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OK/AR/KS/MO Winter 2016-17 Winter Discussion


lookingnorth

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1 hour ago, Wx 24/7 said:

I am just not comfortable with this situation considering the variance in solutions from this system. Whoever said that it may be a nowcast situation was certainly right. I know most events usually are, but this one maybe more so than normal. 

To me, one of the key things I will be watching is if we warm up as forecast this afternoon. That will give me an indication if the cold air is a bit stronger than initially forecast. 

Been stuck at 28 for hours here. The airport just dropped to 27 it looks like. The GFS doesn't capture low level airmasses very well because of it's more coarse grid. The NAM/HRRR and other short range guidance would do a better job. With that being said, it would have to warm 4 degrees here in the next 30 mins for it to match the latest full HRRR run for noon.

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Warnings or advisories should come with the afternoon forecast products. They will likely go Warning with quarter inch or greater ice accretion forecast.

That said, Missouri may not get the 3/4"+ amounts advertised. Friday precip is light and intermittent. Saturday the WF will try to lift north at the onset of the more steady to moderate freezing rain and rain. Still 1/4" to 1/2" is a damaging ice storm. Quarter inch is warning criteria, so it is an easy call regardless. Even shaving a quarter inch, I like the chart STL posted for relative threats of ice impacts. Chart appears coordinated with other Missouri offices.

ICT also posted an ice accretion chart. If one extrapolates into Missouri, it is not as much as the STL chart. Again, the lower amounts are still damaging. Central Kansas had a bullseye of particularly high ice accumulation. However latest NWP show warmer air mixing down with the heavier rain. Euro is a notable exception, but it will depend on the rate of the surface high retreat.

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The current forecast for Central Oklahoma (as per the OUN forecast discussion) is based on temps being above freezing overnight and wetbulbing down below freezing once the rain starts in the a.m.  Since the initial rainfall is likely to be light, they were expecting that wetbulbing to take some time, which in turn would limit ice accretion (again this is for Central OK... to the north and west, it is going to be awful regardless).  Noon temperature at OKC is 32 F even with a bit of sun out there.  Assuming the sun stays out for the afternoon, we might tick up a few more degrees, but I am thinking even a high of 40 F is now doubtful.  And temps will likely drop right off after sunset.  It is looking increasingly like we will be below freezing... perhaps by several degrees... from the minute the rain starts.  That could make things MUCH worse for the a.m. rush tomorrow.... and for the following 24 to 36 hours during which temps may well stay below freezing.  

 

The only saving grace here is that this is going to be more like the east coast ice storms I grew up with:  The cold air will start to get stale and eventually the warm air WILL win out and temps WILL get above freezing and melt everything.  The only question is how long it will take and how much trouble we see before that happens.         

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3 minutes ago, KC metro said:

12z NAM and GFS don't agree on the amount of ice accumulation for Kansas City. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what each model shows for Ice accumulation... just know that .25" to 1" of ice are likely/possible.

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If temps continue trending cooler than model forecasts that's going to create a pretty big mess tomorrow for the OKC and Tulsa metros.  The trend doesn't seem like a good one in this case.  Ice is awful to deal with and NW OK appears to be on the verge of an epic event.  

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Norman NWS: Freezing Rain Advisory for:

BECKHAM-WA****A-CADDO-CANADIAN-OKLAHOMA-LINCOLN-GRADY-MCCLAIN-
CLEVELAND-POTTAWATOMIE-HARMON-GREER-KIOWA-JACKSON-COMANCHE-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF...ELK CITY...SAYRE...CORDELL...
BURNS FLAT...SENTINEL...ANADARKO...HINTON...YUKON...CONCHO...
EL RENO...MUSTANG...OKLAHOMA CITY...CHANDLER...STROUD...PRAGUE...
MEEKER...DAVENPORT...WELLSTON...CHICKASHA...TUTTLE...PURCELL...
NEWCASTLE...BLANCHARD...NORMAN...MOORE...SHAWNEE...HOLLIS...
MANGUM...GRANITE...HOBART...SNYDER...ALTUS...LAWTON
* ICE ACCUMULATION...ICE ACCUMULATIONS BETWEEN ONE-TENTH TO NEAR
  ONE- QUARTER INCH... ESPECIALLY ALONG AND NEAR INTERSTATE 4

ISW for:

HARPER-WOODS-ALFALFA-GRANT-KAY-ELLIS-WOODWARD-MAJOR-GARFIELD-
NOBLE-ROGER MILLS-DEWEY-CUSTER-BLAINE-KINGFISHER-LOGAN-PAYNE-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF...BUFFALO...LAVERNE...ALVA...CHEROKEE...
HELENA...CARMEN...MEDFORD...POND CREEK...LAMONT...WAKITA...
PONCA CITY...BLACKWELL...SHATTUCK...ARNETT...GAGE...FARGO...
WOODWARD...FAIRVIEW...ENID...PERRY...CHEYENNE...HAMMON...
SEILING...VICI...TALOGA...LEEDEY...WEATHERFORD...CLINTON...
WATONGA...GEARY...OKEENE...KINGFISHER...HENNESSEY...OKARCHE...
GUTHRIE...STILLWATER
* ICE ACCUMULATIONS...ICE ACCUMULATIONS OF ONE-QUARTER TO ONE-
  HALF INCH. THE HEAVIEST ACCUMULATIONS ARE EXPECTED SATURDAY.
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8 minutes ago, JoMo said:

OKC area:

image6.png

They've moved everything south incrementally over their early a.m. products, but literally only a few miles.  I think as this gets closer and we can do some real nowcasting, they may have to move this a few more ticks to the south.  I also think that, once the warm air advection gets going, it will warm fairly quickly in Central OK.  In other words, I think things will be worse than expected into Saturday and then rapidly get better than hoped by late Saturday.  

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I'm not trying to lessen the impact but the 18z NAM and 12z GFS are worlds apart on ice accumulation for certain areas. GFS has heavy accumulation for much of Kansas whereas the NAM would shift the heaviest accumulation into southern KS and NW Ok. Not saying this is accurate but worth watching to see if other model shift the heavier precip southwest ward. 

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44 minutes ago, KC metro said:

I'm not trying to lessen the impact but the 18z NAM and 12z GFS are worlds apart on ice accumulation for certain areas. GFS has heavy accumulation for much of Kansas whereas the NAM would shift the heaviest accumulation into southern KS and NW Ok. Not saying this is accurate but worth watching to see if other model shift the heavier precip southwest ward. 

That's being driven by significantly different surface temp profiles between the two models.  When looking at accuracy with this system 24hrs out, the NAM has been more accurate.  For example on the 18Z NAM run yesterday, the forecast was for temps at this time of approximately 42* with the GFS at 46.  Actual temp?  39*

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1 hour ago, OUGrad05 said:

That's being driven by significantly different surface temp profiles between the two models.  When looking at accuracy with this system 24hrs out, the NAM has been more accurate.  For example on the 18Z NAM run yesterday, the forecast was for temps at this time of approximately 42* with the GFS at 46.  Actual temp?  39*

I'm thinking it also has to do with how far the heavier precip makes it northward. For example, KC stays below freezing for most of the event yet the NAM is calling for less than .10 which means the heavier precip doesn't make it as far north. The GFS on the other hand calls for .25 to .50. 

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29 minutes ago, KC metro said:

I'm thinking it also has to do with how far the heavier precip make is northward. For example, KC stays below freezing for most of the event yet the NAM is calling for less than .10 which means the heavier precip doesn't make it as far north.

That's a good point it keeps most of the precip south of the KC metro

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38 minutes ago, Cerakoter1984 said:

For what it's worth, Tulsa not doing a great job of convincing me they went even remotely close to far enough southeast now.

They may do another update later this evening. Model divergence is still significant, they're leaning a bit towards the GFS on temp profiles it seems.

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Euro weeklies coming in..... Looks like we're in retrogression mode for Feb. These might be the best looking weeklies of the year. Looks like a stormy late Jan with a low retrograding from the GOA area back to the Aleutians. This is going to pop a -EPO, with troughing in the central and eastern US. Signs of a -AO forming after the first week of Feb as well with continued central and eastern US troughing. 850 MB temps are below normal from late Jan into late Feb at the end of the run.

EDIT: Temps: Warm through late Jan, and then colder than normal through the entire month of Feb.

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