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January Medium/Long Range Discussion


WinterWxLuvr

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5 minutes ago, high risk said:

The large EMCWF/GFS diffs are evident as early as 72 hours in.    FWIW, the system coming into Oregon at that time, which becomes the key player, looks similar to the GFS in the NAM and NAM parallel.

You can see the difference here, IMO.

The energy is already there at 24 hours.  On the gfs it manages to close off and then escape that black hole of death behind it (look at the current water vapor loop of the pacific).  On the euro it seems to get sucked in and there's nothing to create our storm.IMG_8503.GIFIMG_8504.GIFIMG_8505.GIFIMG_8506.GIF

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30 minutes ago, Bob Chill said:

That's not where the issue lies. It's what happens between 72-96. Compare the GFS to the Euro. The euro didn't change much from 0z during this period. We need a strong and discreet shortwave and it gets booted like a paper football out to see with no organization. 

 

gfs_z500a_us_17.png

 

 

 

ecmwf_z500a_us_5.png

 

Look at the spacing too. Not just the energy out west is wrong but on the gfs wave one is already exiting the east coast but on the euro it's back over the Ohio valley. The second wave is still back over Utah on the gfs and ejecting from Colorado (what's left of it) on the euro. There is no spacing. Most of the energy from the second wave just gets absorbed into the first but it's a strung out mess. That's not even close to being anything. It's a timing difference between the two that's the main difference. Euro leaves no breathing room while the gfs is spaced 12-24 hours further apart. 

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4 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Look at the spacing too. Not just the energy out west is wrong but on the gfs wave one is already exiting the east coast but on the euro it's back over the Ohio valley. The second wave is still back over Utah on the gfs and ejecting from Colorado (what's left of it) on the euro. There is no spacing. Most of the energy from the second wave just gets absorbed into the first but it's a strung out mess. That's not even close to being anything. It's a timing difference between the two that's the main difference. Euro leaves no breathing room while the gfs is spaced 12-24 hours further apart. 

fwiw http://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/gfsp/2017010206/gfsp_z500a_us_17.png

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Fwiw today's Ukie at 120 hrs has low pressure in the northern Gulf and south of NS at 144, with the upper levels turning more south/north oriented off the East Coast from 120 to 144. Low is probably still too far south & east for the mid Atl, but at least it shows some type of low pressure/storm strengthening in the vacinity of the Southeast and East Coast (as opposed to little to nothing from the Euro).

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For me, at 18z if the energy is fully on shore at 78, then the gfs holds.  If it's being stretched back into the pacific, then it may trend toward the euro.  FWIW, the NAM shows it being tugged on more like the euro.  

Im not sure my take is correct here, but it seems pretty obvious.

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15 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Excellent animation. Also notice the 0z had the furthest east location of wave one. So the greatest spacing. 6z least spacing due and 12z a compromise. The end result was set at those points. 

WPC from their 11am EFD(before the 12z suite):

TWO CAMPS OF SOLUTIONS EMERGE AT THE START OF DAY 3/THU...WITH THE 00Z GFS MORE PROGRESSIVE WITH SHORTWAVE TROUGHS CROSSING CENTRAL CANADA...THUS PRODUCING MORE SEPARATION WITH THE RESIDUAL TROUGH ACROSS THE NORTHWEST...AND THEREFORE ALLOWING THE NORTHWEST TO REMAIN UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE TROUGH LONGER. THE OTHER CAMP OF SOLUTIONS IS REPRESENTED BY THE 00Z ECMWF WHICH IS SLOWER WITH THE CENTRAL CANADA TROUGH...THUS ALLOWING IT TO SLIGHTLY PHASE WITH THE RESIDUAL TROUGH OVER THE NORTHWEST...WHICH THEN ALLOWS THE TROUGH TO EXIT THE NORTHWEST MORE QUICKLY. WHILE THE ENSEMBLE MEMBER SPREAD IS HIGH...THEREFORE INDICATING LOW CONFIDENCE...RUN-TO-RUN CONTINUITY HAS BEEN HIGHER WITH THE ECMWF-SCENARIO...WITH THE 06Z GFS AND 00Z PARALLEL GFS LEANING STRONGLY IN THE ECMWF DIRECTION. COMBINE THE 00Z CANADIAN...AND ITS LOOKING MORE AND MORE LIKE THE 00Z GFS IS THE ODD MODEL OUT.

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20 minutes ago, C.A.P.E. said:

WPC from their 11am EFD(before the 12z suite):

TWO CAMPS OF SOLUTIONS EMERGE AT THE START OF DAY 3/THU...WITH THE 00Z GFS MORE PROGRESSIVE WITH SHORTWAVE TROUGHS CROSSING CENTRAL CANADA...THUS PRODUCING MORE SEPARATION WITH THE RESIDUAL TROUGH ACROSS THE NORTHWEST...AND THEREFORE ALLOWING THE NORTHWEST TO REMAIN UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE TROUGH LONGER. THE OTHER CAMP OF SOLUTIONS IS REPRESENTED BY THE 00Z ECMWF WHICH IS SLOWER WITH THE CENTRAL CANADA TROUGH...THUS ALLOWING IT TO SLIGHTLY PHASE WITH THE RESIDUAL TROUGH OVER THE NORTHWEST...WHICH THEN ALLOWS THE TROUGH TO EXIT THE NORTHWEST MORE QUICKLY. WHILE THE ENSEMBLE MEMBER SPREAD IS HIGH...THEREFORE INDICATING LOW CONFIDENCE...RUN-TO-RUN CONTINUITY HAS BEEN HIGHER WITH THE ECMWF-SCENARIO...WITH THE 06Z GFS AND 00Z PARALLEL GFS LEANING STRONGLY IN THE ECMWF DIRECTION. COMBINE THE 00Z CANADIAN...AND ITS LOOKING MORE AND MORE LIKE THE 00Z GFS IS THE ODD MODEL OUT.

And knowing how it usually goes when the twk models are that divergent...me thinks it's time to punt!

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6 minutes ago, Maestrobjwa said:

And knowing how it usually goes when the twk models are that divergent...me thinks it's time to punt!

Can't punt, have you seen the pattern coming after?  At least for the next 3 weeks or so. It may be 4th and 10 at our own 20 yard line, but there is one minute left and we're down 7 with no timeouts. Punting is not an option. 

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2 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Can't punt, have you seen the pattern coming after?  At least for the next 3 weeks or so. It may be 4th and 10 at our own 20 yard line, but there is one minute left and we're down 7 with no timeouts. Punting is not an option. 

The two best models in the world can't agree with only 5 days to go. I'm not willing to throw away 3 weeks on a long range forecast. 

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3 minutes ago, psuhoffman said:

Can't punt, have you seen the pattern coming after?  At least for the next 3 weeks or so. It may be 4th and 10 at our own 20 yard line, but there is one minute left and we're down 7 with no timeouts. Punting is not an option. 

Time for a Hail Mary? :)

I for one am not ready to bail on this. Still enough question marks in my mind to follow this to it's Bitter end.

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