Southeast Sanitarium - A Place to Vent

[lilj4425]

Nobody gets screwed more than NE Georgia and Upstate SC. I think Charleston gets more snow now than we do. Lol. 

[Waiting on snow]

29 minutes ago, lilj4425 said:

Nobody gets screwed more than NE Georgia and Upstate SC. I think Charleston gets more snow now than we do. Lol. 

No CAE has the honor of being the epic screwzone. They haven't had snow at all in 5 years.

[burrel2]

9 minutes ago, Waiting on snow said:

No CAE has the honor of being the epic screwzone. They haven't had snow at all in 5 years.

Except they got 8.6 inches in feb 2010. The only event in history where the northern extent of precip was not under modeled... screwing the upstate.

[palmettoweather]

So true, I feel the pain in Pendleton. I'm not sure if location in regards to the mountains and blocking a cold air source is more the cause or the manmade lakes warming the Upper Savannah River Valley a crucial degree or two.

Would be interested to see if one could decouple other variables and see if the manmade lakes have caused a drop in snowfall since their creation. May not have anything to do with it, just a thought.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[YetAnotherRDUGuy]

Alright folks, I was a little harsh on that post. Lesson learned.

From now on, no venting about people venting in the venting thread.

[Orangeburgwx]

3 hours ago, Waiting on snow said:

No CAE has the honor of being the epic screwzone. They haven't had snow at all in 5 years.

 

3 hours ago, burrel2 said:

Except they got 8.6 inches in feb 2010. The only event in history where the northern extent of precip was not under modeled... screwing the upstate.

He said in the last FIVE years burrel... Hell, I get more snow than CAE

[YetAnotherRDUGuy]

6 hours ago, burrel2 said:

Your logic if flawed for Clemson, SC. You can pick any city out of a hat in Alabama/GA/SC/NC and they have had a bigger snow in the last 25 years than here.

Since 1988 the biggest single snowfall event in Clemson, SC was 5.75 inches on 1/11/2011. Second biggest snowfall in that time period is less than 4 inches.

So in Summary, I'm not just jealous of Asheville, NC. I'm jealous of Columbia, Augusta, Atlanta, Macon, Charleston, Myrtle Beach, Birmingham, Athens, Columbus, Charlotte, etc.etc.etc.

 

I'm sorry man. I had no idea.

I don't pretend to be an expert on SC climo, but I know enough to be genuinely surprised by this.

Not even Feb 2014?? Actually I took a quick glance at that, and it looks like that was E of you.

Nor Jan 96?

Not even 93?

Ugh

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

7 hours ago, burrel2 said:

Your logic if flawed for Clemson, SC. You can pick any city out of a hat in Alabama/GA/SC/NC and they have had a bigger snow in the last 25 years than here.

Since 1988 the biggest single snowfall event in Clemson, SC was 5.75 inches on 1/11/2011. Second biggest snowfall in that time period is less than 4 inches.

So in Summary, I'm not just jealous of Asheville, NC. I'm jealous of Columbia, Augusta, Atlanta, Macon, Charleston, Myrtle Beach, Birmingham, Athens, Columbus, Charlotte, etc.etc.etc.

 

Let me preface this by saying this would be true of anywhere, but I think it's very true of the upstate. If you haven't lived here, it's hard to appreciate just how strange the climate can be from county to county and town to town.

There is something about the western upstate (west of Spartanburg) and NEGA that makes it really hard to get a good snowfall, despite having several ingredients you would normally consider good for snowfall relative to the rest of the upstate. The counties of Oconne, Pickens, and Greenville are closest to the mountains, slightly higher elevations, among the farthest North in the state, and many times the coldest in the state. The elevaton changes cause some oddities and many outlying areas are significanly colder at night that the urban areas, even though those are generally colder than other urban areas of the state. Being in Easley, I am generally 5-10 degrees colder than Greenville on clear nights; just tonight I left DT at 39 degrees and it was 31 when I arrived at my house 20 minutes later. But this isnt true when systems come through. 

Despite these apparent advantages, the western upstate routinely fares worse in winter storms than eastern, and sometimes even southern, upstate locales. The onyl systems that come to mind that we have fared better on were Jan 87, Jan 88, and Jan 2011; all of which were cold snowsorms where we werent waiting on cold or timing. We also did better on March 93 (and Jan 96), but that was simply a placement factor, below us was mix to rain. Most other big storms for our area resulted in either a min for the wetsern upstate or a complete skip. This storm, last Dec storm, Jan last year, March 2017, Feb 2014, Feb 2004 (2 feet eastern upstate flurries western) 2003 (CLT 10 inches, western upstate 2-3), Jan 2000 (aka Carolina Crusher - flurries here), the list goes on and on, from year to year. We're too far north for southern sliders (1973, 1989, last year CHS coastal snow), too far West for coastal snows and Noreaters (generally), not high enough for Miller B and apps runners, too far west for CAD events without a crazy warm nose, too far east for TN valley snows that get MS/AL/GA/TN/NC. We typically get the most rainfall throughout the year due to mtn proximity, but suffer dryslots in winter setups. Were typically colder/cooler 95% of the time but suffer warmnoses worse than anybody. Look at a list of largest snowfalls in SC history and Greenville/Pickens/Oconee cities are behind. Rock Hill, Florence, Columbia, Spartanburg, Gaffney have all had larger snowfalls, including many smaller towns across the state. Heck, even MYB had like 12-14 form the 89 storm. 

Here are a couple reasons why I think all this is true. We have taller mtns on the NNE, N, NW, W, and even WWS. This creates a lower lying pocket ( though still higher than the rest of the upstate) that makes it very difficult for CAD and CAA to penetrate. CAA coming over the mtns either results in downslope warming, or skips over us to other points in the upstate outside the eddy area the mtns create (similar to the eddy effect in a river except here the air skips over the immediate lee, cooling areas further away from the pocket). In CAD situations lke this last one; the cold takes too long to work this far SW (or never does) but is colder in eastern upstate, and for longer, so they get more snow. In Miller Bs we have too much downslope warming and the darn warmnose, that is much worse here than N,NE, or East of us. We also are in the perfect min area for many coastal transfer setups- we lose the energy from the original low as it approaches and the coastal low takes over. So we don't get as much as areas further west because of the loss of energy, but then we miss out on the energy from the new coastal low as well, that places farther east get in on. And within the western upstate are areas that perform even worse realtive to the rest of it; with Clemson being one of them.

This is a great place to live for many reasons, but it is an incredibly frustrating place to live for winter weather lovers, even compared to the rest of the upstate, let alone NC.    

[DeepSouthSC]

6 hours ago, Waiting on snow said:

No CAE has the honor of being the epic screwzone. They haven't had snow at all in 5 years.

CAE can be somewhat of a screwzone, but some of this stuff is overplayed.  Columbia has had snow in the past 5 years.  There's been snow (nothing measurable) a couple times during the past two winters.  It's going on 5 years since Columbia has had any measurable snow, though.  

[DeepSouthSC]

2 hours ago, Orangeburgwx said:

 

He said in the last FIVE years burrel... Hell, I get more snow than CAE

You may have gotten more last winter.  But on average or say in the past 10 years........  Not at all.  

[Iceagewhereartthou]

Is there a good site showing a detailed history of CAE snowfall? Their NOAA site only has the monthly CF6 info for the past five years but I don't see anything beyond that or an overview of monthly historical snowfall. The GSP NOAA site has historical monthly snowfall charts for AVL, CLT, and GSP. 

[DeepSouthSC]

11 minutes ago, Iceagewhereartthou said:

Is there a good site showing a detailed history of CAE snowfall? Their NOAA site only has the monthly CF6 info for the past five years but I don't see anything beyond that or an overview of monthly historical snowfall. The GSP NOAA site has historical monthly snowfall charts for AVL, CLT, and GSP. 

I'm kinda familiar with several timeframes and dates, but gonna hit the hay.  I may be able to help guide you.

[Iceagewhereartthou]

7 minutes ago, DeepSouthSC said:

I'm kinda familiar with several timeframes and dates, but gonna hit the hay.  I may be able to help guide you.

Ok, thanks. I would be interested to see a more detailed history. Here is a link for the top ten snowfalls.

https://www.weather.gov/cae/Snowfall_Total_Records_cor.html

[WarmNose]

While It sucks being just south of 85 in the upstate, we do at least get a couple inches when places throughout NC get absolutely smoked. It could be worse. A little further to my south is Greenwood SC and their climo is probably as bad or worse than Miami Florida

[southernskimmer]

[Disco Lemonade]

6 minutes ago, southernskimmer said:

Just missed me 

[burrel2]

20 hours ago, YetAnotherRDUGuy said:

I'm sorry man. I had no idea.

I don't pretend to be an expert on SC climo, but I know enough to be genuinely surprised by this.

Not even Feb 2014?? Actually I took a quick glance at that, and it looks like that was E of you.

Nor Jan 96?

Not even 93?

Ugh

 

Nope, 3 inches of slop in 93, and a little under 3 inches in 96.

Oddly enough the 2nd biggest snowfall I have ever measured was 4 inches on the nose and it was a dinky clipper system that hit at daybreak in the late 90's. I got maxima'd under a little band for a couple hours and picked up 4 inches while most other places in the upstate got an inch or two. I was living in Walhalla at the time for this storm, Clemson only got an inch or so.

For that event, I can name you 20 events where we have gotten absolutely screwed. The two classic examples of places due South of here getting way more snow than I've ever seen would be February 2004, March 1, 2009, and Feb 2010.  

February 2004 probably stung the worst of them all.  I got a freaking DUSTING from that storm...

[burrel2]

And yea... February 2014 sucked just as bad every other storm here.

[Waiting on snow]

32 minutes ago, burrel2 said:

And yea... February 2014 sucked just as bad every other storm here.

That area definitely appears to have it's own micro climate. I still would rather live there than CAE. Going 5+ years without measurable snow, relentless heat and humidity, 95-100 every single day from June through September. Even lines of thunderstorms break up before reaching CAE. Not the place to be unless heat and humidity is your thing.

[Tigerchick224]

I grew up in the lower part of the Upstate (Clinton, Laurens, Greenwood) and I remember growing up and getting shafted compared to the Northern counties. Now I live in the northern Upstate (Taylors) and though we definitely get more measurable snow events, since living up here I’ve seen counties to our north and east rack up (not so much to our west, because the western Upstate has some sort of all consuming snow pit where snow goes to die). I know I should be grateful for what we get, but at the same time I’m so salty about it.

[Tigerchick224]

Nope, 3 inches of slop in 93, and a little under 3 inches in 96.
Oddly enough the 2nd biggest snowfall I have ever measured was 4 inches on the nose and it was a dinky clipper system that hit at daybreak in the late 90's. I got maxima'd under a little band for a couple hours and picked up 4 inches while most other places in the upstate got an inch or two. I was living in Walhalla at the time for this storm, Clemson only got an inch or so.
For that event, I can name you 20 events where we have gotten absolutely screwed. The two classic examples of places due South of here getting way more snow than I've ever seen would be February 2004, March 1, 2009, and Feb 2010.  
February 2004 probably stung the worst of them all.  I got a freaking DUSTING from that storm...

Ohhhhh that map hurts. I’d be so mad!


.

[AfewUniversesBelowNormal]

4 hours ago, southernskimmer said:

Good sign.

[YetAnotherRDUGuy]

4 hours ago, burrel2 said:

Nope, 3 inches of slop in 93, and a little under 3 inches in 96.

Oddly enough the 2nd biggest snowfall I have ever measured was 4 inches on the nose and it was a dinky clipper system that hit at daybreak in the late 90's. I got maxima'd under a little band for a couple hours and picked up 4 inches while most other places in the upstate got an inch or two. I was living in Walhalla at the time for this storm, Clemson only got an inch or so.

For that event, I can name you 20 events where we have gotten absolutely screwed. The two classic examples of places due South of here getting way more snow than I've ever seen would be February 2004, March 1, 2009, and Feb 2010.  

February 2004 probably stung the worst of them all.  I got a freaking DUSTING from that storm...

This map is absolutely brutal. Spartanburg gets 10-12, while Greenville gets 2-4..

I see the dusting-2 you referenced.

I'd be bitter as sin if that happened to me. Much less multiple events. I hereby walk back my earlier comment on whining, and now realize I have no idea how SC climo works in the upstate.

[Iceagewhereartthou]

1 minute ago, YetAnotherRDUGuy said:

This map is absolutely brutal. Spartanburg gets 10-12, while Greenville gets 2-4..

I see the dusting-2 you referenced.

I'd be bitter as sin if that happened to me. Much less multiple events. I hereby walk back my earlier comment on whining, and now realize I have no idea how SC climo works in the upstate.

And again, this is how it happens over and over in the upstate. This is the norm. Pretty frustrating. 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

4 hours ago, burrel2 said:

And yea... February 2014 sucked just as bad every other storm here.

With this one, you see not only the west/east cuttoff, but also the north/south downslopping cuttoff. It's amazing what a one thousand foot rise will do (Gville to Hendersonville for example). And you don't often see the same drastic cuttoff in the NC piedmont; sometimes, but not as often or pronounced.

[superjames1992]

Merry Christmas.  Clipper love. 

I’m all-in. 

[KChuck]

4 hours ago, superjames1992 said:

Merry Christmas.  Clipper love. 

I’m all-in. 

I'll pass. 5 hour trip to Williamsburg scheduled the 26th. Otherwise I'd be in.

[NorthernUpstateSC]

On 12/11/2018 at 11:05 PM, Iceagewhereartthou said:

Let me preface this by saying this would be true of anywhere, but I think it's very true of the upstate. If you haven't lived here, it's hard to appreciate just how strange the climate can be from county to county and town to town.

There is something about the western upstate (west of Spartanburg) and NEGA that makes it really hard to get a good snowfall, despite having several ingredients you would normally consider good for snowfall relative to the rest of the upstate. The counties of Oconne, Pickens, and Greenville are closest to the mountains, slightly higher elevations, among the farthest North in the state, and many times the coldest in the state. The elevaton changes cause some oddities and many outlying areas are significanly colder at night that the urban areas, even though those are generally colder than other urban areas of the state. Being in Easley, I am generally 5-10 degrees colder than Greenville on clear nights; just tonight I left DT at 39 degrees and it was 31 when I arrived at my house 20 minutes later. But this isnt true when systems come through. 

Despite these apparent advantages, the western upstate routinely fares worse in winter storms than eastern, and sometimes even southern, upstate locales. The onyl systems that come to mind that we have fared better on were Jan 87, Jan 88, and Jan 2011; all of which were cold snowsorms where we werent waiting on cold or timing. We also did better on March 93 (and Jan 96), but that was simply a placement factor, below us was mix to rain. Most other big storms for our area resulted in either a min for the wetsern upstate or a complete skip. This storm, last Dec storm, Jan last year, March 2017, Feb 2014, Feb 2004 (2 feet eastern upstate flurries western) 2003 (CLT 10 inches, western upstate 2-3), Jan 2000 (aka Carolina Crusher - flurries here), the list goes on and on, from year to year. We're too far north for southern sliders (1973, 1989, last year CHS coastal snow), too far West for coastal snows and Noreaters (generally), not high enough for Miller B and apps runners, too far west for CAD events without a crazy warm nose, too far east for TN valley snows that get MS/AL/GA/TN/NC. We typically get the most rainfall throughout the year due to mtn proximity, but suffer dryslots in winter setups. Were typically colder/cooler 95% of the time but suffer warmnoses worse than anybody. Look at a list of largest snowfalls in SC history and Greenville/Pickens/Oconee cities are behind. Rock Hill, Florence, Columbia, Spartanburg, Gaffney have all had larger snowfalls, including many smaller towns across the state. Heck, even MYB had like 12-14 form the 89 storm. 

Here are a couple reasons why I think all this is true. We have taller mtns on the NNE, N, NW, W, and even WWS. This creates a lower lying pocket ( though still higher than the rest of the upstate) that makes it very difficult for CAD and CAA to penetrate. CAA coming over the mtns either results in downslope warming, or skips over us to other points in the upstate outside the eddy area the mtns create (similar to the eddy effect in a river except here the air skips over the immediate lee, cooling areas further away from the pocket). In CAD situations lke this last one; the cold takes too long to work this far SW (or never does) but is colder in eastern upstate, and for longer, so they get more snow. In Miller Bs we have too much downslope warming and the darn warmnose, that is much worse here than N,NE, or East of us. We also are in the perfect min area for many coastal transfer setups- we lose the energy from the original low as it approaches and the coastal low takes over. So we don't get as much as areas further west because of the loss of energy, but then we miss out on the energy from the new coastal low as well, that places farther east get in on. And within the western upstate are areas that perform even worse realtive to the rest of it; with Clemson being one of them.

This is a great place to live for many reasons, but it is an incredibly frustrating place to live for winter weather lovers, even compared to the rest of the upstate, let alone NC.    

Ice age, I live north of six mile just south of hwy. 11 and you are absolutely correct! This area of the upstate gets screwed so much when it comes to winter weather it will make your head spin. So hard to take when you just a few miles away. Just like sunday and in almost all events for example the travelers rest area, where it was covered in snow and ice and you got next to nothing. This happens all the freakin time!!! And, it just happened here again and was even more local just last weekend. We got maybe 2-3 inches of snow and sleet and all was pretty much gone by late sunday while my daughter in pickens sent me a picture late that day and they still had close to 5 inches of snow on the ground. It really is crazy the way the mountains effect our local eco-climate. I have heard references to our area being called the "Thermal Belt" in the past. I asked Lookout several years ago to explain what happens over and over again and why the warm air bubble seems to always parks its sorry behind over us during most winter events and he explained it to a tee:

This is my lookout screw zone bubble in full effect. For those that aren't aware, it's when high pressure is northwest of the mountains which initially causes downslope flow and warming ahead of the system while at the same time causes an area of convergence (northeast winds over the upstate and northwest winds over ga) in the upper savannah river valley in the low levels and sometimes even as high as 850mb...which causes this area to be the very last place to get low level cold air advection. It can be absolutely maddening and can seriously screw this area...and it's happened a number of times. Some of my most painful memories of screw jobs involve heavy rain at 35 or 36 degrees while it was snowing to the east, north, and west..and even southwest...and a bubble of warm air up to 850mb sitting over me that never moved or was overcame. In order to avoid this, this area needs to have more high pressure to the northeast and northeast low level flow sooner ahead of the system or a stronger push of cold air from the northwest before.

[Iceagewhereartthou]

5 hours ago, NorthernUpstateSC said:

Ice age, I live north of six mile just south of hwy. 11 and you are absolutely correct! This area of the upstate gets screwed so much when it comes to winter weather it will make your head spin. So hard to take when you just a few miles away. Just like sunday and in almost all events for example the travelers rest area, where it was covered in snow and ice and you got next to nothing. This happens all the freakin time!!! And, it just happened here again and was even more local just last weekend. We got maybe 2-3 inches of snow and sleet and all was pretty much gone by late sunday while my daughter in pickens sent me a picture late that day and they still had close to 5 inches of snow on the ground. It really is crazy the way the mountains effect our local eco-climate. I have heard references to our area being called the "Thermal Belt" in the past. I asked Lookout several years ago to explain what happens over and over again and why the warm air bubble seems to always parks its sorry behind over us during most winter events and he explained it to a tee:

This is my lookout screw zone bubble in full effect. For those that aren't aware, it's when high pressure is northwest of the mountains which initially causes downslope flow and warming ahead of the system while at the same time causes an area of convergence (northeast winds over the upstate and northwest winds over ga) in the upper savannah river valley in the low levels and sometimes even as high as 850mb...which causes this area to be the very last place to get low level cold air advection. It can be absolutely maddening and can seriously screw this area...and it's happened a number of times. Some of my most painful memories of screw jobs involve heavy rain at 35 or 36 degrees while it was snowing to the east, north, and west..and even southwest...and a bubble of warm air up to 850mb sitting over me that never moved or was overcame. In order to avoid this, this area needs to have more high pressure to the northeast and northeast low level flow sooner ahead of the system or a stronger push of cold air from the northwest before.

Yeah; I vaguely remember that conversation with Lookout, he knows only too well. He's absolutely correct; we have to have a stronger high, or a high that comes in sooner and locks in for CAD senarios, or the cold takes too long to get here and then loses out too quickly to the WAA. Those "cold in place" setups (Jan 88, Jan 2011) work well for us but those seem to only happen decades apart so we're not due for another 20 years or so...! Guess we'll have to settle for our penny and nickle (we don't get dime) events here. 

[Waiting on snow]

On 12/11/2018 at 11:43 PM, DeepSouthSC said:

CAE can be somewhat of a screwzone, but some of this stuff is overplayed.  Columbia has had snow in the past 5 years.  There's been snow (nothing measurable) a couple times during the past two winters.  It's going on 5 years since Columbia has had any measurable snow, though.  

If it wasn't measurable snow does it really count? I don't count it. Reality is CAE has only had 3 winters of the past 15 produce an inch or more total for the whole winter. Absolutely pitiful even for CAE. I stand by my statement that is the biggest screwzone in the state. At least further south you pretty much know you're not getting anything. The upstate is guaranteed something every year, even the western upstate. CAE is always close enough to the action to keep Hope's alive but fails miserably in the end.