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Southern Ontario Winter '14-'15 Discussion


harrisale

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Looks interesting, yes, but I wouldn't jump on the storm wagon yet. We've seen plenty of fantasy storms that turned out to be nothing once we got closer. One example is the Jan 22-24th storm potential.

 

Would be nice to get some help from the Atlantic. With a persistent -EPO, we may have the cold air, but it can be hard to get a true phased storm without blocking in the Arctic (-AO/NAO).

 

Lets see! I used to be an avid weather hobbyist in the Winter back then, but 2011-12 ended up killing my desire quite a bit. 

 

Verbatim its 10-12" of high ratio snow on the 12z euro but of course its worth very little at this range. If the model still has the system in some capacity around D5-6 then I'm getting very interesting. 

 

The bolded is a bit of a head scratcher...

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You know when a winter sucks when you can't even get a decent clipper.

 

We haven't had a decent clipper in years. I'm thinking not since the late 00s. I remember some correlation between the PDO state and clipper tracks mentioned, and how the current long-term PDO state is unfavourable for us. Don't remember the details though.

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We haven't had a decent clipper in years. I'm thinking not since the late 00s. I remember some correlation between the PDO state and clipper tracks mentioned, and how the current long-term PDO state is unfavourable for us. Don't remember the details though.

The jan 05 clipper was pretty good.
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We haven't had a decent clipper in years. I'm thinking not since the late 00s. I remember some correlation between the PDO state and clipper tracks mentioned, and how the current long-term PDO state is unfavourable for us. Don't remember the details though.

 

Statistically speaking, a -PDO is better for our region than a +PDO. The link between ENSO and PDO still remains a mystery, but during a -PDO we often seen an increased number of La Nina's. The state of the QBO is crucial in La Nina's because it can affect the extent of the Aleutian Ridge and positioning (EPO). 

 

post-6644-0-85659000-1421713894_thumb.pn

 

Negative EPO 

 

https://kcstormfront.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/epo3.png

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We haven't had a decent clipper in years. I'm thinking not since the late 00s. I remember some correlation between the PDO state and clipper tracks mentioned, and how the current long-term PDO state is unfavourable for us. Don't remember the details though.

Most recent clipper that was significant around here was 3/1/14. Dumped ~3" on the city.

 

Our climo doesn't really favour >3-4" amounts with clippers as the stronger ones that dump out of the plains tend to weaken E of Lk Mi/Huron and usually track S of us. When we get a more favourable track they tend to come out of NW On where QPF is rather sparse. 

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Most recent clipper that was significant around here was 3/1/14. Dumped ~3" on the city.

 

Our climo doesn't really favour >3-4" amounts with clippers as the stronger ones that dump out of the plains tend to weaken E of Lk Mi/Huron and usually track S of us. When we get a more favourable track they tend to come out of NW On where QPF is rather sparse. 

 

Funny you say that. I'm sure it's a valid theory but the old mantra (especially on TWN) was that clippers are strengthened when they cross over the warmer waters of the Great Lakes.

 

18z GFS is like a joke. Seriously, this winter has a sort of 2009-10 feeling to it, although I'm sure the AO and NAO indicies would say differently.

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Not a single threat on the 12z GFS for the GTA. Winter fail. I'm throwing the towel for this Winter. I may get criticized for that statement, but at the rate were going right now, this Winter has good chance at being the driest on record in terms of precipitation and maybe a top 5 or top 10 least snowiest. 

 

To further reiterate what i wrote above, only 12.4cm has been recorded at YYZ since Dec 11th. Thats bad!

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Not a single threat on the 12z GFS for the GTA. Winter fail. I'm throwing the towel for this Winter. I may get criticized for that statement, but at the rate were going right now, this Winter has good chance at being the driest on record in terms of precipitation and maybe a top 5 or top 10 least snowiest.

To further reiterate what i wrote above, only 12.4cm has been recorded at YYZ since Dec 11th. Thats bad!

Are you really that surprised! I mean where in an El Niño.
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Are you really that surprised! I mean where in an El Niño.

 

 

This. With a few notable exceptions, El Nino years are not snowy ones for the GTA. In fact, if memory serves me right, the biggest snow event of the 2009-10 El Nino in Toronto was in mid December...just like this year.

 

All the El Nino's since 1950 and the snowfall outcome at YYZ. 

 

1951-52: 184.3cm

1953-54: 124.5cm (almost a carbon copy of this Winter so far)

1957-58: 95.5cm (decent)

1958-59: 145.9cm

1963-64: 158cm

1965-66: 131.5cm

1968-69: 83.1cm

1969-70: 153.7cm

1972-73: 109.3cm

1976-77: 122.2cm

1977-78: 143.1cm

1982-83: 71.5cm

1986-87: 115.2cm

1987-88: 78.4cm

1991-92: 96cm (decent)

1994-95: 88.8cm

1997-98: 87.6cm

2002-03: 150.7cm

2004-05: 148.1cm

2006-07: 60.3cm

2009-10: 52.4cm 

 

Average: 114.3cm (seasonal avg at yyz is 115cm). 

 

Some really bad Winters in there, but most of them occurred in the  late 80s and 90s as you can see above. If you subtract 2006-07 and 2009-10 from that list you get 120.5cm, which is slightly above the average. El Nino's generally speaking aren't bad for our region. The last good one was 2002-03. El Nino's unlike La nina's influence the Pacific jet and this allows more storms to form across the south and if the set-up is ideal, we can get fully phased storms to cut through the region. La Nina's coming off an El Nino can do wonders in the right environment. Some examples include 2007-08, 1998-99 (Jan/Mar 99) and 1995-96 in recent years. So take your pick. I don't know what the answer is, but these last three El Nino's have been sh!t for our region. 

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The clipper later this week looks intriguing to say the least. GFS/GGEM have a decent hit for the GTA (~5cm) with heavier amounts towards London/Windsor. Still 70+ hours out so it could still change track .No definite solution just yet. Hoping for the best. Haven't analyzed the upper atmosphere charts yet.

And after that more Zzzz!!

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The clipper later this week looks intriguing to say the least. GFS/GGEM have a decent hit for the GTA (~5cm) with heavier amounts towards London/Windsor. Still 70+ hours out so it could still change track .No definite solution just yet. Hoping for the best. Haven't analyzed the upper atmosphere charts yet.

And after that more Zzzz!!

If this clipper misses us, I'm done with this winter. Done!.
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I can almost guarantee you that it will. I'll put 5 bucks on it. Nothing measurable at YYZ.

 

Looks like a Detroit-Cleveland special, going to split the uprights for us. Toronto too far north and Fort Wayne-Columbus a rain/snow mix, although CMH might see a little love.

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Yup. You'll pass us by this time next week.

 

I'd say living in the lake belt has made this winter more bearable, but honestly, it hasn't been much better here.

 

Punt this Winter, it sucks!!  I've already thrown my towel. At best we'll finish the season with maybe 70cm? I can't believe were seeing yet another futile Winter in a span of just 5 years!! -15C the other day and no snow on the ground, painful! 

 

Edit: Can't bet on clippers anymore. Since 08-09, they haven't been good for us. 

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Punt this Winter, it sucks!!  I've already thrown my towel. At best we'll finish the season with maybe 70cm? I can't believe were seeing yet another futile Winter in a span of just 5 years!! -15C the other day and no snow on the ground, painful! 

 

Edit: Can't bet on clippers anymore. Since 08-09, they haven't been good for us. 

 

1. You've thrown in the towel. Duly noted. So I assume if we do get a snowy period or snowstorm you won't be posting?

 

2. At best we'll end up with 70cm? So at best we'll only see another ~25cm the rest of the winter? Do you even know what the phrase "at best" means? That scenario is the worst of the worst. The exact opposite of "at best".

 

It's ok to be frustrated. It's been a rough stretch that doesn't look like it'll be ending soon. But still, think before you post nonsense.

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Well, the clippers are duds, but one thing Toronto-Hamilton corridor is going to have to look out for is the long-fused E flow the NAM is spitting out beginning around 66 hours once the clipper slp moves to our south. Delta t's look really good (probably in the 14-17c range). Question is going to be moisture/inversion heights (shear is definitely going to be a problem, but it shouldn't be prohibitive). Too early to get bogged down in these details, but something to keep an eye on.

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Well, the clippers are duds, but one thing Toronto-Hamilton corridor is going to have to look out for is the long-fused E flow the NAM is spitting out beginning around 66 hours once the clipper slp moves to our south. Delta t's look really good (probably in the 14-17c range). Question is going to be moisture/inversion heights (shear is definitely going to be a problem, but it shouldn't be prohibitive). Too early to get bogged down in these details, but something to keep an eye on.

 

Flow looking to have too much of a northerly component for Toronto now, although it's close. Still should keep an eye on it, especially if that secondary clipper that rides the coattails of main clipper ends up a touch stronger.

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The GFS shows 8-13cm in the GTA for the Thursday-Friday clipper. Still 5 days out but definitely worth watching, lol . There hasn't been much of that for this Winter, haha. The -EPO is fuelling the polar jet-stream and this is creating alot of clipper potentials for the region. Unfortunately, we haven't gotten a noteworthy clipper yet because they've either been south of us or north of us with nothing in the middle. 

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Flow looking to have too much of a northerly component for Toronto now, although it's close. Still should keep an eye on it, especially if that secondary clipper that rides the coattails of main clipper ends up a touch stronger.

nam hires is showing something.

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Here is the 12z Euro text output for the late week clipper. 

 

yyz btw. 

 

 

ECMWF FORECAST FOR: YYZ    LAT=  43.67 LON=  -79.63 

                                            12Z JAN25
                 2 M     850     SFC     SFC     700    6 HR     500    1000 
                 TMP     TMP     PRS     RHU     RHU     QPF     HGT     500 
                 ©     ©    (MB)    (PCT)   (PCT)   (IN)    (DM)     THK 
 

THU 18Z 29-JAN  -4.1    -7.7    1016      73     100    0.08     546     533    
FRI 00Z 30-JAN  -2.9    -8.2    1011      89      99    0.19     542     534    
FRI 06Z 30-JAN  -3.2    -8.5    1010      93      99    0.12     538     531    
FRI 12Z 30-JAN  -5.1    -9.4    1014      85      91    0.03     534     523    

 

 

 

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