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October 2016 Discussion/Obs


Rtd208

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The big -AO drop has limited the warmth potential to start October around the region. Instead of the recent months +3 to +5 temp departures, we are

running smaller positive departures through October 11th. This has been a less warm is the new cool type of pattern.

NYC...+0.9

LGA...+1.5

JFK....+0.3

ISP....+1.4

BDR..+1.5

EWR..+0.9

 

ao.obs.gif

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, bluewave said:

The big -AO drop has limited the warmth potential to start October around the region. Instead of the recent months +3 to +5 temp departures, we are

running smaller positive departures through October 11th. This has been a less warm is the new cool type of pattern.

NYC...+0.9

LGA...+1.5

JFK....+0.3

ISP....+1.4

BDR..+1.5

EWR..+0.9

 

ao.obs.gif

 

 

 

 

the forecast has some members even lower in the long run...Some nao members are way negative in the long run...last year the ao went negative around the same time as this year only not as negative...when November came around the ao shot up to a very positive +4 a month later...we have to wait until November to see if this -AO pattern continues...

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12 minutes ago, uncle W said:

the forecast has some members even lower in the long run...Some nao members are way negative in the long run...last year the ao went negative around the same time as this year only not as negative...when November came around the ao shot up to a very positive +4 a month later...we have to wait until November to see if this -AO pattern continues...

NYC snowfall following October -3.0 daily or lower AO drops. 7 out of 10 winters followed with near to above normal snowfall. Only 3 duds.

 

2014...-3.993...50.3"

2012...-3.195...26.1" Feb blizzard focus Suffolk

2009...-3.415...51.4"

2006...-3.192...12.4" blocking and cold came in Feb but Valentines Day was ice instead of snow

2003...-3.297...42.6"

2002...-5.098...49.3"

1991...-3.044...12.6"...

1984...-3.087...24.1"

1981....-3.076...24.6"

1979....-3.471...12.8" big MA season due to suppression...38.6" Richmond VA.

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In 1966 the ao was almost -3 on 10/22 and never went way positive in November and then dropped to below -4 on 12/13...That winter had a negative ao at the beginning and a positive one the second half when 41" of snow fell...it was positive after February 8th until 3/26...

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26 minutes ago, bluewave said:

NYC snowfall following October -3.0 daily or lower AO drops. 7 out of 10 winters followed with near to above normal snowfall. Only 3 duds.

 

2014...-3.993...50.3"

2012...-3.195...26.1" Feb blizzard focus Suffolk

2009...-3.415...51.4"

2006...-3.192...12.4" blocking and cold came in Feb but Valentines Day was ice instead of snow

2003...-3.297...42.6"

2002...-5.098...49.3"

1991...-3.044...12.6"...

1984...-3.087...24.1"

1981....-3.076...24.6"

1979....-3.471...12.8" big MA season due to

6 minutes ago, uncle W said:

In 1966 the ao was almost -3 on 10/22 and never went way positive in November and then dropped to below -4 on 12/13...That winter had a negative ao at the beginning and a positive one the second half when 41" of snow fell...it was positive after February 8th until 3/26...

Do I assume it was a front loaded winter,  or were there events spread across the winter months. That is very interesting info.   

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14 minutes ago, uncle W said:

In 1966 the ao was almost -3 on 10/22 and never went way positive in November and then dropped to below -4 on 12/13...That winter had a negative ao at the beginning and a positive one the second half when 41" of snow fell...it was positive after February 8th until 3/26...

October 1960, 1976, and 1977 also came close.

1960...-2.4...54.7"

1976...-2.4...24.5"

1977..-2.3....50.7"

 

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50 minutes ago, bluewave said:

NYC snowfall following October -3.0 daily or lower AO drops. 7 out of 10 winters followed with near to above normal snowfall. Only 3 duds.

 

2014...-3.993...50.3"

2012...-3.195...26.1" Feb blizzard focus Suffolk

2009...-3.415...51.4"

2006...-3.192...12.4" blocking and cold came in Feb but Valentines Day was ice instead of snow

2003...-3.297...42.6"

2002...-5.098...49.3"

1991...-3.044...12.6"...

1984...-3.087...24.1"

1981....-3.076...24.6"

1979....-3.471...12.8" big MA season due to suppression...38.6" Richmond VA.

All encouraging information. The state of the AO in December could provide insight. All of the duds from the above sample saw strongly positive December AO figures (+1.000 or above monthly averages). The sample size is small, so caution is still in order.

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26 minutes ago, frd said:

 

when the AO went to -4 on 12/13/66 the pattern went from record warmth to wet snow and rain...my memory is a little vague but between Dec- 13th-27th NYC had three coastal lows with wet snow and rain...snow to rain to snow...Christmas eve heavy snow and sleet...post Christmas snow to heavy rain...January was mild with temperatures near 70 the second half of January...The AO was a little negative on and off until February 8th...The blizzard was on Feb. 7th...The AO went as high as +4.3 on 2/28 and stayed positive until the end of March...Between March 15th and 22nd NYC got three storms adding up to 15" with all time record cold...

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7 minutes ago, uncle W said:

when the AO went to -4 on 12/13/66 the pattern went from record warmth to wet snow and rain...my memory is a little vague but between Dec- 13th-27th NYC had three coastal lows with wet snow and rain...snow to rain to snow...Christmas eve heavy snow and sleet...post Christmas snow to heavy rain...January was mild with temperatures near 70 the second half of January...The AO was a little negative on and off until February 8th...The blizzard was on Feb. 7th...The AO went as high as +4.3 on 2/28 and stayed positive until the end of March...Between March 15th and 22nd NYC got three storms adding up to 15" with all time record cold...

 

 

Thanks 

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18 minutes ago, donsutherland1 said:

All encouraging information. The state of the AO in December could provide insight. All of the duds from the above sample saw strongly positive December AO figures (+1.000 or above monthly averages). The sample size is small, so caution is still in order.

The -3 or lower October -AO drop is usually followed by at least one month from Dec to Mar with a -1.000 AO or lower monthly reading.

2014-2015 was an interesting case where we saw a strongly + AO Dec-Mar instead. The winter pattern with record cold and

heavy snows followed the November near record -EPO pattern instead.

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1 minute ago, bluewave said:

The -3 or lower October -AO drop is usually followed by at least one month from Dec to Mar with a -1.000 AO or lower monthly reading.

2014-2015 was an interesting case where we saw a strongly + AO Dec-Mar instead. The winter pattern with record cold and

heavy snows followed the November near record -EPO pattern instead.

Yes. That's right. So far, at least for those of us who like snowfall, things are looking encouraging.

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12 minutes ago, donsutherland1 said:

All encouraging information. The state of the AO in December could provide insight. All of the duds from the above sample saw strongly positive December AO figures (+1.000 or above monthly averages). The sample size is small, so caution is still in order.

most of the Decembers with various enso were mild if the ao was positive for December on average...1983 was an exception but only because it went way positive the last ten days...2012-13, 1984-85, 1981-82 are the none el nino's...1984 had a positive ao on average and the other two were negative...none of them were any good in December...snowfall for December was below average except for 1984...all three winters recovered to have average snowfall...

 

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3 minutes ago, uncle W said:

most of the Decembers with various enso were mild if the ao was positive for December on average...1983 was an exception but only because it went way positive the last ten days...2012-13, 1984-85, 1981-82 are the none el nino's...1984 had a positive ao on average and the other two were negative...none of them were any good in December...snowfall for December was below average except for 1984...all three winters recovered to have average snowfall...

 

That's true. By December, there's a pretty good correlation between temperatures and the AO.

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14 minutes ago, bluewave said:

The -3 or lower October -AO drop is usually followed by at least one month from Dec to Mar with a -1.000 AO or lower monthly reading.

2014-2015 was an interesting case where we saw a strongly + AO Dec-Mar instead. The winter pattern with record cold and

heavy snows followed the November near record -EPO pattern instead.

https://www.aer.com/science-research/climate-weather/arctic-oscillation

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, PB GFI said:

Also another study just came out in January linking October 500 mb patterns to winter. These very low October AO readings

have a strong 500 mb height anomaly over the Russian Arctic Taymyr region like we are seeing this month so far.

Predictability of the wintertime Arctic Oscillation based on autumn circulation

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.4616/abstract

A statistical method for 1-month lead prediction of the wintertime Arctic Oscillation (AO) is suggested in the study. Predictors, independently constructed for each forecast based on October geopotential height of the 500 hPa surface (Z500), indicate that the strongest impact of October circulation on the wintertime AO originates from a Z500 anomaly over the Taymyr Peninsula which causes an anomalous October advection of the cold (warm) air to the central Arctic and warm (cold) air to the East Asia prior to winters of the positive (negative) AO polarity. Independent verification assessments based on the series of 30 forecasts of the December–February (DJF) AO index (AOI) reveal a high skill of the developed method, with correlation coefficient between the predicted and observed DJF AOI being 0.61 and mean square skill score being 0.37.

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51 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Euro looks really warm with numerous 70's next week and a chance of getting back to around 80 as the -AO relaxes.

 

KEWR_2016101300_ecmwf_min_max_10.png

 

 

from the 1910's to the 1960's NYC averaged over 80 for the October max...since 1970 the average is around 79...the 1940's averaged 85 for the max...

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2 hours ago, bluewave said:

Euro looks really warm with numerous 70's next week and a chance of getting back to around 80 as the -AO relaxes.

 

KEWR_2016101300_ecmwf_min_max_10.png

 

 

Really looks to warm up after this cold shot Friday night and into Saturday.  September like weather from Sunday on it appears, with 70s possible pretty far inland.

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On 10/4/2016 at 8:15 PM, Kmlwx said:

You're wrong. Hurricane Schwartz said so. He's better than you ;)

2 hours ago, bluewave said:

Euro looks really warm with numerous 70's next week and a chance of getting back to around 80 as the -AO relaxes.

 

KEWR_2016101300_ecmwf_min_max_10.png

 

 

 

The long range euro has not been tht good.

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59 minutes ago, JerseyWx said:

Really looks to warm up after this cold shot Friday night and into Saturday.  September like weather from Sunday on it appears, with 70s possible pretty far inland.

Great I love 70s this time of year. There's no need for freezing weather when snow is realistically another 2 months away. 

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