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El Nino and early Winter Discussion


jaxjagman

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Some more totals dating back to 1950

attachicon.gifatl.pngattachicon.gifcha.pngattachicon.gifjc.pngattachicon.gifknox.pngattachicon.gifnash.pngattachicon.gifmem.png

Great graphs, but they are suspect - mine included. I have my own opinions, but I am troubled with the apparent "loss" of data or under measurement of snow. No way that JC graph is correct for the past decade. I think there should be more normal or above years. Tnweathernut, you live there so you have the final word. They look way too low since 2001. I watched the airport lowball an event last winter. And I know people who live near the airport who dispute their measurements. So, take their graphs with a grain of salt. Even though he is at elevation, John1122 has far better records. I rely on his more than those. No knock on you, Jax.
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Great graphs, but they are suspect - mine included. I have my own opinions, but I am troubled with the apparent "loss" of data or under measurement of snow. No way that JC graph is correct for the past decade. I think there should be more normal or above years. Tnweathernut, you live there so you have the final word. They look way too low since 2001. I watched the airport lowball an event last winter. And I know people who live near the airport who dispute their measurements. So, take their graphs with a grain os salt. Even though he is at elevation, John1122 has far better records. I rely on his more than those. No knock on you, Jax.

The more you mention it ,it does look suspect,surprised coming from NOAA.But i went to the historical records for Nashville from the data it shows 1959-60 season as being the historic season with 38.5",so those departures on from that year alone would be off.Thanks for bringing that up.http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ohx/?n=otherrecords

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Great graphs, but they are suspect - mine included. I have my own opinions, but I am troubled with the apparent "loss" of data or under measurement of snow. No way that JC graph is correct for the past decade. I think there should be more normal or above years. Tnweathernut, you live there so you have the final word. They look way too low since 2001. I watched the airport lowball an event last winter. And I know people who live near the airport who dispute their measurements. So, take their graphs with a grain os salt. Even though he is at elevation, John1122 has far better records. I rely on his more than those. No knock on you, Jax.

 

I'm baffled by the lack of data by NWS offices. I was looking at monthly historical snow totals for Crossville the other day and there were a ton of "NR" (no record) listed, almost all of them from 1990-current. This is also a problem, as has been mentioned, with MRX. I've not checked Nashville by individual month, but I'll try later tonight,

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I'm baffled by the lack of data by NWS offices. I was looking at monthly historical snow totals for Crossville the other day and there were a ton of "NR" (no record) listed, almost all of them from 1990-current. This is also a problem, as has been mentioned, with MRX. I've not checked Nashville by individual month, but I'll try later tonight,

What gets even crazier is that I can find snow totals on graphs(for a certain time period), and the graphs were made several years ago. I will look at the same time frame on a more recent graphic or data entry(for the same time period) and the date will be missing or the totals lowered. Not to derail the thread, but those data sets need to be accurate and present or the historical record is skewed. But in terms of talking about the upcoming winter, it is possible that this winter may be its own analog. So, I hope they can find a way to store the data accurately and for posterity.

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Maybe Hillary got ahold of the MRX TRI snow data? I'm joking but really it is baffling at how all that data is missing. You would think in the technology era we live in (since the late 1990's that it would be impossible to accidentally lose the data). It just doesn't make any sense.

Okay back to this winter. I'm personally excited for another El Niño winter. I'm excited because I like the possibility of bigger storms even though there will be fewer opportunities to score. I'm a person that likes big events weather wise. I want heavy rain, heavy snow/blizzards, lots of lightning, strong winds, etc.

In el Niños we have the chance to get fewer and bigger events. With La Niñas we normally get nickeled and dimed. But with strong el Niños we have a strong chance of getting nothing. I'm willing to take that chance if it means having a better opportunity at a big storm. It may be a winter with the majority of storms having a cold rain (32-40 degrees). The mountains may have a slamming winter this year.

I think the big key to this winter since we have a +ENSO and a strongly +PNA will be the NAO and AO. We will have to have the NAO/AO be negative and sometimes strongly negative to have a chance for a cooler than normal winter since the El Niño is most likely going to be a (2+) strong one. If those indices are positive then we will probably torch for a significant period of time. I think it is way too early to decide if it will be a winter long torch, roller coaster of hot/ cold, or a 09/10 type winter.

WeatherBell posted their winter outlook (it is in the Southeast Forum) and it has 3-5 degrees below normal and 200% above normal snowfall. I think that is absurd to put out an outlook like that this early. I'm sure WeatherBell is trying to get more traffic to their website. There is no way you can make that claim accurately this early into the game. If last year taught me anything it is to be extremely skeptical of early outlooks and correlations (Siberian snow cover and -AO for example). Griteater made a nice post in the SE forum about summer -AO correlating to a -AO winter. Even with the good analysis he provided I'm still skeptical as too whether that would be the case this winter.

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One thing I have not noticed...the leaves here are changing early. Might be because it has been hotter than forty hells. But my yard has leaves in it every day now. The maples are turning red. Sycamores are turning slightly yellow. Dogwoods are red. Not huge changes by any means, but they are far less green than a couple of weeks ago. A little more than the usual late summer fried look. Saw a Tweet that the Apps in northern VA are beginning to show color on the ridge lines. They must know Godzilla is coming.

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Seeing leaves changing and blowing around here too, but it seems like every year at this time a few things are turning yellow and red and a few more are falling.

 

I know what you mean.  It could just be late summer...things definitely begin to turn then.  However, my crape myrtle in my back yard bloomed one month early this year. 

 

edit:  Just checked a few sites up and down the eastern seaboard...foliage looks to be on track for normal peak.  However, some sites where drought had persisted noted that foliage has a change some due to the stress on trees.  In other words, trees "decide" to shut it down early to save energy.  The early season drought might be causing this.  I am no biologist so take that for what its worth...two cents.

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Oh wow I should get an HDD trading account. If I sell to JB I may be able to retire early! I'm still looking for a mild and unfortunately cloudy winter across the Mid South and Tenn Valley.

 

However latest ENSO forecasts and Euro monthly charts hint at an early but sharp Nino peak and perhaps fade into late winter. That could set up February snow again. Could we go three years in a row? My main concern is avoiding clinical depression Columbus Day through Martin Luther King Day. Euro and CFS monthlies are incredibly cloudy. Storm chasing would make me less gloomy though.

 

Late winter precipitation maxima are in the Deep South, but that does not shut the door on snow up here. Keep in mind snow carries much less liquid than the rain farther south. John's snow and Jeff's mild are not mutually exclusive forecasts. Maybe both? Cheers!

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No denying it now. The leaves here are beginning to change. Maples in my neighborhood are pretty red as are dogwoods. I still can't decide if they are early, but I think they are a week or two early. Does not mean they will peak early. I also think the leaves are going to see a quick peak and be gone. May be due to dry conditions. IDK... But pretty significant changes here this week. Leaves should peak before or by the third week in October.

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