U.S. and China, After Months of Talks, Reach Deal on Climate Change

[chubbs]

Scale won't be a problem for solar if costs continue to decrease. The resource is abundant and mass production in factories can be ramped quickly. 

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-29/while-you-were-getting-worked-up-over-oil-prices-this-just-happened-to-solar.html

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/29/us-solar-iea-electricity-idUKKCN0HO11K20140929

 

 

[Jonger]

Until battery technology advances, all emission free power sources besides nuclear are going to remain niche and window dressing. You would have to cover the entire planet in solar and wind to replace fossil fuels today.

[Hambone]

Economically speaking this deal is great for China and probably very bad for the US, unless we start building nukes left and right.... then maybe not quite as bad.  I had drinks a couple of  years back with two senior engineers from GE.  We got to talking about energy production and one of the senior guys stated "we've run every model possible to see what the US energy future looks like and without a major investment in nuclear power it isn't pretty".

[FloridaJohn]

You would have to cover the entire planet in solar and wind to replace fossil fuels today.

Uhh.... No.

 

 

This Is The Area Of Solar Panels It Would Take To Power The World, Europe, And Germany

[The_Global_Warmer]

Uhh.... No.

 

 

This Is The Area Of Solar Panels It Would Take To Power The World, Europe, And Germany

 

 

Solar panels can be bike trails, roads, sidewalks, on tops of cars(that can be plugged in wherever they park and bring power to the system, every home and business, sporting venue that uses the grid now can have panels slapped on to them and bring power back into the grid.

 

 

In this case the American tax payers should foot most of the bill and in return the federal and state govts can force the electric companies to lower rates and or have a fair energy exchange program that helps lower costs for all involved.  The power companies would have to pay for the man power and upkeep of the solar and wind connection to the grid but the materials, production, shipping, installation could be tax payer funded.

 

Energy should be classified as a basic inalienable right so the govt can essentially run it's "business".  But so should water, healthcare, education, shelter, and to some extent food.

 

But that is a pipe dream in America.

 

There will always be a greedy money driven excuse on why the system will break down or some bulshyt if we make a change that brings the insitu companies less profit.

 

 

And there seems to be a sizeable part of our population that buys that crap hook line and sinker.

[The_Global_Warmer]

Solar is so beautiful.  I hope by 2100 we are 100% dependent on the suns energy.  Nothing will ever be more reliable.

 

 

 

[chrisf97212]

Uhh.... No.

 

 

This Is The Area Of Solar Panels It Would Take To Power The World, Europe, And Germany

 

He said until battery technology advances.

 

I agree with others, if C02 is bad it doesn't matter who is producing it.  Per capita calculations are irrelevant to the species that go extinct.

[FloridaJohn]

He said until battery technology advances.

I read it as two separate thoughts. How would covering the surface of the earth with solar panels mitigate the need for better storage?

[Jonger]

I read it as two separate thoughts. How would covering the surface of the earth with solar panels mitigate the need for better storage?

 

All the $$$ needs to be put directly into battery research. 

[chubbs]

All the $$$ needs to be put directly into battery research. 

 Batteries are making steady cost progress.  At-end-of-life used EV batteries still have plenty of capability for the less demanding stationary storage role. 

 

 

[chubbs]

Solar homes with battery back-up are forecast to grow rapidly.

 

http://news.investors.com/111214-726121-solarcity-vivint-solar-to-capitalize-on-battery-trend.htm?ven=yahoocp&src=aurlled&ven=yahoo

 

[skierinvermont]

Yep. The green renewables aren't reliable/cost-effective enough yet to take on the brunt of the energy demand (a lot of the green energy in Europe has to be constantly backed up by fossil-fuel power plants). They will get there eventually, but if anything serious on the climate change front is going to get accomplished in the next 2 decades, it has to come mostly from nuclear.

[skierinvermont]

This is false. Renewables are 5 % of us energy already. And growing rapidly with little govt involvement. Get on the ship already. It's hard to imagine a low fossil fuel use world but it is coming.

[nflwxman]

This is false. Renewables are 5 % of us energy already. And growing rapidly with little govt involvement. Get on the ship already. It's hard to imagine a low fossil fuel use world but it is coming.

Generally in 2014, Wind Power in the US has a lower cost/energy than coal, nuclear, hydro, and bio fuels.  At this point the natural gas supply boom is a main reason in which renewables have not grown at a faster rate.  Although, it might be a good thing to have LNG to temporarily fill the void left by decommissioned coal fired plants..

 

[ORH_wxman]

This is false. Renewables are 5 % of us energy already. And growing rapidly with little govt involvement. Get on the ship already. It's hard to imagine a low fossil fuel use world but it is coming.

 

 

Yeah not in the near-term...it's going to take at least 1-2 decades.

 

In the meantime, the earth will continue to rocket up emissions...China being the biggest culprit now.

[Msalgado]

Economically speaking this deal is great for China and probably very bad for the US, unless we start building nukes left and right.... then maybe not quite as bad.  I had drinks a couple of  years back with two senior engineers from GE.  We got to talking about energy production and one of the senior guys stated "we've run every model possible to see what the US energy future looks like and without a major investment in nuclear power it isn't pretty".

 

Sorry, but I can't help but drown in the irony of when a denier decides to think that modeling is the appropriate pathway for decisions.

[chrisf97212]

This is false. Renewables are 5 % of us energy already. And growing rapidly with little govt involvement. Get on the ship already. It's hard to imagine a low fossil fuel use world but it is coming.

 

 

Solar homes with battery back-up are forecast to grow rapidly.

 

http://news.investors.com/111214-726121-solarcity-vivint-solar-to-capitalize-on-battery-trend.htm?ven=yahoocp&src=aurlled&ven=yahoo

 

WEBITpent1113_345.gif.cms.png

 A solar panel produces maybe 10 watts/sq ft.  Check your energy bill and calculate how many sqft of panels you need.  By the way, Hoover dam has a capacity of over 2,000 megawatts.

[chubbs]

Yeah not in the near-term...it's going to take at least 1-2 decades.

 

In the meantime, the earth will continue to rocket up emissions...China being the biggest culprit 

 

 

Yes there is no quick fix. Probably won't be able to bring down global emissions significantly until after 2030. Best short-term strategy is: 1) efficiency,  2) shift away from coal whereever possible and 3) give renewables enough subsidy to increase scale.  1+3 are sound energy policy even without AGW

[chubbs]

 A solar panel produces maybe 10 watts/sq ft.  Check your energy bill and calculate how many sqft of panels you need.  By the way, Hoover dam has a capacity of over 2,000 megawatts.

 

For simplicity lets use 2000 hours of sunlight per year that's 20 kwhr per year per square foot. We use roughly 10000 kwhr per year so need roughly 500 sq feet or 25' x 20' . Rooftop system would easily cover it.

 

[subdude]

It is simple Obama let China walk all over him and the earth.  Anyone be it if you believe in climate change or not should be upset at this deal.  If China is allowed to do as they please for 15 years and we have to reduce ours by 27% is that not counter productive? 

Perhaps Obama could get Putin to promise to leave the Ukraine alone in 15 years, or get N Korea to promise to stop violating human rights sometime in the next two decades.

[Hambone]

Sorry, but I can't help but drown in the irony of when a denier decides to think that modeling is the appropriate pathway for decision.

 

I'm not a denier at all, I think the planet has warmed since about the end of the last ice age.  Some of it is caused by carbon, some by the sun, some by many other drivers.  No one can say exactly what the percentages are.   However, it is possible to very closely estimate the costs of the various remedies proposed to curtail carbon.  Whatever we curtail in carbon over the next 25 years will be dwarfed by the increases from China, India and the world's emerging economies.  So we ruin ourselves for no gain on the problem....

[skierinvermont]

Generally in 2014, Wind Power in the US has a lower cost/energy than coal, nuclear, hydro, and bio fuels. At this point the natural gas supply boom is a main reason in which renewables have not grown at a faster rate. Although, it might be a good thing to have LNG to temporarily fill the void left by decommissioned coal fired plants..

Yes people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that after 20 years wind and solar are finally legit low cost.

[chrisf97212]

For simplicity lets use 2000 hours of sunlight per year that's 20 kwhr per year per square foot. We use roughly 10000 kwhr per year so need roughly 500 sq feet or 25' x 20' . Rooftop system would easily cover it.

 

Global_energy_potential_perez_2009_en.svg.png

 

You appear to have mixed watts and kilowatts. 

[PhillipS]

You appear to have mixed watts and kilowatts. 

 

No, I believe his math was correct though, perhaps, his assumptions were a bit simplistic.

 

Using your value of 20 Watts/ft2 peak power, a 500 ft2 PV array will produce 10,000 watts (10 kW) of power at the daily peak.  Chubbs used a value of 2000 hours of sunlight/year, which for many places is low (365 X 10 hrs = 3,540 hrs/yr) but is good enough for a back of the envelope analysis.  10kW X 2000 hrs = 20,000 kWhrs/yr.  That's assuming the PV array is a tracking array with a long period of peak power.  A fixed array (typical for residential systems) would produce roughly a third of that or around 7,000 kWhrs/yr.  

 

If his utility is charging him $0.10/kWhr he'd have an annual savings of $700.  A 10 kW PV system will cost around $4/W or $40,000 before rebates and tax savings so he'd have a lengthy payback, but as utility rates go up the savings increase and the payback is quicker.

[The_Global_Warmer]

1% clean energy tax on every citizen either thru Federal income tax or property tax or sales tax.  Also levy this on every corporation. 

 

If need be have it sliding from wealthiest to poorest.

 

Create a clean energy department.  Put tens of thousand of Americans to work operating, building, manufacturing, developing, researching, and installing clean energy.

 

Figure out how to best work with and appease the electric companies and it's a done deal. 

 

It seems like about as easy common sense as there is.

[ORH_wxman]

1% clean energy tax on every citizen either thru Federal income tax or property tax or sales tax.  Also levy this on every corporation. 

 

If need be have it sliding from wealthiest to poorest.

 

Create a clean energy department.  Put tens of thousand of Americans to work operating, building, manufacturing, developing, researching, and installing clean energy.

 

Figure out how to best work with and appease the electric companies and it's a done deal. 

 

It seems like about as easy common sense as there is.

 

 

Lol, putting a 1% tax on everyone is easy?

 

Especially when you can't guarantee it will make much of a difference. (it won't until China and others like India commit to cutting back seriously) While the cause is noble, nobody wants to pay thousands of dollars for something that has marginal return.

[left_gulley]

Lol, putting a 1% tax on everyone is easy?

 

Especially when you can't guarantee it will make much of a difference. (it won't until China and others like India commit to cutting back seriously) While the cause is noble, nobody wants to pay thousands of dollars for something that has marginal return.

 

Do what BC does. Put in a carbon tax (on all fossil fuels), then reduce income taxes an equivalent amount. We want less carbon, not less work. It doesn't have to cost taxpayers a dime overall, and those who cut their emissions significantly can be much better off under this scenario. The higher gas, coal, and natural gas prices spur private incentive to reduce consumption of fossil fuels and to consume more non-carbon-based goods and services, and private companies and utilities invest more in renewables since the relative price of carbon-based technologies increases and will presumably be elevated for the extended future. It's been working well up there.

[The_Global_Warmer]

If marginal return matters more than this planet we have already lost.

[ORH_wxman]

If marginal return matters more than this planet we have already lost.

 

 

This is kind of an oxymoron. Marginal return by definition is going to be a low impact on the earth.

[The_Global_Warmer]

I assumed you were talking about profit margins.

 

I threw the 1% tax out there.

 

Realistically I was thinking around 40-80 billion per year invested into this department.  We can cut that right out of the military budget and get this going.

 

It's an investment in our future in so many ways.

 

I'd think that kind of money into solar and wind on a yearly basis would be enough to really push the envelope getting the technology out there and improved as fast as possible while working with the electric companies to evolve the grid to work with it.

 

 

FWIW I am 100% against the energy sector being ran by corporations.  You can add broadband internet to that, healthcare(including medication), Trash, Sewer, water, education and another basic human necessity that should be a birthright for all American citizens.

 

Anything non-essential can all be free enterprise.

 

 

Some stuff can be contracted out like education tools like tablets for all children in school.  Or even a much better well infrastructure broadband internet system nationwide.

 

 

We can get to work on developing these "smart" roads and "smart" bike trails that act as solar panels as well as transit broadband.  They can have little wifi ports built right in that broadcast the signal.

 

 

 

This will create huge amounts of good paying jobs in the millions with great benefits and unlike private corporations the higher ups won't be paid outrageous salaries.

 

It will also be very streamlined and efficient. 

 

We can also keep quite a bit of the maintenance and operating costs in house by contracting the United States military to help build the infrastructure also helping train solders for jobs in these departments after service.

 

yeah it cost tax payers money but it also makes our country a hell of a lot better place for 100% of us.