Spring Banter - Pushing up Tulips

[powderfreak]

Swiss Alps or Mount Tolland? It was hard to tell from the plane today! Pretty sweet undercast though!

 

Flying over the Alps is one of the most awe-inspiring things... every time I fly into that area its just mind blowing how big those things are.  The vertical relief is hard to comprehend.

[amarshall]

Currently flying fll to lga. Nasty turbulence and going to be real bad in NY

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[powderfreak]

I love it. I don't mind the prospect of having snow on my lawn into early May some years...I consider it a badge of honor. You can see the snow covered area on today's MODIS image. The red dot represents the approximate location of my land. That plateau stands out well and has a climate similar to far NNE despite its low latitude.

 

Screen Shot 2015-04-19 at 11.23.04 PM.png

 

The summers are probably lovely there too with no need for AC. The maximum summer average high is probably around 75° F or so in late July, and days above 85° F are rare. To reach or exceed 85° F there, North Adams would need to be at least 92° or 93° F, which probably only happens a couple times a summer, if it all. 

 

Definitely a NNE climo there... the dense forest definitely plays a big role there it looks like.  That looks a heck of a lot more dense than any forest up here at 2,000ft.  Even in the Bolton Valley community at 2,100-2,300ft its mostly open hardwoods, open enough to easily ski through.  That looks like the 3,000ft level up here where you start getting more heavy conifers mixed with occasional hardwoods.

 

My guess is that's because down there, that is the high elevation plateau that isn't necessarily protected by surrounding higher terrain.  Like up here you can be at 2,000ft but still be "sheltered" by the 3,500ft+ elevations around it.  Maybe it allows for more hardwoods or something?  Driving RT 9 (?) across there past Woodford State Park area it just feels really high up because of the vegetation...similar to like the Whites and Adirondacks where you get into that really dense evergreen forests.  Up here it seems you have to go really far up to hit that for whatever reason...but that's also why the Northern Greens have the best tree skiing in the east by far, for some reason that uber-dense forest just isn't there at comparable elevations.  I have no idea why that is.

 

Amazing vegetation...but that plateau is the second wettest place in Vermont aside from the northern Spine, so it makes sense its a lot of soft-woods.  Very wet climate.

 

[CT Rain]

Flying over the Alps is one of the most awe-inspiring things... every time I fly into that area its just mind blowing how big those things are.  The vertical relief is hard to comprehend.

 

Yeah it was really neat. Couldn't see much flying into Milan but on the way back it was pretty incredible. 

[HIPPYVALLEY]

Any flakes mixing in at MPMs and HippieChris's?

Nothing here but reports of flakes mixed in out in Charlemont.

[TalcottWx]

I love it. I don't mind the prospect of having snow on my lawn into early May some years...I consider it a badge of honor. You can see the snow covered area on today's MODIS image. The red dot represents the approximate location of my land. That plateau stands out well and has a climate similar to far NNE despite its low latitude.

Screen Shot 2015-04-19 at 11.23.04 PM.png

The summers are probably lovely there too with no need for AC. The maximum summer average high is probably around 75° F or so in late July, and days above 85° F are rare. To reach or exceed 85° F there, North Adams would need to be at least 92° or 93° F, which probably only happens a couple times a summer, if it all.

Those numbers are ideal. Not a lot of marine junk to deal with either.

[tamarack]

Definitely a NNE climo there... the dense forest definitely plays a big role there it looks like.  That looks a heck of a lot more dense than any forest up here at 2,000ft.  Even in the Bolton Valley community at 2,100-2,300ft its mostly open hardwoods, open enough to easily ski through.  That looks like the 3,000ft level up here where you start getting more heavy conifers mixed with occasional hardwoods.

 

My guess is that's because down there, that is the high elevation plateau that isn't necessarily protected by surrounding higher terrain.  Like up here you can be at 2,000ft but still be "sheltered" by the 3,500ft+ elevations around it.  Maybe it allows for more hardwoods or something?  Driving RT 9 (?) across there past Woodford State Park area it just feels really high up because of the vegetation...similar to like the Whites and Adirondacks where you get into that really dense evergreen forests.  Up here it seems you have to go really far up to hit that for whatever reason...but that's also why the Northern Greens have the best tree skiing in the east by far, for some reason that uber-dense forest just isn't there at comparable elevations.  I have no idea why that is.

 

Amazing vegetation...but that plateau is the second wettest place in Vermont aside from the northern Spine, so it makes sense its a lot of soft-woods.  Very wet climate.

 

I once read (or was told by a professor) that a 400' change in elevation was equivalent (for climate) to one degree of latitude.  That would put 2200' in S.VT about the same as Quebec City.  I think that soils may be equally important to the vegetation as elevation, until one gets really high.  The whole region has been glaciated, but some areas were left with loose till, which tends toward good drainage and fertility which support hardwoods, while others have wet compact till where hardwoods do poorly and spruce, fir, hemlock, cedar take over.  Then there are outwash areas from the big meltoff, droughty soils where pines can dominate.

 

Ginxy - I've also read that the small rodents are the chief agents harboring deer ticks.  After the extended deep (critter shielding) snowpack of 2013-14, I expected a plague of ticks last summer and saw surprisingly few.  This year the pack was long-lived but didn't get deep enough here to shelter the tiny beasts until the January blizzard.  Both deer and mice/voles carry the ticks, but the former are much preferred on the table - not that I've tried the latter.

[powderfreak]

Didn't have to go far to see white rain at the house change to pounding snow...

[Ginx snewx]

Little more than graupel and snow showers

[Nittany88]

Definitely a NNE climo there... the dense forest definitely plays a big role there it looks like.  That looks a heck of a lot more dense than any forest up here at 2,000ft.  Even in the Bolton Valley community at 2,100-2,300ft its mostly open hardwoods, open enough to easily ski through.  That looks like the 3,000ft level up here where you start getting more heavy conifers mixed with occasional hardwoods.

 

My guess is that's because down there, that is the high elevation plateau that isn't necessarily protected by surrounding higher terrain.  Like up here you can be at 2,000ft but still be "sheltered" by the 3,500ft+ elevations around it.  Maybe it allows for more hardwoods or something?  Driving RT 9 (?) across there past Woodford State Park area it just feels really high up because of the vegetation...similar to like the Whites and Adirondacks where you get into that really dense evergreen forests.  Up here it seems you have to go really far up to hit that for whatever reason...but that's also why the Northern Greens have the best tree skiing in the east by far, for some reason that uber-dense forest just isn't there at comparable elevations.  I have no idea why that is.

 

Amazing vegetation...but that plateau is the second wettest place in Vermont aside from the northern Spine, so it makes sense its a lot of soft-woods.  Very wet climate.

 

 

 

A lot of the lack of softwoods across much of Vermont has to do with the massive deforestation and clear-cutting that took place in the 1800's. Prior to it, over 90% of Vermont was forested (and mainly softwoods), but by the end of the 19th century, only 30% of forests remained, and much of the loss was the softwoods. Since then, the land was re-forested but mostly by the rapid growing hardwoods.

 

UVM has a good PPT on it:

http://www.uvm.edu/landscape/learn/Downloads/scrapbooks/forestsVT.ppt

[CapturedNature]

A lot of the lack of softwoods across much of Vermont has to do with the massive deforestation and clear-cutting that took place in the 1800's. Prior to it, over 90% of Vermont was forested (and mainly softwoods), but by the end of the 19th century, only 30% of forests remained, and much of the loss was the softwoods. Since then, the land was re-forested but mostly by the rapid growing hardwoods.

 

UVM has a good PPT on it:

http://www.uvm.edu/landscape/learn/Downloads/scrapbooks/forestsVT.ppt

 

The same is true here in CT where you find a lot of oak forests and that was be design, not necessarily by nature.  Charcoal was huge industry in parts of the state so when the state forests came about they generally protected and favored the oaks because by then they had other uses.  Thankfully there are some other more natural forests that have a better mix and I've always enjoyed the evergreens in my town and in Union.  The Hollows are great examples of what a more natural mix looks around here compared to some of the state forests that contain more oaks.

[backedgeapproaching]

A lot of the lack of softwoods across much of Vermont has to do with the massive deforestation and clear-cutting that took place in the 1800's. Prior to it, over 90% of Vermont was forested (and mainly softwoods), but by the end of the 19th century, only 30% of forests remained, and much of the loss was the softwoods. Since then, the land was re-forested but mostly by the rapid growing hardwoods.

 

UVM has a good PPT on it:

http://www.uvm.edu/landscape/learn/Downloads/scrapbooks/forestsVT.ppt

Interesting. Nice presentation, that makes sense about the lack of softwoods in certain areas.

[eekuasepinniW]

A lot of the lack of softwoods across much of Vermont has to do with the massive deforestation and clear-cutting that took place in the 1800's. Prior to it, over 90% of Vermont was forested (and mainly softwoods), but by the end of the 19th century, only 30% of forests remained, and much of the loss was the softwoods. Since then, the land was re-forested but mostly by the rapid growing hardwoods.

 

UVM has a good PPT on it:

http://www.uvm.edu/landscape/learn/Downloads/scrapbooks/forestsVT.ppt

IIRC, the same applies to parts of NH.  The clear dividing lines between soft and hardwoods is most obvious in the presidentials.  They clearcut as high as terrain allowed.

 

Or at least that's what the guy on the tour van up mt. washington said.

[weatherwiz]

Well today is going to suck walking to the bus stop for class

[Sn0waddict]

44F and rain. Talk about miserable.

[Brian5671]

44F and rain. Talk about miserable.

Only saving grace is that it's a Monday.    (and washing the pollen away)

[powderfreak]

Little more than graupel and snow showers

Down in the center of the village the grass was almost covered with sleet...much more than I had. They could've plowed the Shaws supermarket parking lot haha. Saw a pretty bad accident due to sleet on the road. Pickup track slammed a tree head first and all sorts of emergency vehicles were there.

It's amazing how I see no accidents all winter, but a 1-2 hour period of heavy sleet in April has folks sliding all over the place.

[Sn0waddict]

Only saving grace is that it's a Monday. (and washing the pollen away)

Yep, I'm very happy the warm weather was over the weekend and this crap held off until today. Next weekends looks nice too, though considerably cooler.

[weatherwiz]

When is this supposed to end?

[backedgeapproaching]

Pretty intense gusts for the past hour--have to be pushing 50-60mph. Lost 2 downspout gutters that detached and a birch snapped. I'm in kind of sheltered area too, haven't seen much wind at all since I moved here in NOV.

[wxmanmitch]

I once read (or was told by a professor) that a 400' change in elevation was equivalent (for climate) to one degree of latitude.  That would put 2200' in S.VT about the same as Quebec City.  I think that soils may be equally important to the vegetation as elevation, until one gets really high.  The whole region has been glaciated, but some areas were left with loose till, which tends toward good drainage and fertility which support hardwoods, while others have wet compact till where hardwoods do poorly and spruce, fir, hemlock, cedar take over.  Then there are outwash areas from the big meltoff, droughty soils where pines can dominate.

 

Ginxy - I've also read that the small rodents are the chief agents harboring deer ticks.  After the extended deep (critter shielding) snowpack of 2013-14, I expected a plague of ticks last summer and saw surprisingly few.  This year the pack was long-lived but didn't get deep enough here to shelter the tiny beasts until the January blizzard.  Both deer and mice/voles carry the ticks, but the former are much preferred on the table - not that I've tried the latter.

 

 

That seems a little too dramatic. If we applied that rule of thumb to Lenox, MA latitude (lets round it up to 42.5° N and use 1.2K elevation for simplicity), that would put me in the same climate as sea level at 45.5° N (Montreal, QB) and 2.2K in S VT  (~43° N) in the same climate as about 48.5° N (International Falls, MN). I'm not quite as cold as Montreal and S VT is not as cold as International Falls.

 

While very general and based on my personal observation and not necessarily scientific data, my rule of thumb has always been that for every 1000' of elevation gain in the E US, it would be the equivalent of gaining 1.5° of latitude. So for instance at my latitude, this rule would put me in roughly the same climate as sea level at 44° N or about Brunswick, ME or Middlebury, VT. This, of course, ignores things like proximity to a water body, mountains, urban heat islands, etc., so it's overly simplistic. But alas, if we apply it to 2.2K in S VT, you'd get a climate that's roughly equivalent to sea level somewhere between 46 and 47° N, which is N ME latitude. That plateau likely has a temperature profile that is more like Caribou or Presque Isle, ME than International Falls, MN.

 

We could argue about which rule is better, but without some real hard data it will be hard to prove which one is best. These rules work better for temperatures than for precipitation since the latter will be greater in the higher elevations.

[Damage In Tolland]

That seems a little too dramatic. If we applied that rule of thumb to Lenox, MA latitude (lets round it up to 42.5° N and use 1.2K elevation for simplicity), that would put me in the same climate as sea level at 45.5° N (Montreal, QB) and 2.2K in S VT (~43° N) in the same climate as about 48.5° N (International Falls, MN). I'm not quite as cold as Montreal and S VT is not as cold as International Falls.

While very general and based on my personal observation and not necessarily scientific data, my rule of thumb has always been that for every 1000' of elevation gain in the E US, it would be the equivalent of gaining 1.5° of latitude. So for instance at my latitude, this rule would put me in roughly the same climate as sea level at 44° N or about Brunswick, ME or Middlebury, VT. This, of course, ignores things like proximity to a water body, mountains, urban heat islands, etc., so it's overly simplistic. But alas, if we apply it to 2.2K in S VT, you'd get a climate that's roughly equivalent to sea level somewhere between 46 and 47° N, which is N ME latitude. That plateau likely has a temperature profile that is more like Caribou or Presque Isle, ME than International Falls, MN.

We could argue about which rule is better, but without some real hard data it will be hard to prove which one is best. These rules work better for temperatures than for precipitation since the latter will be greater in the higher elevations.

Which is why we call TOL as ORH in the climate center

[CoastalWx]

I thought the old fable was above 500-600' was a degree in latitude, but it's really dependent on so many things relative to your elevation. Like, whether you are more prone to upslope etc.

[Brian5671]

When is this supposed to end?

there's a break this afternoon,but a 2nd batch develops towards evening

[Nittany88]

Pretty intense gusts for the past hour--have to be pushing 50-60mph. Lost 2 downspout gutters that detached and a birch snapped. I'm in kind of sheltered area too, haven't seen much wind at all since I moved here in NOV.

 

If you're along the western slopes of the Greens as your location icon suggests, you're in a prime SE-downslope zone.

[Damage In Tolland]

HRRR and hi res NAM both showing some big bangers overnight tonight. Might be a nice light and bang show

[OceanStWx]

Just wrapped up the first round of the year...

 

as mangled flakes begin to mix in with the rain.

[amarshall]

Stuck in NY at LGA. 6 hr delay with 2 little kids. Fml

[Brian5671]

Stuck in NY at LGA. 6 hr delay with 2 little kids. Fml

rent a car!

[amarshall]

If it was us two, we would. Kids have been in an airport since 7am