The ideal New England winter home (for maximum snow experience)

[Hitman]

Yeah, but those places are too far away. And the rest, eh...I wouldn't move based on those places. No right or wrong answer..but the Berks are nice...I think NNE offers more, that's all. 

agreed.  take Nvt over berkshires anytime.  imho the berkshires is much more "touristy" than the north country.  proximity to albany/springfield is basically worthless.  and the biking, hiking and skiing is much better up north.

[Hitman]

The hill towns west of Northampton are great for snow and storms. My mom grew up there and it's a really nice area. 

 

Some of the towns in the Berkshires... New Marlborough, Otis, Monterey are gorgeous with plenty to do within a 20-30 minute drive. 

really?  my in laws are in southfield so i've been up there more than I care to recall, they do get snow, but there is no mountain biking and the skiing is butternut which isnt in the same ballpark as in the northern greens.

[powderfreak]

Also the skiing is great (wildcat is 20' away) but Vermont is much better for skiing IMO. But MWV is still a great compromise for all year round enjoyment and rent ability.

 

Probably the lasting weather memory one winter of living in Pittsfield Vt. and commuting to Killington was the long streak of days with at least some snowfall.  If you like that kind of thing, it gets better as you head north too.

 

I should've read more posts before posting that last one, but yeah, I approach it from a skiers perspective and forget to look at it from a non-skier or just someone who isn't obsessed with it enough to make it a lifestyle.

 

For a skier, the daily snows are great...it means excellent conditions and any skier knows that fresh powder is fun, even if its only 3".  There's something about sliding through untracked snow.  So having multiple snowfalls per week is nice, even if its not necessarily building the pack up to your eyeballs at your house.  We often talk about it in Stowe...everyone is a snow fiend, but no one really cares what happens in town for snow, its all about what happens above 1,500ft. 

[powderfreak]

I think I'd like the upslope too as long as I get a few big events from it every winter. I can do without the 1-3" of daily fluff that compacts and sublimates about as fast as it falls.

 

I figured you and ORH/Will would get a kick out of this...December 2010 for Underhill, VT on the west slope of the Greens. 

 

Only 3 days all month without measurable snowfall, over 5" of total liquid (a couple rainers), 72.5" of snowfall in one month, and look at the snow depth.  That's a snow globe month.  For a skier, this is awesome as there's a lot of fresh powder to ski each day.  However, if you don't care about that, and just want to see snow pile up to your eyeballs, it may not be ideal.  However, this is still pretty darn wintery.

 

[dendrite]

Heh. Yeah, I expect my peak monthly depth to at least be half of my monthly total.

9.3" via 0.15" looks a little spurious to me...especially with no change in depth. Do they do cores there or whatever falls into the can?

[ORH_wxman]

Heh. Yeah, I expect my peak monthly depth to at least be half of my monthly total.

9.3" via 0.15" looks a little spurious to me...especially with no change in depth. Do they do cores there or whatever falls into the can?

 

Yeah I'm a little suspicious of 62 to 1 ratios, lol. That's getting very hard to do. 40 to 1 or even 50 to 1 is pretty rare. I remember when we'd have the very high ratio LES snowfalls in ITH, it was "easy" to evaporate some of your L.E. away when warming it up if you weren't careful. Those flakes almost want to sublimate in the ambient temperature...nevermind adding heat to it.

[dendrite]

Yeah I'm a little suspicious of 62 to 1 ratios, lol. That's getting very hard to do. 40 to 1 or even 50 to 1 is pretty rare. I remember when we'd have the very high ratio LES snowfalls in ITH, it was "easy" to evaporate some of your L.E. away when warming it up if you weren't careful. Those flakes almost want to sublimate in the ambient temperature...nevermind adding heat to it.

Especially when you're talking 9". 1-2" of 40-50:1 is a heck of a lot easier to pull off.

[CoastalWx]

40:1 ratios are cool during and about 3 hrs after snowfall. Then you wonder WTF happened to it lol. Of course if you get them frequently then that's a bit different .

[eekuasepinniW]

Underhell.

[ORH_wxman]

Especially when you're talking 9". 1-2" of 40-50:1 is a heck of a lot easier to pull off.

 

 

Yeah definitely. It was always pretty tedious. Maybe that's another reason I like the denser snows, lol.

 

 

At any rate, powderfreak is right when it all comes down to personal preference...sort of what I said earlier too. It becomes a discussion of asthetics and perhaps what winter sport you like, or even within that sport what conditions you like (I was never a huge powder skier...never really caught on for me, so I place a little less weight on "powder days").

 

A lot of riders go to ME/NH for the snowpack retention which gives the best riding in  New England.

 

Plenty just go ice fishing or snow shoing or go on joy rides in their car...so all those factors can decide what area you prefer for winter weather. I mentioned I liked those glaze events too. Some prefer to melt down the snow and start anew with a fresher powdery snow base....I don't mind loading it up with ice and sleet...whatever frozen QPF can go in there. Wet snow...layers and layers.

[dendrite]

Anyone have a snow depth days comparison between some of the NNE sites? I'm on the phone...otherwise I'd look myself.

[J.Spin]

Also, for me, I couldn't trade the powder skiing here for better retention at home (ie, if I were to move to say NH or ME).  I am absolutely convinced I ski a lot more fresh powder here in the Greens than I would in the Whites.  Those 1-4" snowfalls at home are more like 3-6"/6-12" type deals on the mountain...and the frequency of those snowfalls some year is incredible so you are essentially skiing powder for weeks on end.

 

For the hardcore skier who just wants to ski powder in the glades, it’s hard to beat up here.

 

Yeah, Radders mentioned skiing in the initial list, but it didn’t come across as a major factor in there, so I didn’t focus on it.  But if the quality of skiing, especially powder skiing, does factor significantly into the equation, then that’s another place where the Northern Greens (and Central Greens to a slightly lesser degree) would take it going away.  The prodigious upslope snow comes into play in terms of both quantity (refreshers) and quality (champagne) of the powder.  By the numbers, you’re looking at a mid-level snowfall resort in the Rockies, with the main difference in the quality of conditions being whether or not NVT has seen a recent thaw.  From my years of living in the Rockies near those types of resorts, the lack of thaws and the arid climate were critical in keeping conditions pristine.  At our local ski area in Montana, we’d get perhaps one day during the heart of the season where the freezing line would push above the 7,000’ – 8,000’ level, so that’s extremely good with regard to snow preservation.  As long as there’s not a major thaw, the off piste conditions in the Northern Greens are just like they were out there (note that skier traffic and especially snowmaking also play a role in degrading the trails here, so a good chunk of the on piste conditions typically don’t compare).  The great thing is, if there is a thaw in the Northern Greens, the recovery to much better conditions is often quick because of the frequent snowfall.

[J.Spin]

Heh. Yeah, I expect my peak monthly depth to at least be half of my monthly total.

 

9.3" via 0.15" looks a little spurious to me...especially with no change in depth. Do they do cores there or whatever falls into the can?

 

Indeed that’s a strange one, and makes me wonder if there was some sort of typo or data entry error.  I wasn’t yet reporting to CoCoRaHS at that stage, but I was coring snowfall for liquid, and during that 24-hour period my records show 4.1” snow/0.13” L.E., so the snow was around 30:1 for our location.  Our snow depth also increased by 1” during that period.  Underhill did get hit pretty hard during that storm though – I see in my archives for that event that an NWS employee there reported 32.1”:

 

********************STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL********************

 

LOCATION          STORM TOTAL    TIME/DATE    COMMENTS

                     SNOWFALL       OF

                     (INCHES)   MEASUREMENT

 

...CHITTENDEN COUNTY...

   NORTH UNDERHILL       32.1   700 AM  12/8 NWS EMPLOYEE

[moneypitmike]

Groton/New London didn't make the cut? 

 

LOL--my old stomping grounds.  Childhood winters from hell.

 

Btw this is my place if anyone cares

http://www.vrbo.com/preview/555806

 

 

Nice, Alex.  We've been casually looking for a place in the Barlett/Jack area the last couple of years.   Almost bit on one on Rolling Ridge but ended up passing.  We'll see what happens this year.

[alex]

That is one awesome view from that spot man...I just looked at Bartlett on a topographic map and yeah, that's right in the cold air damming corridor.  Great retention spot.

 

Yeah it's one thing I really do like; I love the refreshers and mood snows that Stowe gets - and I love how SO MANY TIMES a 1-3" predicted snowfall turns into a foot on the slopes; but I also do amaze at how much snow accumulates over there. The end of this last season was insane, and just a few weeks ago I was noticing how there are entire parking lots with signs and small structures along Pinkham Notch that were so deeply covered in the winter that I didn't even realize they existed. Cool stuff. 

[powderfreak]

Heh. Yeah, I expect my peak monthly depth to at least be half of my monthly total.

9.3" via 0.15" looks a little spurious to me...especially with no change in depth. Do they do cores there or whatever falls into the can?

I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that is a NWS employee site.

I think what it comes down to is the stuff is so fluffy, especially late in an upslope storm, that coring it is likely to lose some moisture somewhere.

I know those are rare ratios once over 40:1, but I see a fair number of 40-60 to 1 ratios on the CoCoRAHS site with some snowfalls, I think it's just the margin for error is so great with such ridiculous snow growth.

On this side of the mountain in town we get lower ratios. I've noticed a lot of times the liquid will be similar with half the snowfall (say 18:1 ratios instead of 40:1). Even up at the mountain, the east side is the windy side with some down sloping, so I think even though we are snowing hard, I think the flake structure is smaller. I've noticed that on many occasions where the Stowe Village guy comes in with similar liquid but less snowfall due to ratios.

[alex]

LOL--my old stomping grounds.  Childhood winters from hell.

 

 

 

Nice, Alex.  We've been casually looking for a place in the Barlett/Jack area the last couple of years.   Almost bit on one on Rolling Ridge but ended up passing.  We'll see what happens this year.

 

I know how you feel - I kept "thinking about it" but was hesitant to pull the trigger, but I have to say, no regrets whatsoever. Best decision of my life. Nothing like sitting in my office knowing that in a few days I'll be back up there. 

[dryslot]

Pretty telling map to where the best snow avg areas are for up here which is the same area that retains snow pack as Will mentioned and i agree with as well

 

 

 

 

 

[moneypitmike]

I know how you feel - I kept "thinking about it" but was hesitant to pull the trigger, but I have to say, no regrets whatsoever. Best decision of my life. Nothing like sitting in my office knowing that in a few days I'll be back up there. 

 

When did you pick up your place there?  Nice spot.

 

75.0/66

[alex]

I should've read more posts before posting that last one, but yeah, I approach it from a skiers perspective and forget to look at it from a non-skier or just someone who isn't obsessed with it enough to make it a lifestyle.

 

For a skier, the daily snows are great...it means excellent conditions and any skier knows that fresh powder is fun, even if its only 3".  There's something about sliding through untracked snow.  So having multiple snowfalls per week is nice, even if its not necessarily building the pack up to your eyeballs at your house.  We often talk about it in Stowe...everyone is a snow fiend, but no one really cares what happens in town for snow, its all about what happens above 1,500ft. 

 

Agree. I always loved how you drive from the town Stowe, where snowpack is often not that great, up towards the lifts and as you gain elevation you can see the snowpack just increasing dramatically. And you just can't compare the conditions we have in NH with eith those in NVT; we have great days after a storm, but NVT is just much more reliable from a powder perspective. Also, one thing Mansfield, Sugarbush, etc get that I miss a lot is the trees loaded with snow. We don't really get that very often in NH, and when we do, it's short lived. 

 

I love my backyard but I love other people's backyards too. That's what's so great about New England - we all can drive from amazing beaches to awesome mountains in a matter of hours, and we are pretty darn lucky to call this area home. 

[powderfreak]

Yeah it's one thing I really do like; I love the refreshers and mood snows that Stowe gets - and I love how SO MANY TIMES a 1-3" predicted snowfall turns into a foot on the slopes; but I also do amaze at how much snow accumulates over there. The end of this last season was insane, and just a few weeks ago I was noticing how there are entire parking lots with signs and small structures along Pinkham Notch that were so deeply covered in the winter that I didn't even realize they existed. Cool stuff. 

 

That's one of the charms for me, too.  I feel like this is one area where no matter how much you look over weather models and no matter how good we get at forecasting, stuff like upslope is going to provide surprises for skiers.  This is one of the few areas where you can still honestly get a surprise foot of snow...even being as anal as all of us are about watching and monitoring the weather. 

 

Even the NWS guys will tell you, the forecasting has become so much better thanks to great local studies, but you still are just throwing your best guess out there and are never really sure what the mountains will do. 

 

Like my favorite days are always the ones where I'm expecting 1-3" of overnight snow, and arrive at Mountain Operations at 5am to a raging blizzard with 8-10" on the ground.  This was one of those days...last March where we ended with a total of 10-13" from base-summit from a forecast of 1-3". 

 

 

Then a day or two later you get another 6" out of nowhere...as a skier, this is the stuff you love. 

 

 

When you think back to childhood and think of the surprise snowstorms because forecasting wasn't that advanced, and then you think of all the information we have now...there's very few places where several times per winter you can be honestly surprised by a snowstorm.

[alex]

When did you pick up your place there?  Nice spot.

 

75.0/66

 

Last January. I started by looking at places at Nordic Village, till I found out their condo association has ridiculous rules (eg, only guests can use the gym, not owners - WTF?). As I looked at places, I realized the thing that I really cared about was the view, so I focused on that. There's lots of awesome places in the woods, too, but to me just being able to see the clouds roll along the valley, with the snow showers approaching, and Mt Washington right across is really awesome. And of course I got myself a telescope so I can always check out what's going on on the rockpile.  

[powderfreak]

Pretty telling map to where the best snow avg areas are for up here which is the same area that retains snow pack as Will mentioned and i agree with as well

 

Maines Avg Snowfall.jpg

 

For snowmobiling, there's gotta be no better spot than up there.  For that sport, you're looking for big, dense snowfalls and deep pack that can support a lot of traffic. 

[dryslot]

For snowmobiling, there's gotta be no better spot than up there.  For that sport, you're looking for big, dense snowfalls and deep pack that can support a lot of traffic. 

 

You got it, The trail system up here is the best statewide as well into Canada

[ORH_wxman]

You got it, The trail system up here is the best statewide as well into Canada

 

It amazes me how in the winter, you can essentially ride from Sebago up into Canada if you really wanted to, lol. Such an extensive network of trails. But you see how reliable the snow is on the ground and it's understandable.

 

There's actually a decent amount of riding that goes on in SW NH into N MA and then the east slope of the Berks. Its funny that the common denominator is good retention in those spots. It's not as good as up in N NH and Maine obviously, but during solid winters, they'll ride for several weeks in those spots.

[dryslot]

It amazes me how in the winter, you can essentially ride from Sebago up into Canada if you really wanted to, lol. Such an extensive network of trails. But you see how reliable the snow is on the ground and it's understandable.

 

There's actually a decent amount of riding that goes on in SW NH into N MA and then the east slope of the Berks. Its funny that the common denominator is good retention in those spots. It's not as good as up in N NH and Maine obviously, but during solid winters, they'll ride for several weeks in those spots.

 

We have several 3-4 day club trips every year from here that if we can leave out of Lewiston , We go to the Rangeley/Jackman area as well as to Millinocket and Aroostook county area, The snowmobile clubs for the most part do an awesome job of maintaining the trail system in many of the areas thru out the state, But in some cases when we have thin conditions here, You only have to travel 50 miles or less to the NW to pick up the snow as that map shows

[mreaves]

It amazes me how in the winter, you can essentially ride from Sebago up into Canada if you really wanted to, lol. Such an extensive network of trails. But you see how reliable the snow is on the ground and it's understandable.

 

There's actually a decent amount of riding that goes on in SW NH into N MA and then the east slope of the Berks. Its funny that the common denominator is good retention in those spots. It's not as good as up in N NH and Maine obviously, but during solid winters, they'll ride for several weeks in those spots.

I can ride from my house to NH and Canada.  You do have to know which snow holes to avoid though.

[ORH_wxman]

I can ride from my house to NH and Canada.  You do have to know which snow holes to avoid though.

 

 

Yeah that's key the further west you go...it's easier to run into snow holes since that sweet spot for snow retention is narrower in N VT. I always notice how quickly the snow conditions can change over short distance in the northern Greens. You go into a valley that gets downsloped and all of the sudden it looks like a different part of the country.

 

 

But if we get a good winter, then even the snow holes usually have sufficient cover for most of the time.

[Whineminster]

North ORH best in the country for snow, true fact

[powderfreak]

Yeah that's key the further west you go...it's easier to run into snow holes since that sweet spot for snow retention is narrower in N VT. I always notice how quickly the snow conditions can change over short distance in the northern Greens. You go into a valley that gets downsloped and all of the sudden it looks like a different part of the country.

But if we get a good winter, then even the snow holes usually have sufficient cover for most of the time.

The Lyndon State College snow hole....for the most part you'll be ok if you avoid the areas that downslope off the Whites towards St Johnsbury and the upper CT Valley. Even N.NH has some holes where down slope off the Presidentials.

In that area of VT though, if you stay above 1500ft you're all set...like Coles Pond is sort of in the downslope triangle but at over 2,000ft that effect is null and they actually upslope haha.