UlsterCountySnowZ Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 33 minutes ago, ag3 said: This. And if there is a change of precip, you measure depth at that point. And if no change, then only 1 measurement in a 24 hour period or when the entire event ends. 3 minutes ago, ag3 said: " If snow falls late r in the 24 -hour period an additional measurement can be made but report only the largest accumulated snowfall total. No matter how many times it snows during the 24 -hour period report only the SINGLE highest snowfall amount that accumulated on the SMB . Only clear the snowboard at the end of the 24 -hour observing period . If you cannot take a measurement at the end of the snow event, measure it as soon as possib le after the event ends and no later than the official observation time. See Figure 1 as an example. " And I also believe there's a special cases somewhere in there for situations like yesterday where precip changes several times over a 24hr period... I believe your suppose to clear after that specific Ptype has ended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: 4.8" then would have been And I also believe there's a special cases somewhere in there for situations like yesterday where precip changes several times over a 24hr period... I believe your suppose to clear after that specific Ptype has ended? I think you're supposed to measure it at the change but not clear the board until the normal 24 hour time. Northshorewx knows better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishRob17 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, NorthShoreWx said: You think anyone reads? Ok, ok, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 the max depth should be what the max depth was...it could have come at any time during an event...that's the way I did obs but I was fanatic about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlsterCountySnowZ Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, IrishRob17 said: Ok, ok, This only covers snow though, what if u have all 3 ptype in a 24 hour period... I went from sleet to snow, to rain, back to sleet, then finished off as snow.... all in 24hours... I'm so confused on what I should have done properly lol im sure with the exception of my 4.8 sleet snow measurement at 6am... the rest of my numbers are F'd.... I took a measurement with each change.. and wiped... should I NOT haves wiped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: This only covers snow though, what if u have all 3 ptype in a 24 hour period... I went from sleet to snow, to rain, back to sleet, then finished off as snow.... all in 24hours... I'm so confused on what I should have done properly lol You are supposed to clear board before event. When there is a changeover, measure the snow depth. DO NOT clear the board. When it starts snowing/sleeting again, measure at the end of that again and so on. If depth is higher then, that is what you report but you dont clear it and add both #s as 1 total. Board shouldn't be cleared until the next 24 hour time period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masomenos Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, NorthShoreWx said: If you wipe the board every day at midnight, snowfall reported would be 10" for the 24th and 10" for the 25th. If at some other time, then the answer is, it depends on how much fell before and after the time when the board is wiped. I worded that wrong. Meant daily, not 24 hr. On second thought, I don't even think I'm going to bother entertaining the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPcantmeasuresnow Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, IrishRob17 said: Ok, ok, So obviously the Conservancy for one isn't doing this. To do this correctly you would have to measure every hour so you could record the point of maximum snow depth, before melting compression etc,. It may explain many of their under measurements. Personally I think this is insane for the examples I gave earlier but I don't make the rules. BUT if I did wiping the board every 6 hours seemed to make a lot of sense and you could still use max snow depth in that six hour period on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, uncle W said: the max depth should be what the max depth was...it could have come at any time during an event...that's the way I did obs but I was fanatic about it... That's how I always did it until they started making noise about wiping a board every 6 hours about 10 or 15 years ago. Now it's back to traditional basics, except for not adding different ptypes. I've posted before that comparisons to some of the long duration biggies of the past with recent inflated totals is not accurate. For example, the 17.7" reported in the park for the blizzard of 78 represents the max depth during a 36 hour storm. And I remember that being specifically called out at that time (880, where else?) as it was reported while the snow was still falling that they did not expect any higher measurement because the snow had started to settle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlsterCountySnowZ Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, ag3 said: You are supposed to clear board before event. When there is a changeover, measure the snow depth. DO NOT clear the board. When it starts snowing/sleeting again, measure at the end of that again and so on. Board shouldn't be cleared until the next 24 hour time period. Ok for some reason I'm retarded and not grasping it fully.... heres what happened.. explain what I should have done so I understand with a picture lol I recorded 4.8" of sleet/snow at 6am and hadn't wiped the board at all... at this point precip was over and I wiped... 9 am roughly rain started and I recorded .25" in my PWS at 330 it changed to heavy sleet again and I recorded 1.4" of sleet/snow between 345pm-730pm, at 730 it changed to ALL snow so I wiped again Then when precip stopped at 11ish I measured 1.7" new snow from 7:30- 11 did info it right or wrong? And what would my storm total be then? edit: I should NOT have wiped at 730 when I changed to all snow correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 I had a board but also had an area where I could measure depth...you can't use the board for max depth...as a kid the only thing that mattered was how much snow was on the ground when the storm ended... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Just now, UlsterCountySnowZ said: Ok for some reason I'm retarded and not grasping it fully.... heres what happened.. explain what I should have done so I understand with a picture lol I recorded 4.8" of sleet/snow at 6am and hadn't wiped the board at all... at this point precip was over and I wiped... 9 am roughly rain started and I recorded .25" in my PWS at 330 it changed to heavy sleet again and I recorded 1.4" of sleet/snow between 345pm-730pm, at 730 it changed to ALL snow so I wiped again Then when precip stopped at 11ish I measured 1.7" new snow from 7:30- 11 did info it right or wrong? And what would my storm total be then? You arent supposed to wipe the board clean in between. The only time you could've was the next day, 24 hours after 1st clearing it. Your snow report should be whatever the max depth was without wiping it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlsterCountySnowZ Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, ag3 said: You arent supposed to wipe the board clean in between. The only time you could've was the next day, 24 hours after 1st clearing it. Your snow report should be whatever the max depth was without wiping it. So for records purposes how do you factually record storm total? If your not suppose to add up the different ptype? If my max depth was 4.8" but I still picked up 3.1" after ptype changes and wiping from change over. I still report my total as 4.8"? Where does the additional 3.1" go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: So for records purposes how do you factually record storm total? If your not suppose to add up the different ptype? If my max depth was 4.8" but I still picked up 3.1" after ptype changes and wiping from change over. I still report my total as 4.8"? Where does the additional 3.1" go? Northshorewx can answer this better. It's definitely a weird situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPcantmeasuresnow Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, ag3 said: You arent supposed to wipe the board clean in between. The only time you could've was the next day, 24 hours after 1st clearing it. Your snow report should be whatever the max depth was without wiping it. 4 minutes ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: So for records purposes how do you factually record storm total? If your not suppose to add up the different ptype? If my max depth was 4.8" but I still picked up 3.1" after ptype changes and wiping from change over. I still report my total as 4.8"? Where does the additional 3.1" go? That's only part of the problem, the other part is 90% of weather weenies do not measure this way and I'm willing to bet numerous official reporting stations for NOAA that don't have a meteorlogist in them, like all 3 in NYC and most other cities don't do it this way either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlsterCountySnowZ Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, ag3 said: Northshorewx can answer this better. It's definitely a weird situation. It sounds like if you follow the exact rules of NWS your basically writing off any of the precip that falls between changeovers. if I snow and record 10" then pour rain for 6 hours and wipe the board, but change back to snow and record 6" more in 24 hours ...according to their guidelines of max depth... my snow report is only 10", where's the extra 6 after the rain gets reported?.... forky or north shore can you explain these rare situations and what we're really suppose to do for snow total AND storm total Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 my obs were a midnight to midnight (1am during daylight savings time) period...I had a max depth for the day and a midnight depth for the dailies...my snowfall totals were how much fell that day...I tried an every six hour ob starting at 6am...between midnight and 6am I could have missed a coating that changed to rain and was wash away by 6am...or any other six hour period when I was away from the site...If I did observe it I would have recorded what ever it amounted to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: So for records purposes how do you factually record storm total? If your not suppose to add up the different ptype? If my max depth was 4.8" but I still picked up 3.1" after ptype changes and wiping from change over. I still report my total as 4.8"? Where does the additional 3.1" go? It is legit to have wiped your board at 6AM if you wipe it at 6AM every day. I prefer midnight as some form of standardization. Looking at old coop records, daily snowfall totals in neighboring sites for the same storm are all over the place because of the different times that the observers measured and also because [yes this did and does still happen] in some cases no one really checked for max depth between 24 hour observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: It sounds like if you follow the exact rules of NWS your basically writing off any of the precip that falls between changeovers. if I snow and record 10" then pour rain for 6 hours and wipe the board, but change back to snow and record 6" more in 24 hours ...according to their guidelines of max depth... my snow report is only 10", where's the extra 6 after the rain gets reported?.... forky or north shore can you explain these rare situations and what we're really suppose to do for snow total AND storm total What you are supposed to do in that situation is report 10". I don't like it in the scenario that you described, but that is the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPcantmeasuresnow Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, NorthShoreWx said: What you are supposed to do in that situation is report 10". I don't like it in the scenario that you described, but that is the standard. Any idea when this changed from wiping the board every 6 hours? Any idea why they made the change? I don't want to sound like a broken record but where the hell is the logic in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, uncle W said: my obs were a midnight to midnight (1am during daylight savings time) period...I had a max depth for the day and a midnight depth for the dailies...my snowfall totals were how much fell that day...I tried an every six hour ob starting at 6am...between midnight and 6am I could have missed a coating that changed to rain and was wash away by 6am...or any other six hour period when I was away from the site...If I did observe it I would have recorded what ever it amounted to... Pretty much the same here except I don't adjust for time changes. Life is too short Midnight to midnight works fine for us snow freaks who stay up during storms. I like being able to compare apples to apples for daily obs. I do rainfall at 9AM, but keep snowfall to a calendar day. Shows where my interests are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlsterCountySnowZ Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, CPcantmeasuresnow said: Any idea when this changed from wiping the board every 6 hours? Any idea why they made the change? I don't want to sound like a broken record but where the hell is the logic in this? Exactly...they're not accurately getting readings then in snow to rain back to snow scenarios... which really aren't all that rare... they're basically saying whatever your deepest reading was that's what fell... but that's not true... idk seems messed up to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, CPcantmeasuresnow said: Any idea when this changed from wiping the board every 6 hours? Any idea why they made the change? I don't want to sound like a broken record but where the hell is the logic in this? 3 or 4 years ago. To be fair, there is a lot of logic to it when all snow and only snow falls in a 24 hour period. Max depth means the most to most people and there is no need to live with subjective intervals for wiping a board (hourly, every 6 hours, etc). There are other obs for liquid precip (or equivalent) and daily snow depth which add to the overall picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkyfork Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 just use the method that gives you the highest number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlsterCountySnowZ Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Just now, NorthShoreWx said: 2 or 3 years ago. To be fair, there is a lot of logic to it when all snow and only snow falls in a 24 hour period. Max depth means the most to most people and there is no need to live with subjective intervals for wiping a board (hourly, every 6 hours, etc). Yea I def agree... but it shouldn't be standardized IMO... Personally I feel you should wipe at times of ptype change, and add the totals for the 24 hour timeframe, so in the scenario I gave before 10 before change to rain, then 6" after should be reported as 16" not 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: Yea I def agree... but it shouldn't be standardized IMO... Personally I feel you should wipe at times of ptype change, and add the totals for the 24 hour timeframe, so in the scenario I gave before 10 before change to rain, then 6" after should be reported as 16" not 10 What if it's only a mix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishRob17 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 42 minutes ago, UlsterCountySnowZ said: This only covers snow though, what if u have all 3 ptype in a 24 hour period... I went from sleet to snow, to rain, back to sleet, then finished off as snow.... all in 24hours... I'm so confused on what I should have done properly lol im sure with the exception of my 4.8 sleet snow measurement at 6am... the rest of my numbers are F'd.... I took a measurement with each change.. and wiped... should I NOT haves wiped? 31 minutes ago, ag3 said: You arent supposed to wipe the board clean in between. The only time you could've was the next day, 24 hours after 1st clearing it. Your snow report should be whatever the max depth was without wiping it. 16 minutes ago, NorthShoreWx said: What you are supposed to do in that situation is report 10". I don't like it in the scenario that you described, but that is the standard. They acknowledge in the guidelines that there is no perfect way to measure and that they are detailing the best practices, which is classic for the Fed's, I deal with it everyday. Anyway, yesterday was close to a worst case scenario for measuring around here. I would have been in violation because I admit I clear the board after an event. I can't commit to the same time everyday and that in itself is problematic as if I left that wet sleet on my board it would have been a PITA to clear off after it froze up solid overnight. In yesterdays example then, I measured and cleared my board in the morning after the snow stopped. So I would have been in a similar situation to Ulster had I received anything measurable last night. Typically I leave the board alone until the storm is over (assuming there's no change to rain) or at 24 hours. So Ulster, I wouldn't have made that second wipe of the board that you did in the afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BxEngine Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 22 minutes ago, CPcantmeasuresnow said: That's only part of the problem, the other part is 90% of weather weenies do not measure this way and I'm willing to bet numerous official reporting stations for NOAA that don't have a meteorlogist in them, like all 3 in NYC and most other cities don't do it this way either. Or worse the snowboard blows away in the middle of the storm and they guess at how much they have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPcantmeasuresnow Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, NorthShoreWx said: 3 or 4 years ago. To be fair, there is a lot of logic to it when all snow and only snow falls in a 24 hour period. Max depth means the most to most people and there is no need to live with subjective intervals for wiping a board (hourly, every 6 hours, etc). There are other obs for liquid precip (or equivalent) and daily snow depth which add to the overall picture. Thanks. It's not perfect for sure, but I see some of the logic but really just for all snow events, the other scenarios I'm having trouble seeing the logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPcantmeasuresnow Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, BxEngine said: Or worse the snowboard blows away in the middle of the storm and they guess at how much they have... LOL, that seems to be every other storm, even the one's with no wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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