August 24 Indiana/Ohio Tornado Outbreak

[Hoosier]

They have 20 injuries listed for the Kokomo storm.  Could've been a lot worse.

 

PUBLIC INFORMATION STATEMENT  
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE INDIANAPOLIS IN  
628 PM EDT THU AUG 25 2016  
   
..PRELIMINARY NWS DAMAGE SURVEYS FOR 08/24/2016 TORNADO EVENTS  
  
   
OVERVIEW  
MULTIPLE SUPERCELL THUNDERSTORMS PRODUCED FIVE  
TORNADOES ACROSS CARROLL, HOWARD, MARION AND MONTGOMERY COUNTIES  
DURING THE AFTERNOON AND EVENING OF AUGUST 24 2016. PRELIMINARY  
TORNADO SUMMARIES ARE LISTED IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER BELOW:  
   
TORNADO #1  
  
RATING:                 EF-2  
ESTIMATED PEAK WIND:    120 MPH   
PATH LENGTH /STATUTE/:  5.38 MILES   
PATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/:   125 YARDS  
FATALITIES:             0   
INJURIES:               0  
  
START DATE:             AUG 24 2016   
START TIME:             2:38 PM EDT  
START LOCATION:         3 SE CRAWFORDSVILLE  
START LAT/LON:          40.0018N / 86.8735W  
  
END DATE:               AUG 24 2016  
END TIME:               2:48 PM EDT  
END LOCATION:           8 SE CRAWFORDSVILLE  
END LAT/LON:            40.0006N / 86.7720W  
  
THE TORNADO LARGELY TRACKED OVER OPEN COUNTRY. MAJOR DAMAGE TO  
HOMES AND BARNS OCCURRED NEAR LINNSBURG. NUMEROUS TREES DAMAGED.  
   
TORNADO #2  
  
RATING:                 EF-3  
ESTIMATED PEAK WIND:    152 MPH  
PATH LENGTH /STATUTE/:  4.82 MILES  
PATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/:   300 YARDS  
FATALITIES:             0  
INJURIES:               20  
  
START DATE:             AUG 24 2016   
START TIME:             3:20 PM EDT  
START LOCATION:         3.4 SW KOKOMO  
START LAT/LON:          40.4613N /86.1884W  
  
END DATE:               AUG 24 2016  
END TIME:               3:30 PM EDT  
END LOCATION:           2.1 SE KOKOMO  
END LAT/LON:            40.4714N /86.0978W  
  
SIGNIFICANT STRUCTURAL DAMAGE TO HOMES AND BUSINESSES ACROSS THE  
SOUTH SIDE OF KOKOMO. STARBUCKS DESTROYED NEAR MARKLAND MALL.  
ADDITIONAL SURVEY ANALYSIS SUGGESTS THIS TRACK WILL BE EXTENDED  
TO THE E/NE...AND WILL BE UPDATED EITHER LATER TONIGHT OR FRIDAY.  
   
TORNADO #3  
  
RATING:                 EF-0  
ESTIMATED PEAK WIND:    80 MPH  
PATH LENGTH /STATUTE/:  0.37 MILES  
PATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/:   100 YARDS  
FATALITIES:             0  
INJURIES:               0  
  
START DATE:             AUG 24 2016   
START TIME:             4:18 PM EDT  
START LOCATION:         3.5 NE DOWNTOWN INDIANAPOLIS  
START LAT/LON:          39.8031N / 86.1108W  
  
END DATE:               AUG 24 2016  
END TIME:               4:19 PM EDT  
END LOCATION:           3.6 NE DOWNTOWN INDIANAPOLIS  
END LAT/LON:            39.8017N / 86.1041W   
  
WINDOWS BLOWN OUT OF A HOME NEAR THE INTERSECTION OF 25TH AND  
LASALLE STREETS. ROOF DAMAGE TO A BUILDING ON STANTON STREET.   
   
TORNADO #4  
  
RATING:                 EF-1  
ESTIMATED PEAK WIND:    100 MPH  
PATH LENGTH /STATUTE/:  17.24 MILES  
PATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/:   100 YARDS  
FATALITIES:             0  
INJURIES:               0  
  
START DATE:             AUG 24 2016   
START TIME:             5:40 PM EDT  
START LOCATION:         5.2 ESE FLORA  
START LAT/LON:          40.5280N / 86.4308W  
  
END DATE:               AUG 24 2016  
END TIME:               6:22 PM EDT  
END LOCATION:           5 NNE KOKOMO  
END LAT/LON:            40.5585N / 86.1086W  
  
SEVERAL BARNS SUSTAINED PARTIAL WALL AND ROOF DAMAGE. ONE GARAGE  
SLID OFF ITS FOUNDATION. TREE DAMAGE THROUGHOUT THE PATH.  
   
TORNADO #5  
  
RATING:                 EF-1  
ESTIMATED PEAK WIND:    85 MPH  
PATH LENGTH /STATUTE/:  1.51 MILES  
PATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/:   50 YARDS  
FATALITIES:             0  
INJURIES:               0  
  
START DATE:             AUG 24 2016  
START TIME:             6:56 PM EDT  
START LOCATION:         1.2 S RUSSIAVILLE  
START LAT/LON:          40.3993N / 86.2714W  
  
END DATE:               AUG 24 2016  
END TIME:               6:58 PM EDT  
END LOCATION:           2 SE RUSSIAVILLE  
END LAT/LON:            40.3970N / 86.2431W  
  
THE TORNADO LARGELY TRACKED OVER OPEN COUNTRY. ONE GARAGE WAS  
DAMAGED. TREES AND CROPS SUSTAINED DAMAGE THROUGHOUT THE PATH.  

 

[Amped]

None of those maps show Canada.  Windsor Tornado started a a spout over the Detroit river so it should be included IMO.

[Chinook]

Maumee River Valley storm reports from yesterday (preliminary). It might be nice to see a map including all final survey results. (in a few days)

 

[Stebo]

2 minutes ago, Chinook said:

Maumee River Valley storm reports from yesterday (preliminary). It might be nice to see a map including all final survey results. (in a few days)

 

When I look at that map, all I can say is that we averted major tragedy. Take that track and drop it 2-3 miles south and it rides US24 all the way to Toledo through Defiance and Napolean.

[michsnowfreak]

Yesterday evening, many strolling along the waterfront of the Detroit River in Wyandotte witnessed a tornado form over the water which then touched down in Windsor, ON, causing property damage. I was completely clueless to this when it was ongoing, but probably the closest a funnel has been to me.

[michsnowfreak]

5 hours ago, Stebo said:

If they can't say for certain that was a tornado they need to never do a survey again. I will say this, this entire metro is lucky that the tornado hit where it did. any other spot in Canada or on this side of the river, it would have been a catastrophic disaster.

Video from a waterfront restaurant in Wyandotte

 

[SchaumburgStormer]

17 minutes ago, michsnowfreak said:

Video from a waterfront restaurant in Wyandotte

 

Stationary bird in flight. Sweet. 

[Hoosier]

So I understand the Detroit River forms the border between the US and Canada.  Just wondering how that works in terms of surveying.  Would DTX be responsible for the beginning of the path over the water or did it occur entirely in Canadian territory?

[Stebo]

1 minute ago, Hoosier said:

So I understand the Detroit River forms the border between the US and Canada.  Just wondering how that works in terms of surveying.  Would DTX be responsible for the beginning of the path over the water or did it occur entirely in Canadian territory?

It looked like it formed in the middle of the river, I would assume this is all Environment Canada at this point. Nothing really to survey out over the water.

[Hoosier]

12 minutes ago, Stebo said:

It looked like it formed in the middle of the river, I would assume this is all Environment Canada at this point. Nothing really to survey out over the water.

Obviously there wasn't damage over the water, but the usual custom seems to be to give an EF0 rating to tornadoes caught on camera that don't cause damage.  Granted that is when they are on land.  I'd have to double check but I thought there were 1 or 2 previous instances of a tornado forming over the Detroit River or Lake St Clair and getting rated.

[hlcater]

26 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

Obviously there wasn't damage over the water, but the usual custom seems to be to give an EF0 rating to tornadoes caught on camera that don't cause damage.  Granted that is when they are on land.  I'd have to double check but I thought there were 1 or 2 previous instances of a tornado forming over the Detroit River or Lake St Clair and getting rated.

Unrelated, but a "waterspout" over a lake in omaha got an EF0 rating IIRC. At least I think it was... It was counted as a tornado, but never heard of the rating, so I'm making some assumptions since it did not do damage.

[Hoosier]

Info is still preliminary and the number will change but it looks like there were at least 7 tornadoes in the IWX area.

[HillsdaleMIWeather]

9 tornadoes confirmed in IWX

National Weather Service Raw Text Product

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NOUS43 KIWX 261816
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INZ003>009-012>018-020-022>027-032>034-MIZ077>081-OHZ001-002-004-
005-015-016-024-025-271200-

Public Information Statement
National Weather Service Northern Indiana
215 PM EDT FRI AUG 26 2016 /115 PM CDT FRI AUG 26 2016/

...NWS DAMAGE SURVEY FOR 08/24/2016 TORNADO EVENT Update #2...

.UPDATE...
Details for three tornadoes have been updated below, including a tornado
in northeast Allen County Indiana, a tornado in northern Paulding
and far southern Defiance counties, and a tornado in Miami County. 
Additional surveys continue today and additional information will be
added at a later time. A continued thanks to our spotters, the public,
emergency managers and media partners for continued information to help
us complete these surveys. Note: tornadoes below are listed in 
chronological order.

.Tornado 1 / Wells County... 

Rating:                 EF-0
Estimated peak wind:    65 mph
Path length /Statute/:  0.04 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   20 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016 
Start time:             4:59 pm EDT
Start location:         4 miles east of Van Buren / Wells / IN /                    
Start Lat/Lon:          40.6103 N -85.4249 W

End date:               08/24/2016
End time:               5:00 pm EDT
End location:           4 miles east of Van Buren / Wells / IN
End_lat/lon:            40.6107 N  / -85.4244 W

A survey conducted along with eyewitness reports indicate that a funnel 
cloud briefly made contact with the ground on county road west 900 south, 
one half mile east of south 1100 west. A few tree branches were snapped, 
the metal siding of a pole barn was partially sucked outward and an 
unanchored wooden well house was drug into a nearby pond. This tornado 
was in contact with the ground for about one minute.

.Tornado 2/ Allen County Indiana...

Rating:                 EF-3 
Estimated peak wind:    160 mph 
Path length /Statute/:  5.26 miles 
Path width /Maximum/:   500 yards
Fatalities:             0 
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             5:27 pm EDT 
Start location:         3.7 miles northwest of Woodburn / Allen / IN 
Start Lat/Lon:          40.1475 N / -84.9187 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               5:39 pm EDT 
End location:           4.1 miles east of Harlan / Allen / IN 
End_lat/lon:            40.1953 N / -84.8425 W

The tornado touched down roughly 1/4 mile northeast of the intersection
of Doty Road and Roberts Road in a crop field. The tornado tracked
generally in a northeasterly direction causing extensive structural
damage to homes, barns, trees and crops throughout the entirety of the
path. Additional details will be posted in our web story at
http://www.weather.gov/iwx/20160824_TornadoOutbreak. 

.Tornado 3 / Adams County...

Rating:                 EF-1 
Estimated peak wind:    100 mph
Path length /Statute/:  7.62 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   50 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             5:49 pm EDT
Start location:         3.5 miles northwest of Berne / Adams / IN
Start Lat/Lon:          40.6832 N / -85.0247 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               6:03 pm EDT
End location:           5.9 miles north northeast of Berne / Adams / IN
End_lat/lon:            40.7337 N / -84.8967 W

A survey and eyewitness reports along with an aerial survey by Emergency 
Management indicated a funnel cloud was skipping along this path and
occasionally touching down. The aerial survey indicated several touch
downs within the middle of bean and corn fields. Ground survey found
several taller barn structures with partial roofs torn off and lofted
several hundred yards in pieces. Larger trees had large limbs broken
off while smaller trees were knocked down or uprooted. 

.Tornado 4 / Paulding/Defiance Counties...

Rating:                 EF-2 
Estimated peak wind:    130 mph
Path length /Statute/:  4.47 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   250 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             5:53 pm EDT
Start location:         4.2 miles northeast of Antwerp / Paulding / OH
Start Lat/Lon:          41.2220 N / -84.6813 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               6:04 pm EDT
End location:           1.5 miles south southeast of Mark Center / Defiance / OH
End_lat/lon:            41.2686 N / -84.6232 W 

The tornado touched down roughly 1/5 mile west of the intersection of
Road 192 and Road 220 in a wooded area next to a residence. The tornado
tracked generally in a northeasterly direction causing extensive
structural damage to homes, barns, trees and crops throughout the
entirety of the path. Additional details will be posted in our web
story at http://www.weather.gov/iwx/20160824_TornadoOutbreak. 

.Tornado 5 / Miami County...

Rating:                 EF-0 
Estimated peak wind:    70 mph
Path length /Statute/:  0.06 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   20 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             6:13 pm EDT
Start location:         2.0 miles north northwest of Peru / Miami/ IN
Start Lat/Lon:          40.7740 N / -86.0796 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               6:14 pm EDT
End location:           2.0 miles north northwest of Peru / Miami/ IN
End_lat/lon:            40.7742 N / -86.0785 W 

A storm survey and eyewitness reports indicated a brief touchdown on
the north side of Peru. Damage to shingles and sheeting of a roof was
noted at a medical center along with downed large tree limbs. 


.Tornado 6 / Van Wert County...

Rating:                 EF-1
Estimated peak wind:    100 mph
Path length /Statute/:  5.5 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   75 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             6:30 pm EDT
Start location:         8 miles southwest of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
Start Lat/Lon:          40.8241 N / -84.7257 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               6:41 pm EDT
End location:           4.4 miles west northwest of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
End_lat/lon:            40.8881 N / -84.6646 W

A survey and eyewitness reports along with an aerial survey by Emergency 
Management indicated a funnel cloud was skipping along this path and 
occasionally touching down. First touch down was in a corn field just west 
of a residence on Convoy Heller Road. Several trees were uprooted and 
snapped off while some roof and siding damage occurred to the home. A large 
two story garage/barn had mud thrown onto the eastern side of the building. 
A window was broken inward while a vent on the building was blown outward. 
The tornado continued skipping northeast hitting a large barn on US 
highway 224. The roof of this building was blown off to the north and witnessed
by homeowner. The tornado continued skipping northeast, knocking down trees including
a large pine tree in a cemetery. Several small grave stones were also moved.      


.Tornado 7 / Van Wert County...

Rating:                 EF-0
Estimated peak wind:    75 mph
Path length /Statute/:  1.5 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   25 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             6:41 pm EDT
Start location:         4.8 miles west northwest of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
Start Lat/Lon:          40.8878 N / -84.6698 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               6:45 pm EDT
End location:           5.1 miles northwest of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
End_lat/lon:            40.9071 N / -84.6579 W

Secondary spin up tornado from same mesocyclone as tornado 3. Damage found 
from aerial survey by Emergency Manager of mainly crop damage to corn and 
beans.  

.Tornado 8 / Van Wert County... 

Rating:                 EF-0
Estimated peak wind:    65 mph
Path length /Statute/:  4.67 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   40 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             6:51 pm EDT
Start location:         3.9 miles north northeast of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
Start Lat/Lon:          40.9108 N / -84.5538 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               7:04 pm EDT
End location:           8.6 miles northeast of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
End_lat/lon:            40.9601 N / -84.4932 W

Damage found from aerial survey by Emergency Manager of mainly crop damage 
to corn and beans. Tornado skipped once in middle of this path.   

.Tornado 9 / Van Wert County...

Rating:                 EF-0
Estimated peak wind:    65 mph
Path length /Statute/:  2.46 miles
Path width /Maximum/:   20 yards
Fatalities:             0
Injuries:               0

Start date:             08/24/2016  
Start time:             7:04 pm EDT
Start location:         10.1 miles northeast of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
Start Lat/Lon:          40.9602 N / -84.4437 W 


End date:               08/24/2016 
End time:               7:10 pm EDT
End location:           12.6 miles northeast of Van Wert / Van Wert / OH
End_lat/lon:            40.9874 N / -84.4134 W

Damage found from aerial survey by Emergency Manager of mainly crop damage 
to corn and beans.        


EF Scale: The Enhanced Fujita Scale Classifies Tornadoes into the 
following categories.

EF0...Weak......65 to 85 mph
EF1...Weak......86 to 110 mph
EF2...Strong....111 to 135 mph
EF3...Strong....136 to 165 mph
EF4...Violent...166 To 200 mph
EF5...Violent...>200 mph

NOTE:
The information in this statement is PRELIMINARY and subject to
change pending final review of the events and publication in
NWS Storm Data. 

$$

---

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[Hoosier]

This is an interesting read:

http://www.ustornadoes.com/2016/08/26/surprise-indiana-ohio-tornado-outbreak-august-24-2016-happened/

 

Something I'd disagree with him about is when he talks about being very skeptical of the 12z 4 km NAM output since it didn't initialize the morning precipitation properly.  It's a cold start model, which means that it's typically going to do better at the 6-12 hour timeframe than earlier on.  6-12 hours out from 12z Wed put us in the 18z-00z timeframe, which is when the outbreak occurred.  

One of the main points though is something that is definitely worthy of more scientific research -- how to better anticipate situations where storms transition from linear to discrete, tornado producing cells.  There's plenty out there about the opposite.  Obviously one of the things we can learn from this outbreak is to monitor things very closely when we see that type of transition happening in real time, but it would be nice to be able to see it coming farther in advance.

[Hoosier]

Here's what I have so far. 

Tornadoes:  15 (including one in Canada, but there may have been more)

By NWS office:  9 IWX, 5 IND

By strength:  6 EF0, 4 EF1, 2 EF2, 2 EF3

By state:  9 Indiana, 5 Ohio

 

Haven't seen anything from CLE yet.  Given that and the ongoing surveys farther west, there's a good chance the final number ends up being near or over 20. 

[Hoosier]

Map of track through Kokomo -- from IND.

They also just confirmed another tornado south of Kokomo.

 

[IWXwx]

Here are a couple of short videos of a strongly rotating wall cloud just southwest of FWA from my dash cam. I didn't have my camera on when I first spotted the funnel extending from it because I had been filming the Kokomo cell for a long time in Grant, Wells, and Adams counties and was about out ofstorage.

I saw it extend below the tops of the trees, so I called it a tornado. Additionally, at least two other spotters with different views also indicated that it touched down. However, IWX could find no damage, so no tornado.

Still, it's not too often you get a good look at multiple, violently rotating wall clouds, funnels and tornadoes in Indiana. I have some more video that I will upload later, but IWX wanted to see these, so they were the first that I uploaded. Sorry for the shaky picture, loose cam, rough roads, and bad shocks.

 

[IWXwx]

By the way, IWX is now up to 12, 8 in OH and 4 in IN. I know of at least two more that they aren't counting because they could find no damage even though several others, including myself, witnessed. I do have video of IWX tornado #2 which I will upload later.

[Jackstraw]

3 minutes ago, IWXwx said:

Here are a couple of short videos of a strongly rotating wall cloud just southwest of FWA from my dash cam. I didn't have my camera on when I first spotted the funnel extending from it because I had been filming the Kokomo cell for a long time in Grant, Wells, and Adams counties and was about out storage.

I saw it extend below the tops of the trees, so I called it a tornado. Additionally, at least two other spotters with different views also indicated that it touched down. However, IWX could find no damage, so no tornado.

Still, it's not too often you get a good look at multiple, violently rotating wall clouds, funnels and tornadoes in Indiana. I have some more video that I will upload later, but IWX wanted to see these, so they were the first that I uploaded. Sorry for the shaky picture, loose cam, rough roads, and bad shocks.

 

Nice, that is pretty much what I saw and you are right about the wall clouds and funnels.  I am nothing but an obviously armchair weather geek.  But I saw some things in the link Hoosier posted above.  In the radar loop and in the satellite loop.  It looks to me a couple of things happened.  As the linear line entered west central Indiana it seemed the line encountered a strong upper level SE jet while at the same time the MCV started to really back the low level winds in.  If you watch the radar loop as the line neared Kokomo the storms did some really strange "snaking" kind of maneuver I don't think I've ever seen on radar.  It was very obvious as they progressed east they were strongly being ripped SE at the upper levels by that jet while the MCV was catching up and really began punching the low level winds in from the SW.  With the storms already poised in height it looked like those two features were the main rotation initiators.  It was like the linear line almost got slapped in the head from the NW and in the feet from the SW into being discreet.  I don't know how predictable a setup like that is but agree it was an unusual one.  

  Also on my stump, like tropical forecasts I still think way to much emphasis on models than doing true dd meteorology these days 

[andyhb]

Holy crap (from Allen County, Indiana)...

[Hoosier]

11 minutes ago, IWXwx said:

By the way, IWX is now up to 12, 8 in OH and 4 in IN. I know of at least two more that they aren't counting because they could find no damage even though several others, including myself, witnessed. I do have video of IWX tornado #2 which I will upload later.

 

That makes 18 then between IWX and IND.

Here's a couple fun stats for Indiana.  The previous August record of 6 tornadoes (1969) was broken twice this month, on August 15 and August 24.  The preliminary number of tornadoes in Indiana this month stands at 20, which is the same number as all Augusts from 1999-2015 combined.  Even though it's less likely for stuff to get missed nowadays, that is very impressive and quite anomalous.   

[Hoosier]

7 minutes ago, andyhb said:

Holy crap (from Allen County, Indiana)...

 

Great shot.  Not only the obvious scar but you can see the blowdown on the periphery. 

[andyhb]

Reminds me of this a good deal.

[IWXwx]

@Jack, good analysis and for the most part agree.

@Andy, nice aerial shot of the ef-3 path. By the way, the smoke in the pic is a farmer who was burning the remnants of his barn.

@Ryan, great stats, as usual. After a fairly quiet summer, (although I had two tornadoes earlier), who would have thought that August would have been this active, let alone record crushing. And the month's not over.

[Hoosier]

For those who may not know, what Andy posted above is from the Plainfield tornado in 1990.

[andyhb]

1 minute ago, Hoosier said:

For those who may not know, what Andy posted above is from the Plainfield tornado in 1990.

Which was rated F5 based only on that exceptional scouring.

[Hoosier]

Just now, andyhb said:

Which was rated F5 based only on that exceptional scouring.

Indeed.  I don't think something like that could get rated EF5 today unless somebody went outside the bounds of the EF scale.  But in 1990, it was Fujita's scale and who was going to question him?  lol

[andyhb]

Just now, Hoosier said:

Indeed.  I don't think something like that could get rated EF5 today unless somebody went outside the bounds of the EF scale.  But in 1990, it was Fujita's scale and who was going to question him?  lol

Well the Philadelphia, MS tornado from 4/27/11 was rated EF5 based on it plowing that field out.

[Tater Tot]

19 minutes ago, andyhb said:

Holy crap (from Allen County, Indiana)...

That looks like a bare slab near the end of the scar there. This was only given an EF-3 rating?

[Hoosier]

3 minutes ago, andyhb said:

Well the Philadelphia, MS tornado from 4/27/11 was rated EF5 based on it plowing that field out.

Well, there's one example, but I would imagine that many offices would be reluctant to sort of create their own DI/DOD if you will.  It would be nice to have something put into the scale to account for vegetation damage but I'm not sure how good the science is for that at this time.