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Mid to Long Term Discussion 2017


buckeyefan1

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If you go back and compare the 12z Euro run (snowy) from Wed to the latest today you can see the problem.  The 50/50 from Wed is now much further west so heights rise in the east.  0z EPS was in between more or less.  Other ways to get this done which was talked about above but getting favorable Atlantic blocking is seeming less likely. 

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^ The block on the southern tip of Greenland on Wednesday's run is the biggest difference on those maps, Pack.  It is much stronger and farther west.  It suppresses heights all along the east coast.  Also, the western trough is deeper in today's run.  The Aleutian block is slightly stronger too, but that's not what's making the difference.  With a -EPO/-PNA pattern, you really, really need a stout west-based -NAO.  In this pattern, if you don't have that, you can pretty much forget about it.

So, as we get closer to the event, we're seeing weaker blocking which is farther east, a deeper western trough and lower heights across Canada.  This is leading to a SER that's a bit stronger and has a more SW/NE orientation.  Definitely not the right direction.

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32 minutes ago, ajr said:

12z EPS not showing love either

EPS is horrible...EPS could bounce around this far out, but the trend isn't a good one.

With that said, there's still a ton of spread on the EPS individual member low locations for this system. Not consolidated at all. 

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Sitting back looking at previous big storms in the Carolina's Jan 2011 was a -PNA but a strong west based -NAO. Feb 2014 was a +NAO but -EPO and +PNA. My opinion is there is no way we can do it without a strong -NAO in a winter that's been dominated so far by a -PNA so far, and I see no indication of the PNA going positive. And we all know we can't buy a long lasting -NAO in the winter anymore. So with that said it's going to take pure luck to get anything to come together in the next two weeks.

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5 minutes ago, Miserable Midlands said:

Sitting back looking at previous big storms in the Carolina's Jan 2011 was a -PNA but a strong west based -NAO. Feb 2014 was a +NAO but -EPO and +PNA. My opinion is there is no way we can do it without a strong -NAO in a winter that's been dominated so far by a -PNA so far, and I see no indication of the PNA going positive. And we all know we can't buy a long lasting -NAO in the winter anymore. So with that said it's going to take pure luck to get anything to come together in the next two weeks.

From the looks of the indices today the NAO looks to go negative by New Years Day and stay that way for the rest of the run. I admit it is not the best of patterns, but it does have more potential than just "pure luck"

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21 minutes ago, Miserable Midlands said:

Sitting back looking at previous big storms in the Carolina's Jan 2011 was a -PNA but a strong west based -NAO. Feb 2014 was a +NAO but -EPO and +PNA. My opinion is there is no way we can do it without a strong -NAO in a winter that's been dominated so far by a -PNA so far, and I see no indication of the PNA going positive. And we all know we can't buy a long lasting -NAO in the winter anymore. So with that said it's going to take pure luck to get anything to come together in the next two weeks.

Good post.  And welcome.  If the base of the SW trough would break off, sort of like the 0Z Euro was showing, that would help pump up heights in the western US.  Big if.

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17 minutes ago, SnowNiner said:

12Z Para-GFS tries to get funky and give us a west based -NAO/-AO/+PNA late in the run.  Of course it would probably be dry.  Nice to see a west coast ridge on a model though.  Keep hope alive!

gfsp_z500a_nhem_49.png

I'll take an Alberta clipper and associated flurries at this point.

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So I have been researching the PNA since some of the posters here think it is the number 1 index for SE winter divination.  According to the ncsu site +Pna's are correlated with el Nino's and vice versa.  So what was the PNA doing last winter during our Godzilla el Nino and how did that fit into our ridiculous xmas temps?

 

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11 minutes ago, cbmclean said:

So I have been researching the PNA since some of the posters here think it is the number 1 index for SE winter divination.  According to the ncsu site +Pna's are correlated with el Nino's and vice versa.  So what was the PNA doing last winter during our Godzilla el Nino and how did that fit into our ridiculous xmas temps?

 

The insanely warm December last year was likely a result of a combination of a very bad MJO phase and a couple of other factors which teleconnected to a SE ridge.  That was truly a perfect storm of a disaster pattern.  The analogs largely favored a somewhat mild but wet December for the east and southeast given the El Niño.  But the El Niño was somewhat trumped by a few other factors 

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1 hour ago, Miserable Midlands said:

Sitting back looking at previous big storms in the Carolina's Jan 2011 was a -PNA but a strong west based -NAO. Feb 2014 was a +NAO but -EPO and +PNA. My opinion is there is no way we can do it without a strong -NAO in a winter that's been dominated so far by a -PNA so far, and I see no indication of the PNA going positive. And we all know we can't buy a long lasting -NAO in the winter anymore. So with that said it's going to take pure luck to get anything to come together in the next two weeks.

When you say it's harder to get a long lasting -NAO is this the general trend that you're referring to? http://www.pnas.org/content/98/23/12876.full

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Looking at the EPS some more....the pacific is a big problem with the 12 run.   With EPO in the tank we have such little HP filtering in the plains with the 12z run.  Such a big change from the 0z and yesterday's 12z run.  I was wondering why it was so much warmer.  

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12 minutes ago, BIG FROSTY said:

So which you going to believe, yesterday's or today's?

Well the problem starts day 5 with big low crashing into the west coast...it's quicker on today's run.  So if it's going to change it needs to do it tonight as EPS is really good inside day 5.    We need to get back to conus wide HP, with such strong -EPO nosing into western Canada you would think that was given but  we can screw some winters storms up down here.  Amazing that little timing difference has such huge implications down stream.   It's a wonder it ever snows here.

All this energy coming ashore is great but would be nice if a ridge could pop just off the coast to allow the HP to pour in.  

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