The 2016-17 Ski Season Thread

[CoastalWx]

7 minutes ago, SR Airglow said:

Big news out of Stowe this morning: http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2017/02/21/vail-resorts-buy-stowe-mountain-resort/98189012/

That should be great for the 1%ers.

[Brian5671]

15 minutes ago, SR Airglow said:

Big news out of Stowe this morning: http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2017/02/21/vail-resorts-buy-stowe-mountain-resort/98189012/

they will invest a bunch in infrastructure there, that's for sure...wonder if a season pass at Breck/Vail/Beaver Creek will now be valid at Stowe?

[CoolMike]

26 minutes ago, SR Airglow said:

Big news out of Stowe this morning: http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2017/02/21/vail-resorts-buy-stowe-mountain-resort/98189012/

The article states that the purchase price was 50 million?  That seems like a really really low price.

[eyewall]

1 hour ago, CoastalWx said:

That should be great for the 1%ers.

It is already a resort for mostly wealthy people. I splurge and go a couple of times of year and sometimes feel rather out of place lol. While people talk about their coming European ski trips while on a ski trip already at Stowe I am just happy I don't have to fill the tank to get home ;). With that said I can't blame Vail for this. Stowe is a great place and I imagine it will do well for their bottom line. My hope is Powderfreak's job will remain secure.

[Brian5671]

41 minutes ago, eyewall said:

It is already a resort for mostly wealthy people. I splurge and go a couple of times of year and sometimes feel rather out of place lol. While people talk about their coming European ski trips while on a ski trip already at Stowe I am just happy I don't have to fill the tank to get home ;). With that said I can't blame Vail for this. Stowe is a great place and I imagine it will do well for their bottom line. My hope is Powderfreak's job will remain secure.

I'm sure part of their goal here is to draw more visitors out west.  Vail owns some smaller hills in Michigan with that goal in mind.

[sankaty]

More info on the Stowe/Vail deal:

http://vtskiandride.com/vail-buys-stowe/

Key paragraph:

Vail Resorts looks forward to integrating Stowe Mountain Resort into its Epic Pass and other season pass products for the 2017-18 winter season, subject to the acquisition closing. With the Epic Pass, Vermont skiers and snowboarders will have unlimited access locally at Stowe at an attractive price as well as the best of the West at Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge and Keystone in Colorado; Park City in Utah; Heavenly, Northstar and Kirkwood in Tahoe; and Whistler Blackcomb in British Columbia, Canada.

The Epic pass could be an amazing deal for folks who ski Stowe regularly and also can get out west periodically.  I'm very interested to see how this will or will not affect season pass pricing across New England.  I've got mixed feelings about it.  Naturally, I'd like to see less expensive passes, but I also have an interest in sustainable pricing and reasonable crowds.

I'd really love to see more season passes that spanned several VT resorts.  Something that allowed day trips to a S VT mountain, but was also valid at some central/northern mountains would be fantastic.  For me, a pass like that with holiday blackouts would need to be priced for early purchase in the $600-$700 range.

[eyewall]

With this pattern it may be time to go West. After a nice little stretch, a big punch in the gut is coming. 

[powderfreak]

6 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

That should be great for the 1%ers.

That won't change anything there.  

Stowe was already operated like a big western resort anyway.  

The only difference is now Stowe is owned by a ski company instead of an insurance company.  

 

[powderfreak]

5 hours ago, CoolMike said:

The article states that the purchase price was 50 million?  That seems like a really really low price.

They only purchased the actual mountain operations and on-hill infrastructure...the real estate, Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Country Club, Stowe Mountain Course, etc all stay with AIG.  

 

[powderfreak]

4 hours ago, eyewall said:

It is already a resort for mostly wealthy people. I splurge and go a couple of times of year and sometimes feel rather out of place lol. While people talk about their coming European ski trips while on a ski trip already at Stowe I am just happy I don't have to fill the tank to get home ;). With that said I can't blame Vail for this. Stowe is a great place and I imagine it will do well for their bottom line. My hope is Powderfreak's job will remain secure.

I'm fine.  They aren't known for purchasing and replacing staff.  They are smart operators...Vail isn't dumb.  If its not broken they won't fix it.  There may be some minor staffing restructuring or something but they need the institutional knowledge that the current staff has regarding the operations of the mountain and its winter/summer operations. 

I think its a great move and in general skiing is a sport for wealthy people these days.  Its not necessarily wealthy people but middle to upper class.  It just depends on your priorities...like I had a conversation with someone complaining about the seasons pass price at Stowe but then was telling me about his brand new $7,000 bicycle he likes to ride through the Notch in the summer.  To me, I'd purchase a seasons pass even if I didn't work here...but I'd never buy an expensive mountain or road bike like a lot of people around here like to do. 

Its capitalism and how every industry works...and a common misconception is that the lift ticket prices are much higher than they need to be.  The overhead costs are MASSIVE and the lift ticket yield is extremely small.  It basically covers costs and then the ancillary stuff is where you make money (like food and beverage, alcohol sales, ski lessons, rentals, etc).  The lift ticket sales barely pay the bills...its a very hard industry to have a good infrastructure and top-line on-hill experience while keeping ticket prices cheap.  Its pretty much impossible.  

[eyewall]

I'm fine.  They aren't known for purchasing and replacing staff.  They are smart operators...Vail isn't dumb.  If its not broken they won't fix it.  There may be some minor staffing restructuring or something but they need the institutional knowledge that the current staff has regarding the operations of the mountain and its winter/summer operations. 

I think its a great move and in general skiing is a sport for wealthy people these days.  Its not necessarily wealthy people but middle to upper class.  It just depends on your priorities...like I had a conversation with someone complaining about the seasons pass price at Stowe but then was telling me about his brand new $7,000 bicycle he likes to ride through the Notch in the summer.  To me, I'd purchase a seasons pass even if I didn't work here...but I'd never buy an expensive mountain or road bike like a lot of people around here like to do. 

Its capitalism and how every industry works...and a common misconception is that the lift ticket prices are much higher than they need to be.  The overhead costs are MASSIVE and the lift ticket yield is extremely small.  It basically covers costs and then the ancillary stuff is where you make money (like food and beverage, alcohol sales, ski lessons, rentals, etc).  The lift ticket sales barely pay the bills...its a very hard industry to have a good infrastructure and top-line on-hill experience while keeping ticket prices cheap.  Its pretty much impossible.  

Yeah I have always guessed that food, hotel, etc is where most of the money is made. That is good to hear and yeah it is best to keep those who are experienced and know the mountain. I live skiing there. I wish I could more often, but I won't complain about Smuggs as it is a great mountain that is within my budget. If I had a spare $7K it would go to a high end drone lol.

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[mreaves]

20 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

They only purchased the actual mountain operations and on-hill infrastructure...the real estate, Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Country Club, Stowe Mountain Course, etc all stay with AIG.  

 

Aren't just about all of the actual trails on land leased from the state too?  Very little actual real estate gets transferred right?

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, sankaty said:

The Epic pass could be an amazing deal for folks who ski Stowe regularly and also can get out west periodically.  I'm very interested to see how this will or will not affect season pass pricing across New England.  I've got mixed feelings about it.  Naturally, I'd like to see less expensive passes, but I also have an interest in sustainable pricing and reasonable crowds.

 

The competition is not stoked on this sale and I bet we may see more areas try to band together in group passes to try and compete. 

Stowe has always set the industry rate for pass prices.  They allow A LOT of places to charge more than they are worth under the premise that they can say, hey we are cheaper than Stowe!  If Stowe's pass prices come down with the Epic Pass it will hurt other areas.  Just this year Stowe came out with a new Young Adults pass that was like $599 up to age 34 (it used to be 29 years old).  Now all the sudden people ages 30-34 could ski Stowe all season long CHEAPER than they could at places like Killington, Sugarbush, and Jay.  It caused Sugarbush to create a brand new product on the fly and Sugarbush offered it for $100 less than Stowe for ages 30-35....but they had to refund a whole bunch of people like $900 who were in that age group and had already bought the Sugarbush Adult Pass.  So the Stowe product directly led to a lot of lost revenue for Sugarbush this season.

I've never seen a place have so much power in the industry...but Stowe lowered their price for an age group and caused their competitor to refund its customers so they wouldn't be paying more than what Stowe charged.  That was unheard of in the industry... so just think what might happen to other areas if Vail comes in and offers a cheaper Stowe seasons pass.  Does Killington or Sugarbush want to offer the most expensive seasons pass in Vermont?  My guess is they'd be forced to drop their rates and lose revenue they thought they had coming.

The big story here is how it'll affect other ski areas if Stowe's pricing changes in any way.  Vail historically jacks up the daily rate while dropping the season pass price.  We'll see.

[radarman]

To ski Vail on a day pass today was $189....   But for seniors, $179

[powderfreak]

Just now, mreaves said:

Aren't just about all of the actual trails on land leased from the state too?  Very little actual real estate gets transferred right?

Yeah everything on Mansfield is state owned but on like 30-50 year leases...and yes actual real estate is pretty small in this transaction.  Vail now owns the lifts, base lodges, snowmaking, grooming machines, etc....but the Spruce Peak village area is still all AIG owned.  That's why the price is so low.  If Vail bought the whole thing it would be well into the hundreds of millions.

[powderfreak]

2 minutes ago, radarman said:

To ski Vail on a day pass today was $189....   But for seniors, $179

But you could get a seasons pass for $799. 

They make it so its better for you to buy a seasons pass if you go there for even a week vacation.  And then hey, maybe you'll want to go again to another one of their other resorts because now you've got a pass.

I don't think the cheap seasons pass would work at Stowe...and I'm sure the competition is praying it doesn't go that route.  You'd see mass exodus to Stowe...plenty of people like Eyewall described that love skiing it but its out of their price range.  You put a Smuggs style price point on a Stowe seasons pass, with the lifts, snowmaking, terrain, etc...it would be a mob scene.

[Ginx snewx]

7 minutes ago, radarman said:

To ski Vail on a day pass today was $189....   But for seniors, $179

stupid, its not like the skiing is better there or even Stowe, you can get as much value for your buck elsewhere. Its all name brand catering to the in crowd. Meh.

[eyewall]

14 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

But you could get a seasons pass for $799. 

They make it so its better for you to buy a seasons pass if you go there for even a week vacation.  And then hey, maybe you'll want to go again to another one of their other resorts because now you've got a pass.

I don't think the cheap seasons pass would work at Stowe...and I'm sure the competition is praying it doesn't go that route.  You'd see mass exodus to Stowe...plenty of people like Eyewall described that love skiing it but its out of their price range.  You put a Smuggs style price point on a Stowe seasons pass, with the lifts, snowmaking, terrain, etc...it would be a mob scene.

Yeah that would actually get out of hand quick. Honestly I would like to see everyone do well with those options remaining intact. I'll take the slow lifts at Smuggs with my budget for just about as much veritcal drop, fun trails, and minimal lines over having the whole state at one place and waiting an hour to get up top after each run.

[powderfreak]

15 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

stupid, its not like the skiing is better there or even Stowe, you can get as much value for your buck elsewhere. Its all name brand catering to the in crowd. Meh.

You'd have to be stupid to pay walk up rates.

With that said, Stowe's not quite a ridiculous as many think.  Do some looking around and the actual price you can pay buy purchasing online is roughly the same as MRG right now ;).

I was curious about skiing tomorrow, Wednesday February 22nd.  So I went online to see what rates were available.

Stowe is $92.

 

Then I went to Mad River Glenn's online store...and the rate is $82.  MRG is only $10 less than Stowe right now.

 

 

[eyewall]

You'd have to be stupid to pay walk up rates.

With that said, Stowe's not quite a ridiculous as many think.  Do some looking around and the actual price you can pay buy purchasing online is roughly the same as MRG right now .

I was curious about skiing tomorrow, Wednesday February 22nd.  So I went online to see what rates were available.

Stowe is $92.



 

Then I went to Mad River Glenn's online store...and the rate is $82.  MRG is only $10 less than Stowe right now.

 



 

Yeah I paid $92 last week for stowe. Just sign up for the bypass online which is free. That isn't much different from Sugarbush and others. Smuggs is different only because of the bash badge which i use.

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[Ginx snewx]

1 minute ago, powderfreak said:

You'd have to be stupid to pay walk up rates.

With that said, Stowe's not quite a ridiculous as many think.  Do some looking around and the actual price you can pay buy purchasing online is roughly the same as MRG right now ;).

I was curious about skiing tomorrow, Wednesday February 22nd.  So I went online to see what rates were available.

Stowe is $92.

 

Then I went to Mad River Glenn's online store...and the rate is $82.  MRG is only $10 less than Stowe right now.

 

 

I was talking about Vail dude, if they jack Stowe up there . I skied Wildcat for 38 bucks paid  way ahead of time for Friday, you have to look around. I paid 49, 46,52,48 bucks a day for SR mid week in March, so basically I can ski for a week what it cost for one day at Vail, just saying.

[powderfreak]

2 minutes ago, eyewall said:

 

Yeah I paid $92 last week for stowe. Just sign up for the bypass online which is free. That isn't much different from Sugarbush and others. Smuggs is different only because of the bash badge which i use.

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You should look into the Vermont travel card club.  It's $71 at Stowe for day tickets....and deals at a lot of other resorts.  I forget what the price is but it's like $50 or something to get the card but then you get discounts all season long at area resorts. 

[eyewall]

You should look into the Vermont travel card club.  It's $71 at Stowe for day tickets....and deals at a lot of other resorts.  I forget what the price is but it's like $50 or something to get the card but then you get discounts all season long at area resorts. 

Thank you and i will! I never knew that existed.

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[eyewall]

Regardless of where you ski, this pattern is awful for at least the next week.

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[powderfreak]

Just now, Ginx snewx said:

I was talking about Vail dude, if they jack Stowe up there . I skied Wildcat for 38 bucks paid  way ahead of time for Friday, you have to look around. I paid 49, 46,52,48 bucks a day for SR mid week in March, so basically I can ski for a week what it cost for one day at Vail, just saying.

Oh yeah the walk up rates are solely for people who don't do research.  Like Stowe wants their passes sold for $92.  But they want people to buy them online ahead of time to shorten ticket window lines.  So you crank the price of walk up to force people to buy ahead of time...and you also sell a bunch of passes for $124 or whatever because there are a ton of people who do no research at all about anything.  

Sort of like you don't expect people to pay the walk up rate and you don't really want them too.  You want them to do it online and have their info in the system.  

I agree the walkup rates everywhere are ridiculous. 

[radarman]

I got 2 adult tix at MRG on Friday (non vacation week) for $65 total, BOGO with 3 8 gal fillups.  Was good.  

I am not ripping Vail btw, God bless any ski resort for doing whatever it takes to keep the chairs going... Nelsap is too crowded as it is.  And I have spoken of the season pass/day pass strategy before in these threads.  

Realistically I will not buy a season pass anywhere except Berkshire East so barring those gas station like deals, $190 tix might keep me away from Stowe if they adopted the Vail scheme.  But at any rate I fully recognize that they're not making much money off me as it is, and concede that my two days a year should not go into their calculus.  Minorly bummed at the prospect but certainly do not hold it against them if that's what happens.

 

[sankaty]

While reading up on the Stowe/Vail deal, I became aware of the Max Pass.  I'd heard of it as an add-on for certain season passes, but didn't realize it was available separately.  It seems pretty close to ideal for someone like me:

https://www.themaxpass.com/

I already have family memberships to very inexpensive ski clubs for both the CT Ski Council and NY Capital District Ski Council, with makes us eligible for all the awareness days throughout VT.

Combine the Max Pass, the ski council memberships, and something like the VT Travel Club Card (there is also the similar Ride and Ski card), and a whole family can have a ton of options for skiing at very reasonable rates.  I bet we could ski 20 weekend days a year and average around $40 a day.

That said, if I lived a little closer to Stowe, I'd definitely go for a Stowe pass.  I just can't make the 4-hour plus drive frequently enough to justify it.  Someday, maybe when the kids are older.

[powderfreak]

Just now, radarman said:

I got 2 adult tix at MRG on Friday (non vacation week) for $65 total, BOGO with 3 8 gal fillups.  Was good.  

I am not ripping Vail btw, God bless any ski resort for doing whatever it takes to keep the chairs going... Nelsap is too crowded as it is.  And I have spoken of the season pass/day pass strategy before in these threads.  

Realistically I will not buy a season pass anywhere except Berkshire East so barring those gas station like deals, $190 tix might keep me away from Stowe if they adopted the Vail scheme.  But at any rate I fully recognize that they're not making much money off me as it is, and concede that my two days a year should not go into their calculus.  Minorly bummed at the prospect but certainly do not hold it against them if that's what happens.

 

My assumption would be that if the walk-up rate jumps a lot, the online pricing would stay fairly similar. 

Be interesting to see what it does to VT Travel Club $71/day rate and those other type deals. 

And yeah, MRG definitely has more availability for getting discounts and they have different pricing for mid-week/weekends/holidays, etc.  Stowe's pricing is the same if its a random Wednesday vs. a holiday Saturday.  I was just surprised that if you were in northern VT on vacation this week and was looking for lift tickets, MRG is only $10 less than Stowe.  I figured it would be at least $30 less at a minimum.

[radarman]

I will say that the 189/179 numbers I posted did come from the vail website online rate.  Hopefully it wasn't more walkup lol.  

At any rate I don't think we should make assumptions that Stowe will change pricing schemes just yet.  I don't think Kirkwood is like Vail for example.  Like PF said they have some experience at this and the notion of a pricing scheme to fit the market is not far fetched.

[powderfreak]

Just now, sankaty said:

While reading up on the Stowe/Vail deal, I became aware of the Max Pass.  I'd heard of it as an add-on for certain season passes, but didn't realize it was available separately.  It seems pretty close to ideal for some one like me:

https://www.themaxpass.com/

I already have family memberships to very inexpensive ski clubs for both the CT Ski Council and NY Capital District Ski Council, with makes us eligible for all the awareness days throughout VT.

Combine the Max Pass, the ski council memberships, and something like the VT Travel Club Card (there is also the similar Ride and Ski card), and a whole family can have a ton of options for skiing at very reasonable rates.  I bet we could ski 20 weekend days a year and average around $40 a day.

That said, if I lived a little closer to Stowe, I'd definitely go for a Stowe pass.  I just can't make the 4-hour plus drive frequently enough to justify it.  Someday, maybe when the kids are older.

Ski council membership days are also the way to go... I think they are like $55 days at Stowe on the ski club appreciation/awareness days.  You just have to be available on those specific weekends.

And like Ginxy said, if you find slower times of the year (read March and April) you can often get some decent ski and stay packages where the lift tickets come out in the $50-60 range.  Bus trips are also an interesting option as often using a tour provider can cost less (even with transportation) than even the online ticket price as those tour operators get tickets at like $50 a pop.  Its funny when you see a bus trip advertised for like $75 out of PVD or something and the lift ticket price that day is $92.  So you get transportation and ticket for less than just the cost of what you'd pay for a ticket if you drove yourself.  But I personally like the freedom of driving yourself.