.   A super deep sfc low passing by to our northwest at this time of year can produce convection even if the cold front comes through at the wrong time of day.    And if the timing changes, maybe we can have a 2/24/16 repeat....

Yes please ;)

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Longer term pattern looks better and better, delayed but not denied? Near end of run, it looks rather similar to late Feb 93. 

Shorter term, I am thinking 50-50 chances on day 8-9 time frame. Not buying Euro bombing GL low scenario and GFS looks more realistic. 

Whatever happens there, think there will be one great storm beyond day 16 and quite possibly into March. Good snow cover developing in Midwest will help your chances, open Lakes will maintain lake effect increasing snowfall to your north. These factors should eventually pay off with strong cold high in right place at right time. Really good time frame may be March 10-15 for the winter's best storm. 

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33 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

Euro was very encouraging

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you're rooting for a futility record. 

honestly, maybe signs that I'm too old for this, but I am finding it funny how futile it has become this year

still say next year rocks

as for your post Roger, I, like the rest of us, can only hope you're right

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I'm honestly not that far away from throwing in the towel. I'll probably keep following pretty closely for the next 7-10 days. Once we approach mid February, If I'm not seeing a legit pattern in the 10-15 day range, I'll definitely mail in it and just check in once in awhile. At least we already feel like there is hope of a big winter next year.

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I honestly think I've seen a similar, if not almost the same, pattern advertised on the GEFS this year without luck. I know you're only responding to my post, but we are really getting near the end of what we can consider a reasonable period for snow and we're still relying on 13 day GEFS maps that put us to 2/15. I think it's fair to say we're done short of a fluke.


Couldn't have said it better..
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1 hour ago, mitchnick said:

I honestly think I've seen a similar, if not almost the same, pattern advertised on the GEFS this year without luck. I know you're only responding to my post, but we are really getting near the end of what we can consider a reasonable period for snow and we're still relying on 13 day GEFS maps that put us to 2/15. I think it's fair to say we're done short of a fluke.

Please don't think I'm dismissing your points because they are by and large valid. But let me offer two retorts. 

1. We have had better and worse looks repeatedly but not quite that look with the banana blocking look and pna ridge and mjo supportive of the look. Most of the time the lower heights were centered to our north. Maybe it shifts that way but as of now this is slightly different. Also missed in all this is the fact that the ridge bridge up top we were excited about 10-15 days ago did verify. It just didn't do any good. Absolutely nothing came across. The stj went totally dead. We are in the middle of a 7 day window and we're going to be dry. Then after the pattern breaks we revert to a wave train. Lol.  But that little FU from Mother Nature doesn't mean the models were wrong. They nailed the h5 pattern. They may teased us for a couple days that the pattern might reload and continue long term but then the mjo spiked and killed that idea. That was a bust. 

2. Even after point one I still concede your general points are true. So what if the models hit on pattern generalities it hasn't snowed. I agree. But I can only analyze what we see. I can analyze the mjo and guidance output and discuss what it might mean. I don't know how to quantify the "this just sucks" points. It's the long range thread so I'm just looking at the long range and the objective guidance about it. I can't say it's right or not but all I can do is use what's available. I could speculate absolutely anything but without any evidence it would be a bad conversation. So I agree in principle but unless we want this thread to become a bunch of "this sucks" posts not sure what else I should do other then continue to discuss what the long range looks like from our best current guess based on the data. 

Just to support point 1 these are the actual initializations from 72 and 48 hours ago. We saw that from 15 days out and got excited. There was no way to know it wouldn't end up doing us any good. We wasted a pretty good pattern. That's not a model failure it's bad luck (or seasonal persistence)

IMG_0509.PNGIMG_0510.PNG

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27 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

Euro ens laugh at anyone thinking the trailing wave idea may actually happen. 

I'm more interested in if they start to build on the modest signal they had day 10-15 last night. I think we're toast due to the mjo spike into phase 4-7 until then. The trailing wave requires so many moving parts it's not worth wasting anything on or rooting for unless it just pops up last second. Anyone doing that is setting themselves up for a big hurt otherwise. 

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2 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

I'm more interested in if they start to build on the modest signal they had day 10-15 last night. I think we're toast due to the mjo spike into phase 4-7 until then. The trailing wave requires so many moving parts it's not worth wasting anything on or rooting for unless it just pops up last second. Anyone doing that is setting themselves up for a big hurt otherwise. 

I am all in for that trailing wave. We are due and things will trend our way for once. 8-12 inches

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2 minutes ago, mitchnick said:

no need to sugar coat it   lol

The gefs and EPS have been flipping around. For days the gefs was looking ok and EPS awful. Then last night they flipped and gefs was bad and EPS better. Now they flipped back. Not sure what to make of that. Obviously their both struggling. But this run was awful. Worst since the January torch was setting in. Just crap the whole run. No threats even remotely. 

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19 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

The gefs and EPS have been flipping around. For days the gefs was looking ok and EPS awful. Then last night they flipped and gefs was bad and EPS better. Now they flipped back. Not sure what to make of that. Obviously their both struggling. But this run was awful. Worst since the January torch was setting in. Just crap the whole run. No threats even remotely. 

The MJO lost its mojo

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