NNE Winter Thread

[alex]

Hi All - another sugaring question. I tapped 9 maples; 3 seem to be dripping like a mofo, and the others don't seem to be doing much of anything at all. Is that normal or did I mess something up?

[mreaves]

1 minute ago, alex said:

Hi All - another sugaring question. I tapped 9 maples; 3 seem to be dripping like a mofo, and the others don't seem to be doing much of anything at all. Is that normal or did I mess something up?

First question, are you sure they weren't ash? lol  Seriously though, they can sometimes be hard to tell apart in winter.  It could also be their location, how much sun they get, the type of soil or any other of a hundred variables.  Here are a couple of links:

• http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/
• http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/FAQ.htm

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, tamarack said:

Still 32" at the stake this morning, down 14" from a week ago, a pretty steady 2"/day with a couple 3s.  However, the modest amount of puddles/runoff suggests more consolidation than melt.  Last Saturday's core measured 9.71" SWE in a 42" pack, meaning the snow was 23% water.  I'm guessing there's still over 9" SWE and the % is close to 30.  I think "ripe" begins when it passes 40%, so the snow still has some sponge capability.

Ha you had almost exactly what I had in last weeks snow survey at 1,500ft here.  9.75" water in 42" of snow.  Jeez that is remarkable.  

However depth was down to 27" vs your 32".  This mid-slope elevation of 1,500ft is hard to get to freeze up sometimes.  Cold all goes down into the village.  

[alex]

45 minutes ago, mreaves said:

First question, are you sure they weren't ash? lol  Seriously though, they can sometimes be hard to tell apart in winter.  It could also be their location, how much sun they get, the type of soil or any other of a hundred variables.  Here are a couple of links:

• http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/
• http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/FAQ.htm

Haha, thanks - nope, definitely maples. I tagged them in the fall when it was much easier to tell! That said the microclimate thing makes sense... it seems like the "flowing" ones are clustered in one area. Interesting. 

[mreaves]

Just now, alex said:

Haha, thanks - nope, definitely maples. I tagged them in the fall when it was much easier to tell!

When I was 15 or so, I had a small business of tapping trees and selling the sap to my high school ag program.  Needless to say, I did not have the foresight to mark the trees when species would have been apparent and ended up with several "dry" trees lol.

[alex]

2 minutes ago, mreaves said:

When I was 15 or so, I had a small business of tapping trees and selling the sap to my high school ag program.  Needless to say, I did not have the foresight to mark the trees when species would have been apparent and ended up with several "dry" trees lol.

I'm so new at this, I probably'd be tapping a pine tree if I hadn't marked them.  

[backedgeapproaching]

71 at DDH which is June 1st climo. 68F here and still full snow coverage in the yard  

[tamarack]

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Ha you had almost exactly what I had in last weeks snow survey at 1,500ft here.  9.75" water in 42" of snow.  Jeez that is remarkable.  

However depth was down to 27" vs your 32".  This mid-slope elevation of 1,500ft is hard to get to freeze up sometimes.  Cold all goes down into the village.  

That's really cool, and weird, as we got to the same place by almost totally different types of snow events. 

[J.Spin]

8 hours ago, J.Spin said:

I’ve added below the relevant BTV NWS forecast discussion for the upcoming snowfall potential tomorrow night.  Roger Hill’s thoughts in his WDEV broadcast this morning were a little more robust in the snowfall department, with mention of the potential for 3-5” across the higher elevations, and accumulation in all but the Champlain and Connecticut River Valleys.  The high elevation point forecast for Mt. Mansfield currently has 2-4” of snow in it, so a few inches at elevation seems like the general idea.

 

Area Forecast Discussion

National Weather Service Burlington VT

644 AM EST Fri Feb 24 2017

 

.SHORT TERM /SATURDAY THROUGH SUNDAY/...

As of 428 AM EST Friday...Negative tilt mid-level trough and sfc bndry shift east of our region after 03Z Sunday, with strong low-level CAA and a wly wind shift following FROPA. Should see rain end as a period of wet snow or snow showers, especially across the higher terrain during Saturday night, with temperatures falling into the upr 20s to lower 30s by daybreak Sunday. Some anafrontal character to the frontal zone per NWP time-height cross sections, and as such, should see 1- 3" snowfall across the higher summits late Saturday night as vertical temperature profiles cool sufficiently to support snow as the p-type. Even in valley locations, may see precipitation end as isold/sct snow showers, but with little or no accumulation expected.

 

It looks like the BTV NWS has bumped up their thoughts on tomorrow night’s snow a bit as of this afternoon’s update:

 

Area Forecast Discussion

National Weather Service Burlington VT

350 PM EST Fri Feb 24 2017

 

.NEAR TERM /THROUGH SATURDAY NIGHT/...

As of 317 PM EST Friday...Behind the front for Saturday night, temperatures fall rapidly with strong low-level cold air advection and wind shift developing where precipitation lingering across portions of central/northern Vermont will end as a period of rain/snow in the valleys and wet snow in the higher elevations where several inches of accumulation are likely. A dusting to perhaps and inch is possible at the valley floor. Lows return to more seasonal values ranging through the 20s by early Sunday morning.

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, tamarack said:

That's really cool, and weird, as we got to the same place by almost totally different types of snow events. 

Yeah and I don't have the base area totals on my home lap top but I would bet the Barnes Camp stake got there with a bit more total snowfall too...lower daily average too likely.  Haven't had any single setting synoptic 20-inchers there, though some "cycles" might get there (snow and liquid equivalent) over a few days.

[#NoPoles]

5 hours ago, alex said:

I'm so new at this, I probably'd be tapping a pine tree if I hadn't marked them.  

winter ID is not as hard as you think...red maples have clusters of rounded red buds. Sugar maple buds don't cluster like red maple buds, and sugar maple buds are brown instead of red and are shaped like pointed tridents.

[CoastalWx]

Hey PF, Stowe is on my list of places to go in March prior to the birth of my daughter and all hell breaking loose. :). My wife is limited as to what she can do for physical activity, but I would love to visit. Any suggestions? Of course I fully expect you to take me on a tour via snow Cat.

[mreaves]

52 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Hey PF, Stowe is on my list of places to go in March prior to the birth of my daughter and all hell breaking loose. :). My wife is limited as to what she can do for physical activity, but I would love to visit. Any suggestions? Of course I fully expect you to take me on a tour via snow Cat.

Not Stowe but I'd take you snowmobiling, if winter has returned that is. 

[#NoPoles]

2 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

Hey PF, Stowe is on my list of places to go in March prior to the birth of my daughter and all hell breaking loose. :). My wife is limited as to what she can do for physical activity, but I would love to visit. Any suggestions? Of course I fully expect you to take me on a tour via snow Cat.

A girl weenie! Congrats!!! I love her already! 

[mahk_webstah]

6 minutes ago, #NoPoles said:

A girl weenie! Congrats!!! I love her already! 

I hope she can handle man-snow.

[wxmanmitch]

4 hours ago, #NoPoles said:

winter ID is not as hard as you think...red maples have clusters of rounded red buds. Sugar maple buds don't cluster like red maple buds, and sugar maple buds are brown instead of red and are shaped like pointed tridents.

I actually think winter tree ID is easier in some respects. Nothing is easier than IDing White Oak at this time of year as they tend to retain their leaves and their distinctive light grey bark is a dead giveaway. The same can be said of Beech and some other oak species like Pin Oak.

I wonder if I could grow a White Oak up in VT above 2K as they're my favorite species. They fade out at about 1K around here (up to ~1.4K on SW exposures), while Red Oak goes to about ~1.7K (up to a bit above 2K on SW exposures), so it would be a stretch, especially since my location faces ENE. 

[#NoPoles]

2 hours ago, wxmanmitch said:

I actually think winter tree ID is easier in some respects. Nothing is easier than IDing White Oak at this time of year as they tend to retain their leaves and their distinctive light grey bark is a dead giveaway. The same can be said of Beech and some other oak species like Pin Oak.

I wonder if I could grow a White Oak up in VT above 2K as they're my favorite species. They fade out at about 1K around here (up to ~1.4K on SW exposures), while Red Oak goes to about ~1.7K (up to a bit above 2K on SW exposures), so it would be a stretch, especially since my location faces ENE. 

I think you should try growing a white oak...somebody from NJ was trying to grow a red wood in their back yard. 

The only season that is challenging for ID is during leaf out. I learned winter ID and I find it easier than when a tree is full foliage.

[tamarack]

13 hours ago, #NoPoles said:

winter ID is not as hard as you think...red maples have clusters of rounded red buds. Sugar maple buds don't cluster like red maple buds, and sugar maple buds are brown instead of red and are shaped like pointed tridents.

These days many sugary operators tap red maples and sugar maples with little preference.  With reverse osmosis used by all the big producers, the goal is becoming "more gallons of sap" rather than high sugar content.  The easiest key that sets maples apart from most other species is that their twigs branch out opposite from each other rather than alternate.  Ash is opposite as well, but its twigs are about 3X thicker than those of the maples.  If sorting among the maples is desired and the nearest buds are 40 feet up (and you don't own good binocs), red maple branches usually end with linear pairs of branchlets from a spike-like branch (maybe think of the map symbol for RR tracks) while sugar maple branchlets are "bifurcated", each branchlet producing its own set of branchlets.

I wonder if I could grow a White Oak up in VT above 2K as they're my favorite species. They fade out at about 1K around here (up to ~1.4K on SW exposures), while Red Oak goes to about ~1.7K (up to a bit above 2K on SW exposures), so it would be a stretch, especially since my location faces ENE. 

The main issue with challenging the northerly limit of a tree's natural range is late frost killing the new buds/leaves.  A hillside location, away from the slope's top or bottom, would be the best place to try, and perhaps with a few evergreens nearby (but not to the south) that will moderate radiational cooling.  Another option would be burr oak, a member of the white oak group that is considered hardy to zone 2.  It's the prairie pioneer species from MN well into Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

Edit:  May be worth mentioning some successful way-north plantings in my area.  There are several shagbark hickories along Route 27 on Mile Hill in New Sharon.  It's northernmost natural occurrence is along Route 1 in Woolwich (midcoast) and next is on Mt. Agamenticus in southernmost Maine.  There is also a tulip poplar on High Street in Farmington, and I think its natural range ends in SNE.  Not much UHI effect in a town of Farmington's size, but it's not zero either.

[J.Spin]

I had time this morning and figured that in this transitionary period with potential flooding, more data would be helpful, so I got a snowpack core.  This morning’s core revealed 2.07” of liquid in the snowpack, down from the 4.99” in Monday’s core.  Today’s core was a piece of cake compared to Monday, since the snowpack is so much more malleable now.  If I have time I can try to get a core tomorrow to see what transpires over the next 24 hours.

[ApacheTrout]

Oscillating between 67 and 69F.  Rooting for 70F and the first margarita.

[Damage In Tolland]

11 hours ago, wxmanmitch said:

I actually think winter tree ID is easier in some respects. Nothing is easier than IDing White Oak at this time of year as they tend to retain their leaves and their distinctive light grey bark is a dead giveaway. The same can be said of Beech and some other oak species like Pin Oak.

I wonder if I could grow a White Oak up in VT above 2K as they're my favorite species. They fade out at about 1K around here (up to ~1.4K on SW exposures), while Red Oak goes to about ~1.7K (up to a bit above 2K on SW exposures), so it would be a stretch, especially since my location faces ENE. 

You have to be the only person in history that wants to plant any type of Oak. They are filthy, dirty, pain in the azz trees. Dropping crap year round, ruining lawns

[eyewall]

If the flood forecast is correct there should be some fun shots in Winooski at the hydro dam tomorrow.

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[tamarack]

1 hour ago, Damage In Tolland said:

You have to be the only person in history that wants to plant any type of Oak. They are filthy, dirty, pain in the azz trees. Dropping crap year round, ruining lawns

Also valuable timber trees and a mainstay of wildlife food, so most plantings (not uncommon well southwest of New England) are in the woods rather than around houses.

[eyewall]

71F at BTV

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[Lava Rock]

71F at BTV

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Just crazy.

[powderfreak]

That BTV temp is astonishing.  140 years of records and that temp is 9 degrees warmer than it's ever been in February before this year.  

Lots of wind here and 58F at MVL.  Got home and the patio furniture was in the yard.  Saw MVL 25-30mph with gusts to 40mph probably did it.

[eyewall]

The line has no shelf that I can see but it is crossing the lake as of this post

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[wxeyeNH]

63.5F!   High 2 days ago was 64.9F   Below are 2 pictures taken about 6 hours apart.  The pack is melting but it sure is taking a long time.  Water is pouring down the hill into the pond.  It is coming up fast.  Compare the left edge, perhaps up 2 feet?   Now we look west for this evenings action, or not.

Amazing temp record for Burlington.  Wonder if we could ever break a February all time cold record by 9F lower than previous?  Climate change or just a rogue warm wave?  

 

[powderfreak]

22 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

Hey PF, Stowe is on my list of places to go in March prior to the birth of my daughter and all hell breaking loose. :). My wife is limited as to what she can do for physical activity, but I would love to visit. Any suggestions? Of course I fully expect you to take me on a tour via snow Cat.

Hey dude forgot to reply!  Congrats man I didn't know you guys were expecting!  

We should talk on Facebook or PM...like the price point you are looking for and stuff like that.  Plenty of options but I wish this thaw didn't happen.  You need to see it in deep winter haha.

Topnotch Resort and Spa is always up on my list because I used to work there and think the facilities are solid, families enjoy the pools and it's got some great views of the mountain from around the property.  It can be pricy though, usually second to Stowe Mountain Lodge.  Though Stowe Mountain Lodge is fun because it's at 1500ft in the base area and the weather is much more exciting haha.

Trapp Family Lodge would be my next choice at 1,400ft on a hill, also with excellent views just not of Mansfield.  Facilities are a little more dated but there's history there (Sound of Music family) and the new beer hall and brewery is pretty cool.  Stowe and Waterbury area is a beer mecca now, your son would probably like a visit to the Ben and Jerry factory too for great ice cream and a tour.

[CoastalWx]

11 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Hey dude forgot to reply!  Congrats man I didn't know you guys were expecting!  

We should talk on Facebook or PM...like the price point you are looking for and stuff like that.  Plenty of options but I wish this thaw didn't happen.  You need to see it in deep winter haha.

Topnotch Resort and Spa is always up on my list because I used to work there and think the facilities are solid, families enjoy the pools and it's got some great views of the mountain from around the property.  It can be pricy though, usually second to Stowe Mountain Lodge.  Though Stowe Mountain Lodge is fun because it's at 1500ft in the base area and the weather is much more exciting haha.

Trapp Family Lodge would be my next choice at 1,400ft on a hill, also with excellent views just not of Mansfield.  Facilities are a little more dated but there's history there (Sound of Music family) and the new beer hall and brewery is pretty cool.  Stowe and Waterbury area is a beer mecca now, your son would probably like a visit to the Ben and Jerry factory too for great ice cream and a tour.

Ha, will do. I'll hit you up on FB IM or something. It's just a matter of how much we can do in her condition. I know what I would like lol. Thanks man.