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Hurricane Joaquin


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Quick question: isn't there at some point where the hurricane will start influencing it's environment and start making the steering winds follow the storm as apposed to the storm following the steering winds?

 

I remember reading this a long time ago and seemed to remember that this happens with strong storms.

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Quick question: isn't there at some point where the hurricane will start influencing it's environment and start making the steering winds follow the storm as apposed to the storm following the steering winds?

 

I remember reading this a long time ago and seemed to remember that this happens with strong storms.

Dimensions, more than intensity is what matters most, though intensity has some saying. In general, tropical cyclones are no match, sometimes by an order of magnitude or more, to mid latitude baroclinic systems...in the big picture, literally, a longwave deep trough is just such a big influence wrt a hurricane so as the intensity of the latter makes little difference. That being said, in borderline situations that little influence could make a difference. But most models have a strong TC, growing in size even, but still recurve Joaquin out to sea.

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Nice calls on the intensity, Lake Effect King

Happy to see the eye clear out and the better symmetry and colder cloud tops in the CDO.

Thanks Bob!  Been doing this for a long time.....I think I have a knack for "seeing" when RI's are about to occur...IMO, the symmetry of the system (ie, nice and circular at the surface) plays a huge role in the potential of RI.....everything else was only getting better as time went on...

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Residents in some of the islands were really caught off guard by Joaquin. I can see why.

 

The southern islands (Acklins, Crooked, Mayaguana, and the Inaguas) were not even under a Hurricane WATCH until 5:00 a.m. EDT/09Z this morning, only four hours or so before hurricane-force winds arrived, because the NHC track failed to account for the more southerly movement and showed an earlier westerly turn, keeping hurricane-force winds north of those islands. Why didn't the NHC at least recommend a watch?

This reminds me of Humberto 2007, when a rapidly intensifying storm deviated east of the forecast track and was expected to be near hurricane intensity, yet the NHC, following earlier model guidance and intermediate advisory protocol, showed an earlier landfall in Texas and didn't even recommend/issue a Hurricane Watch. The reliance on continuity really seems dangerous when dealing with an evolving situation so close to land. Will this be fixed?

While I hate to blame the NHC, in this and some other cases, I don't see how it can avoid responsibility for failing to recommend appropriate watches/warnings because it adhered to continuity and model guidance instead of short-term meteorological trends. Are Bahamians suddenly even less important because they aren't U.S. citizens?

 

(Note: I actually posted the above on the NHC's Facebook page and am eager to hear its response.)

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Residents in some of the islands were really caught off guard by Joaquin. I can see why.

 

The southern islands (Acklins, Crooked, Mayaguana, and the Inaguas) were not even under a Hurricane WATCH until 5:00 a.m. EDT/09Z this morning, only four hours or so before hurricane-force winds arrived, because the NHC track failed to account for the more southerly movement and showed an earlier westerly turn, keeping hurricane-force winds north of those islands. Why didn't the NHC at least recommend a watch?

This reminds me of Humberto 2007, when a rapidly intensifying storm deviated east of the forecast track and was expected to be near hurricane intensity, yet the NHC, following earlier model guidance and intermediate advisory protocol, showed an earlier landfall in Texas and didn't even recommend/issue a Hurricane Watch. The reliance on continuity really seems dangerous when dealing with an evolving situation so close to land. Will this be fixed?

While I hate to blame the NHC, in this and some other cases, I don't see how it can avoid responsibility for failing to recommend appropriate watches/warnings because it adhered to continuity and model guidance instead of short-term meteorological trends. Are Bahamians suddenly even less important because they aren't U.S. citizens?

 

(Note: I actually posted the above on the NHC's Facebook page and am eager to hear its response.)

 

it's actually important, since the Bahamas are technically a separate country. and as such, the US National Hurricane Center does not have jurisdiction over them for watches/warnings. I'm sure they probably recommended it to them in inter-governmental chats. and yes the Hurricane Center will broadcast that said country has issued said watch and warning because of x storm. but you can't force another country to take action like that just because you say so.

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it's actually important, since the Bahamas are technically a separate country. and as such, the US National Hurricane Center does not have jurisdiction over them for watches/warnings. I'm sure they probably recommended it to them in inter-governmental chats. and yes the Hurricane Center will broadcast that said country has issued said watch and warning because of x storm. but you can't force another country to take action like that just because you say so.

Are you sure? It would seem logical to me that with the proximity to the US and our territories in the Carribean that the NHC would be responsible for US citizens who are boating or living in the area.

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it's actually important, since the Bahamas are technically a separate country. and as such, the US National Hurricane Center does not have jurisdiction over them for watches/warnings. I'm sure they probably recommended it to them in inter-governmental chats. and yes the Hurricane Center will broadcast that said country has issued said watch and warning because of x storm. but you can't force another country to take action like that just because you say so.

As I read the post, I wanted to say " you do realize what the N in NHC stands for, right?"

....but I'm not one of those. Just let it go.

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Are you sure? It would seem logical to me that with the proximity to the US and our territories in the Carribean that the NHC would be responsible for US citizens who are boating or living in the area.

yep, it's a pure jurisdictional matter. just like after a certain point in the Atlantic the Canadian Hurricane Centre issues statements/warnings/advisories for their territorial waters, with Mexico doing the same. Now mind you, i'm sure if they got a call from Miami recommending that they prepare as they're projected they're going to get slammed they will pay attention to it and probably issue statements as appropriate. but we provide the center and the modeling capabilities as per agreement with the other countries in the Atlantic and eastern Pacific basins. but they still issue the warnings as a sovereign country.

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yep, it's a pure jurisdictional matter. just like after a certain point in the Atlantic the Canadian Hurricane Centre issues statements/warnings/advisories for their territorial waters, with Mexico doing the same. Now mind you, i'm sure if they got a call from Miami recommending that they prepare as they're projected they're going to get slammed they will pay attention to it and probably issue statements as appropriate. but we provide the center and the modeling capabilities as per agreement with the other countries in the Atlantic and eastern Pacific basins. but they still issue the warnings as a sovereign country.

Good info. Thanks

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Good info. Thanks

no problem. besides, we might see this come into play, even with the 03z advisory just out. reason why: Nova Scotia and newfoundland aren't out of the woods yet. and anything up that way may affect oil and natural gas prices.

 

but if he did head to the rock, i have to admit after the lack of summer they had up there for a full month, enough to get the mets jokingly arrested (look up Eddie Sherr of Newfoundland TV [ntv] on that), they might just say why the hell not, bring Joaquin on.

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The eye of Joaquin contracted in satellite imagery late this

afternoon, but has become obscured by cirrus clouds since that time.
Recent microwave imagery and aircraft observations have not shown
any indications of an eyewall replacement, but the intensity appears
to have leveled off for now.

 

Surface and reconnaissance aircraft data indicate that Joaquin's

wind field has expanded during the past 24 hours. The initial and
forecast wind radii have been adjusted outward accordingly.

 

Based on microwave and recon, looks like NHC dismissed the outer wind maxima as being the beginning of an ERC and merely expansion of the wind field.

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GFS op came back west some and gained latitude a little quicker, flirted with trough, but eventually allowed Joaquin to miss and escape. We'll see if the Euro shifts west any but I doubt it. I really think the hurricane would need to already be gaining latitude at present time to increase the probability of being channeled northwest around the periphery/bend of the cutoff for the capture/phase solution. That just doesn't appear to be happening and therefore I don't expect the Euro to pick up on something to change its tune.

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