The 6th Annual SNE Lawn Thread - 2015

[Lava Rock]

my suggestion is to have the seed sprayed with cellulose. You can choose your own seed to mix with the cellulose. the advantage of the cellulose spray over just seeding is twofold (there may be others). 1st the cellulose tends to retain the moisture better (less watering) and 2nd the seed will root in the cellulose initially and then root in the soil (higher success rate). I did about a third of my lot (about .3 acres)  two years ago and had great success . good luck

thanks, but our landscaper doesn't have spraying equipment.

[JC-CT]

thanks, but our landscaper doesn't have spraying equipment.

My suggestion is to get good seed.

[Lava Rock]

My suggestion is to get good seed.

I've been using Pennington's northeast mix. Has 39% tall fescue. We like it, but wondering if we should consider anything else. We need 75lbs.

[JC-CT]

I've been using Pennington's northeast mix. Has 39% tall fescue. We like it, but wondering if we should consider anything else. We need 75lbs.

If I was putting in that much money and effort, I'd kill everything that's there and start over with some elite cultivars. Not sure if you were planning to start over or not, but you might as well if you are bringing in that much compost and will be watering like it was a new lawn anyway.

[Lava Rock]

If I was putting in that much money and effort, I'd kill everything that's there and start over with some elite cultivars. Not sure if you were planning to start over or not, but you might as well if you are bringing in that much compost and will be watering like it was a new lawn anyway.

I asked our landscaper and he didn't think it was necessary. I actually wanted to tear out all existing grass since our builder never put down enough topsoil 3 years ago.

[JC-CT]

I asked our landscaper and he didn't think it was necessary. I actually wanted to tear out all existing grass since our builder never put down enough topsoil 3 years ago.

Of course it's not necessary...it's about what you want your yard to look like. And it's not hard to kill a lawn though, just spray it with glyphosate or Forky's tears.

[SJonesWX]

I've been using Pennington's northeast mix. Has 39% tall fescue. We like it, but wondering if we should consider anything else. We need 75lbs.

i have used that seed for several years with excellent results. it has worked well in both sun and shade

[S&P]

thanks, but our landscaper doesn't have spraying equipment.

have them rent? may save you some $'s on labor, its your lawn

 

http://www.easyrentall.com/hydro-seeder.html

[Lava Rock]

have them rent? may save you some $'s on labor, its your lawn

http://www.easyrentall.com/hydro-seeder.html

Nice, thanks.

[S&P]

Nice, thanks.

no problem, good luck , if you get the seeding right you'll  have good long run results. shouldn't need the machine more than a couple of hours, after mixing they can spray your area in like 30 minutes if that

[Lava Rock]

no problem, good luck , if you get the seeding right you'll  have good long run results. shouldn't need the machine more than a couple of hours, after mixing they can spray your area in like 30 minutes if that

One other thought. We will cut the lawn super short 1st, then the compost will go down. 12 yards of compost will only provide ~0.25" depth. I had a hydroseed guy come out a few months ago and asked about just hydroseeding the lawn directly over the existing. He did not advise it since the since the seed wouldn't come into contact with the soil. Makes perfect sense, but is 0.25" compost depth sufficient on top of existing lawn if we decided to spray?

[dryslot]

If the ruler isn't sideways or shoved down into the dirt, then what's there is what's there. Long grass could artificially deflate a measurement, but it's not going to work the other way around.

Re: his sledding activities, I decline to comment.

 

A snow board works wonders, No one should be measuring on a lawn..............lol

[JC-CT]

A snow board works wonders, No one should be measuring on a lawn..............lol

A snow board is fine as long as you don't mow it too short.

[dryslot]

I would post some grass pics, But, I have a special type that needs watering but you don't have to mow

[Lava Rock]

In addition to topseeding our lawn, I'm thinking of removing the oak tree in the foreground below. Although it is healthy, it seems to draw a lot of water from the ground, hence the bare area around and in front of the trunk. Was thinking of cutting/stump grind, then planting a blue spruce 5-6' to the right of where the oak would be. Also, I think it would look more aesthetically pleasing to remove oak, since we have a couple already within the bounds of the mulch/shrub area in the background. I understand blue spruce trees grow large, but I'm looking for a species tree and always like the blue spruces.

[S&P]

One other thought. We will cut the lawn super short 1st, then the compost will go down. 12 yards of compost will only provide ~0.25" depth. I had a hydroseed guy come out a few months ago and asked about just hydroseeding the lawn directly over the existing. He did not advise it since the since the seed wouldn't come into contact with the soil. Makes perfect sense, but is 0.25" compost depth sufficient on top of existing lawn if we decided to spray?

didn't realize you were overseeding. not sure you can cut existing short enough for a .25" of compost to make a difference to hyrdoseed , but yeah that would be an issue. if the area your doing is pictured above you will have a tough time establishing a lawn with the oak tree. lots of shade (you looking a shade mix seed?) along with tree roots competing for water. if you are going to get rid of the tree do it before you touch the lawn

[JC-CT]

In addition to topseeding our lawn, I'm thinking of removing the oak tree in the foreground below. Although it is healthy, it seems to draw a lot of water from the ground, hence the bare area around and in front of the trunk. Was thinking of cutting/stump grind, then planting a blue spruce 5-6' to the right of where the oak would be. Also, I think it would look more aesthetically pleasing to remove oak, since we have a couple already within the bounds of the mulch/shrub area in the background. I understand blue spruce trees grow large, but I'm looking for a species tree and always like the blue spruces.

Aye, if the goal is a nice lawn and you are going to do it, then you might as well do it right. Take down the tree, grind the stump, kill the existing grass, determine what species of grass will thrive in your lawn's environment and will fit your intended use and maintenance desires, research the top performing NTEP cultivars, buy seed online or from local turf supplier, till/power rake/core aerate/otherwise disturb as much top soil as possible, spread compost and mix in with disturbed top soil, spread starter fertilizer, sow seed using desired method, get 4-way hose splitter, hoses and impact/rotary sprinklers (and timers if work/life schedule doesn't allow twice a day watering), water grass, mow when first grass seedlings get to 3", spread more fertilizer, enjoy new lawn.

Screw planting another tree if you want a nice lawn. Plus, I think the mulched area looks nice and is plenty given that your yard is surrounded by trees.

I would speculate that you could go with a kbg mix that includes a shade-tolerant cultivar like Bewitched for the areas closer the edges that probably get a decent amount of shade at some point during the day. But I'm just speculating, without seeing the whole lot and knowing which direction your lot faces, what the surrounding terrain looks like, how tall the trees are, etc...i.e., how much sun your lawn gets.

If you just want something that looks better than what you've got now, then your original plan will most likely get you that. You may or may not regret not just redoing it with top quality seed a year from now.

[dryslot]

Green asphalt is maintenance free

[Lava Rock]

Aye, if the goal is a nice lawn and you are going to do it, then you might as well do it right. Take down the tree, grind the stump, kill the existing grass, determine what species of grass will thrive in your lawn's environment and will fit your intended use and maintenance desires, research the top performing NTEP cultivars, buy seed online or from local turf supplier, till/power rake/core aerate/otherwise disturb as much top soil as possible, spread compost and mix in with disturbed top soil, spread starter fertilizer, sow seed using desired method, get 4-way hose splitter, hoses and impact/rotary sprinklers (and timers if work/life schedule doesn't allow twice a day watering), water grass, mow when first grass seedlings get to 3", spread more fertilizer, enjoy new lawn.

Screw planting another tree if you want a nice lawn. Plus, I think the mulched area looks nice and is plenty given that your yard is surrounded by trees.

I would speculate that you could go with a kbg mix that includes a shade-tolerant cultivar like Bewitched for the areas closer the edges that probably get a decent amount of shade at some point during the day. But I'm just speculating, without seeing the whole lot and knowing which direction your lot faces, what the surrounding terrain looks like, how tall the trees are, etc...i.e., how much sun your lawn gets.

If you just want something that looks better than what you've got now, then your original plan will most likely get you that. You may or may not regret not just redoing it with top quality seed a year from now.

awesome, thanks for the tips. The area in the pic is the northeast side of house. Front of house faces southwest. Lots of sun and heat, which is I why I'd prefer sun tolerant seed. My wife likes the oak tree, so we'll probably leave it. Any good online seed places you know of? I saw a couple, but not sure how reputable they are.

[JC-CT]

awesome, thanks for the tips. The area in the pic is the northeast side of house. Front of house faces southwest. Lots of sun and heat, which is I why I'd prefer sun tolerant seed. My wife likes the oak tree, so we'll probably leave it. Any good online seed places you know of? I saw a couple, but not sure how reputable they are.

The Hogan Company, Seed Super Store, Pawnee Buttes, are some that I've heard positive things about. Seed Super Store is expensive, especially at low quantities, but their seed selection is really, really good. Even if you just went with their premixed sunny blend, you would be very happy.

[Lava Rock]

The Hogan Company, Seed Super Store, Pawnee Buttes, are some that I've heard positive things about. Seed Super Store is expensive, especially at low quantities, but their seed selection is really, really good. Even if you just went with their premixed sunny blend, you would be very happy.

I was just thinking about the Penningtons Sun/Shade mix I recently put down. It says it's 39% tall fescue. It looks nice where we put it, but then when I started researching "large clumps of grass" online, it says that tall fescue grows that way. The Penningtons is thin bladed, while parts of our old lawn have large clumps and are broad bladed. I'll check the label again, but I'm confused. Will the stuff I seeded eventually grow into clumps? Our builder clearly used the cheapest stuff he had.

[backedgeapproaching]

Aye, if the goal is a nice lawn and you are going to do it, then you might as well do it right. Take down the tree, grind the stump, kill the existing grass, determine what species of grass will thrive in your lawn's environment and will fit your intended use and maintenance desires, research the top performing NTEP cultivars, buy seed online or from local turf supplier, till/power rake/core aerate/otherwise disturb as much top soil as possible, spread compost and mix in with disturbed top soil, spread starter fertilizer, sow seed using desired method, get 4-way hose splitter, hoses and impact/rotary sprinklers (and timers if work/life schedule doesn't allow twice a day watering), water grass, mow when first grass seedlings get to 3", spread more fertilizer, enjoy new lawn.

Screw planting another tree if you want a nice lawn. Plus, I think the mulched area looks nice and is plenty given that your yard is surrounded by trees.

I would speculate that you could go with a kbg mix that includes a shade-tolerant cultivar like Bewitched for the areas closer the edges that probably get a decent amount of shade at some point during the day. But I'm just speculating, without seeing the whole lot and knowing which direction your lot faces, what the surrounding terrain looks like, how tall the trees are, etc...i.e., how much sun your lawn gets.

If you just want something that looks better than what you've got now, then your original plan will most likely get you that. You may or may not regret not just redoing it with top quality seed a year from now.

 

If you go with Bewitched KBG seed and do pretty much everything JC said you will probably have one of the better lawns in the entire state of Maine...lol.  It seems like what he said is a lot of work, but it is totally doable.  I did pretty much the same thing 2 years ago at my last house (sans the tilling/power rake) and it came out great.

 

Do you think there are any soil issues in your yard?  Its looks pretty sparse, doesn't even look like many weeds are growing there. Definitely want to bring in some good compost to mix in. I know the Oak might be sucking up water, but you can still have a nice lawn with Oaks--doesn't DIT have a yard full of Oaks? And his yard looks pretty good.

 

I agree with not  needing a blue spruce or any tree in the spot where you are taking the Oak down.  If you do, I would get something smaller than what a blue spruce could grow to. You could always just do the lawn and add a bed next year with plants/perennials/etc if you think the area still needs it.  I do like the bed by the front of the driveway.

[backedgeapproaching]

I was just thinking about the Penningtons Sun/Shade mix I recently put down. It says it's 39% tall fescue. It looks nice where we put it, but then when I started researching "large clumps of grass" online, it says that tall fescue grows that way. The Penningtons is thin bladed, while parts of our old lawn have large clumps and are broad bladed. I'll check the label again, but I'm confused. Will the stuff I seeded eventually grow into clumps? Our builder clearly used the cheapest stuff he had.

Tall fescue is a clumping grass.  It is normally thicker bladed than KBG and Fine Fescue and even Rye.  KBG spreads via rhizomes which gives it more of that "knitted" look.  Even the best Tall Fescue cultivars will be thicker bladed than most KBG.  My lawn at my last house was 100% TTTF(turf type tall fescue) But that was down in much warmer climate in extreme southern PA. You could do a 100% KBG lawn and it would be perfect your climate. Most people view KBG superior because of its darker color, fine texture, dwarf growth habit, self repairing ability(spreading)

 

To get seed with only KBG in it,  you will have to get it from local turf specialists or from one of the online retailers JC mentioned.  Most seed you buy at big box retailers will be some sort of mix with KBG, TF, Fine Fescue, Rye--normally 3 of those 4 or all 4.

 

Right, builders normally use cheaper seed because 98% of homeowners wont have any clue of know the difference.

[Lava Rock]

Tall fescue is a clumping grass. It is normally thicker bladed than KBG and Fine Fescue and even Rye. KBG spreads via rhizomes which gives it more of that "knitted" look. Even the best Tall Fescue cultivars will be thicker bladed than most KBG. My lawn at my last house was 100% TTTF(turf type tall fescue) But that was down in much warmer climate in extreme southern PA. You could do a 100% KBG lawn and it would be perfect your climate. Most people view KBG superior because of its darker color, fine texture, dwarf growth habit, self repairing ability(spreading)

To get seed with only KBG in it, you will have to get it from local turf specialists or from one of the online retailers JC mentioned. Most seed you buy at big box retailers will be some sort of mix with KBG, TF, Fine Fescue, Rye--normally 3 of those 4 or all 4.

Right, builders normally use cheaper seed because 98% of homeowners wont have any clue of know the difference.

Fwiw, here's the Pennington's label. The tall fescue from this seed looks nothing like the crappy clump grass in the yard.

[Lava Rock]

Hot damn. Took a look at bewitched kbg and cost is $350 for 50lbs. Landscaper charging $200 for 75lbs. I asked him what type of seed but haven't heard back.

[JC-CT]

Fwiw, here's the Pennington's label. The tall fescue from this seed looks nothing like the crappy clump grass in the yard.

The crappy clump grass is probably K31. Does it look like this?

Not that it matters...if you have "crappy clump grass" in your yard, then all the more reason to nuke it.

And I have experience with the Pennington's sun and shade mix with a virtually identical composition to the one you posted. And to be honest, I think it's one of the best you can get off a big box shelf. But if you are going to do this project, then why go for a 6.5 when you could get a 10 for $100-200 more? It doesn't make sense given the money you are already putting into it.

Tall fescue is a clumping grass. It is normally thicker bladed than KBG and Fine Fescue and even Rye. KBG spreads via rhizomes which gives it more of that "knitted" look. Even the best Tall Fescue cultivars will be thicker bladed than most KBG. My lawn at my last house was 100% TTTF(turf type tall fescue) But that was down in much warmer climate in extreme southern PA. You could do a 100% KBG lawn and it would be perfect your climate. Most people view KBG superior because of its darker color, fine texture, dwarf growth habit, self repairing ability(spreading)

To get seed with only KBG in it, you will have to get it from local turf specialists or from one of the online retailers JC mentioned. Most seed you buy at big box retailers will be some sort of mix with KBG, TF, Fine Fescue, Rye--normally 3 of those 4 or all 4.

Right, builders normally use cheaper seed because 98% of homeowners wont have any clue of know the difference.

A 100% elite TTTF lawn can look great, don't get me wrong, and does just fine in SNE. And tall fescue can become virtually indestructible once it develops deep roots (I have had to spray K31 with glyphosate up to three times to kill the stuff). But I agree that KBG has advantages, primarily the rhizomatous growth but it is also extremely cold tolerant, as long as it gets sufficient sun. I think the big boxes do sell kbg-only mixes, but they tend to older cultivars because they aren't under patent. I saw a bag of Scott's in Ace Hardware with Midnight as the highest percentage by weight (even higher by seed count) once, and only once. But I have no idea about the rest of the mix, and it wasn't one of the kbg-only mixes I was referring to.

Anyway, I lol about the contractors mixes. My next door neighbor had his septic redone, and they graded and reseeded his lawn with a contractors' mix. Looked nice for a year. Then when the annual rye didn't come back, he is left with about 4 perennial rye plants per square foot that grow to a foot high and you can still see more dirt than grass. And of course, lots and lots of weeds.

[JC-CT]

Hot damn. Took a look at bewitched kbg and cost is $350 for 50lbs. Landscaper charging $200 for 75lbs. I asked him what type of seed but haven't heard back.

Would you spend premium $ on premium building materials to build a house that isn't the house you wanted?

If you are going to spend a significant amount of money to improve the appearance of your lawn, then don't cheap out and cut corners on the most important variable, the grass itself.

[JC-CT]

Hot damn. Took a look at bewitched kbg and cost is $350 for 50lbs. Landscaper charging $200 for 75lbs. I asked him what type of seed but haven't heard back.

Also, keep in mind that KBG seed is smaller than other seeds, so you are getting more seed per pound. This will be reflected in a lower recommended seeding rate.

[Lava Rock]

Would you spend premium $ on premium building materials to build a house that isn't the house you wanted?

If you are going to spend a significant amount of money to improve the appearance of your lawn, then don't cheap out and cut corners on the most important variable, the grass itself.

Yeah, I won't buy cheap seed, was just surprised how costly it can be. Think I'll go with a blend. The SS5000 looks good.

http://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100002/ss5000-sunny-mixture?zip=04071&type=sunny

[JC-CT]

Yeah, I won't buy cheap seed, was just surprised how costly it can be. Think I'll go with a blend. The SS5000 looks good.

http://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100002/ss5000-sunny-mixture?zip=04071&type=sunny

I think you'd be really happy with that, but it does have some rye which tends to grow faster, as well as some fine fescue. The rye and fine fescue are both high performers in ntep trials in the northeast, however, and the blend is still mostly KBG.

It is definitely important, and not well understood by the typical consumer, that composition by weight and composition by seed count are two very different things.