Ginx snewx Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Moving a discussion over here where it belongs.... I mentioned driving home tonight from a 10 day trip to Killington and how the unexpected cold air made us nervous. We expected 45 degrees and got 34 most of the way down 91. Someone commented that there was a large exodus from VT early this AM because the conditions were probably crap today with the warm temps even though it was colder then expected. I wanted to run this idea past the group active in this thread. Basically at 54 degrees today Killington was every bit as warm as expected which made for the best skiing of the past 7 days. The nice soft carvable snow was 1000% better than the icy death slide skiing of the past week. All the locals/regulars were having a blast in the canyon today. Why would someone think icy conditions were better than soft carvable snow? I just found the idea perplexing that people perceive days like today as crap. That perception must be real though because the place was empty today. Now tomorrow will be horrible for sure after the flash freeze that is coming. Would people honestly prefer tomorrow's conditions to today's? most people don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hildy Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would suspect that the exodus had more to do with school starting up again tomorrow then the weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutts Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Moving a discussion over here where it belongs.... I mentioned driving home tonight from a 10 day trip to Killington and how the unexpected cold air made us nervous. We expected 45 degrees and got 34 most of the way down 91. Someone commented that there was a large exodus from VT early this AM because the conditions were probably crap today with the warm temps even though it was colder then expected. I wanted to run this idea past the group active in this thread. Basically at 54 degrees today Killington was every bit as warm as expected which made for the best skiing of the past 7 days. The nice soft carvable snow was 1000% better than the icy death slide skiing of the past week. All the locals/regulars were having a blast in the canyon today. Why would someone think icy conditions were better than soft carvable snow? I just found the idea perplexing that people perceive days like today as crap. That perception must be real though because the place was empty today. Now tomorrow will be horrible for sure after the flash freeze that is coming. Would people honestly prefer tomorrow's conditions to today's? The confirmation of this is the crowds for limited snowmaking runs in Nov/Dec and the resorts closing down at full operation because business dries up in the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skivt2 Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 I thought of that too. March - May is my favorite part of ski season with the exception of big snow storms and their immediate aftermath. Most people won't ski during a snowstorm or in spring slush. You hear the "snow is too had to push around". If you are pushing it around, you are doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Wasn't exactly a bluebird day either though. Fog and occasional rain doesn't really motivate people to play in snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would suspect that the exodus had more to do with school starting up again tomorrow then the weather. This. The last Sunday after the holiday week is notoriously empty. The snow was good in the morning, powder day pretty much, but turned to mank by 11am when it started raining. Today is fast. Very fast. Not my favorite. But there is a large segment of the lower end skier who enjoy firm groomers. They don't want to push around heavy piles of fresh powder or spring snow. They just want to cruise around easily on the groomed stuff. It does amaze me though that there are a lot of skiers that just don't get the whole fresh powder thing. Like the folks that complain that not enough is groomed during a snowstorm. It's different strokes for different folks. I'm addicted to powder snow...I love the 8-10" champagne dumps overnight, just floating down a mountain while powder billows around you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Spin Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 This. The last Sunday after the holiday week is notoriously empty. The snow was good in the morning, powder day pretty much, but turned to mank by 11am when it started raining. Today is fast. Very fast. Not my favorite. But there is a large segment of the lower end skier who enjoy firm groomers. They don't want to push around heavy piles of fresh powder or spring snow. They just want to cruise around easily on the groomed stuff. It does amaze me though that there are a lot of skiers that just don't get the whole fresh powder thing. Like the folks that complain that not enough is groomed during a snowstorm. It's different strokes for different folks. I'm addicted to powder snow...I love the 8-10" champagne dumps overnight, just floating down a mountain while powder billows around you. Powder skiing is soft, forgiving, silent, and can be almost effortless if you're doing it correctly, whereas skiing on hard snow is jarring and loud, and things get worse the harder the snow is. For people that aren’t attuned to the difference, the analogy I like to use is swimming. Powder skiing is like going swimming in that perfect temperature water on the perfect day, whereas hard snow is like swimming when the water temperature is cold, 60s F, 50s F, whatever, with the water being colder equivalent to the snow being harder. Sure, you can go swimming in water at essentially any temperature, but there's a reason a lot of people aren't swimming in the off season when the water is cold; the experience is just less and less enjoyable. Obviously there's a huge continuum from hard to soft snow conditions, but powder skiing is a rarified experience in rarified snow, which is why people will pay $10,000+ a week to go on a powder skiing trip. Aside from needing hard snow for control in ski racing or related competitive disciplines, the only reason there really is to not like powder skiing is simply not being comfortable with it. But, even for those who only ski on groomed terrain, they can get the idea of what it's like. Just imagine the best groomed snow you've ever skied, where all the turns were silent and soft, and you could cut into the snow with your skis on any pitch and never touch anything hard. There's no loud skittering and scraping, and you can actually ski better because there's no fear of your skis sliding out on you. This is actually the experience that many people who only ski groomed terrain in places with low snowfall/high skier density/snowmaking/low elevation/high humidity encounter the first time they head out to ski areas such as those in the western U.S., and why they are so blown away by the experience. To get a sense for what good powder skiing is like, people can amplify that very best groomed skiing experience many times. It at least gives people unfamiliar with powder skiing an idea of why people who've figured out how to ski powder are constantly seeking out that experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I've probably skied 10 legit powder days in my life (like 10"+ of fresh dry snow both in Colorado and NNE) and I'm not addicted to it like some are. I don't hate it or anything, I like it. But just don't find it as a nirvana experience like many others. I do hate ice though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I've probably skied 10 legit powder days in my life (like 10"+ of fresh dry snow both in Colorado and NNE) and I'm not addicted to it like some are. I don't hate it or anything, I like it. But just don't find it as a nirvana experience like many others. I do hate ice though. Yeah I've always been obsessed with skiing through fresh snow. Like there's nothing I wanted to do more as a kid and that's what started my obsession with snow...the skiing aspect of it. A great untracked ski run is like the holy grail for me, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 there are two kinds of Powder skiing, there is dry fluff and there is Sierra Cement, you can keep the cement, fluff is fine but I like my ACLs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Yeah I've always been obsessed with skiing through fresh snow. Like there's nothing I wanted to do more as a kid and that's what started my obsession with snow...the skiing aspect of it. A great untracked ski run is like the holy grail for me, haha. I like the scenery more than the skiing on powder days...the trees are all draped in fresh snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyewall Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would like to try some more powder skiing but I don't have the equipment for it (ie those wide powder skis). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolMike Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As a snowboarder any soft snow will do. Yesterday I found a few un-tracked and ungroomed sections of soft snow in the morning at Sugarbush. It was almost perfect from a snowboarding stand-point - 4" of slop feels a lot like 8" inches of champagne and the crust isn't a problem for snowboarding.I've been lucky enough to have 6 or 7 real powder days in my short career (this is my fifth year and I am averaging 10-12 days per year). This year the goal is 30 days. I'm already behind with just 7 days so far. Skiing and riding is what got me interested in weather. Now that my interest is piqued I take joy in the little aspects of winter weather; the feeling of very cold air on my face, watching snow fall in my back yard, scoping out individual ensemble members to pick my favorite scenario, and the like. I remember watching the local news leading up to the February 2013 Blizzard and when the simulated radar showed the two low pressure systems perfectly phase I let out a loud cheer - as if the Patriots had just kicked a super-bowl winning field goal. I'd still gladly donate my back yard snow to my home mountain if I could though. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N. OF PIKE Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I like the scenery more than the skiing on powder days...the trees are all draped in fresh snow. I like the hard packed, groomed surface. Just get some nice speed moving down the Blue trails, thank you have a nice day. This is what I love about Crotched Mountain on most nights. I'll pass on the ice thou, which seems most frequent at WaWa. WaWa must be like skiing on a run way landing strip this year. I had that experience at Stowe a couple years ago, (2 or 3) I was so excited to be up there, I bought my ticket and went down (thank god a green trail for first run of the year) there was nearly Nobody out and I was simply flying down groomed ice, I could not get an edge to save my life, and it was exhilarating lol, it was eye opening to see how much speed one can gain on a small decline (green trail) when you are on groomed ice. The rivet from the groomers were so damn hard I could barely chip them with my boot, after I run they game me NO hassle about a full refund. Probably one of the rarest mountains in New England to have icy conditions (as upslope "resurfaces" the slopes almost daily) but there was a light to slightly moderate freezing drizzle rain event the night before on the mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radarman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would like to try some more powder skiing but I don't have the equipment for it (ie those wide powder skis). Not really necessary to enjoy it. Anything over 80mm underfoot with a touch of rocker at the tips will do fine in powder even if you have to adjust your technique a tad. Unless your normal gear is a cambered racing ski I wouldn't worry about it too much. That said, if you can afford it something 90+ underfoot and rockered is pretty nice. >110 is overkill for the East Coast IMO, though others may differ. For me big powder here means trees and I am willing to sacrifice flotation for quickness side to side, even in the deepest snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Oh we get ice with the best of them...it's how well you recover in the days afterward that is key. I think of frozen granular as like skiing a highway rumble strip...where you can see the corduroy from the groomers but you can't break it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Spin Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 there are two kinds of Powder skiing, there is dry fluff and there is Sierra Cement, you can keep the cement, fluff is fine but I like my ACLs Agreed, the denser the snow, say >12% H2O or so, the more it shifts the experience toward the "harder snow" end of the spectrum in terms of difficulty/enjoyment, with champagne of <6-8% H2O being sort of that pinnacle of powder on the soft side. Most aficionados would agree that the absolute best powder skiing comes from when you have a continuum of denser snow on the bottom, gradually transitioning to fluffy, dry champagne powder on top. This is the "right side up" deposition pattern for powder, which seems fairly common for storm cycles in many mountain ranges. You want that dense snow to cover any blemishes/obstacles in the underlying snowpack to create a smooth, regular surface that doesn’t give you any surprises. You want the overall snow deposition from the storm to be in the form of a density gradient as well, so that regardless of what type of turn you make, or how much pressure/weight you put into the turn, the snow will push back as required and the turn will still remain "bottomless" (i.e. you are never touching the base snow). Creating that perfect setup leads to that ultimate experience where you've got plenty of supporting snow keeping you off the base, but the snow on top is giving you that appropriate amount of resistance in turns and exploding upward all around and enveloping you while you ski (the white room). If the snow is all fluff, unless there's feet of it, you will sink right down to the base and you're skiing on that harder snow (not bottomless). If the snow is all cement, it can be difficult to push around and difficult to ski (even dangerous to knees etc. as you mentioned). Also bad is an "upside down" deposition of powder, which would be denser snow (or even crust) on top of lighter snow. In this situation, if you break through the upper layer, the skiing is very challenging and potentially even dangerous to joints in the same way that cement-like snow is. The fluffy upslope snow that falls in the Northern Greens (and to lesser degrees farther south) doesn’t just help in terms of overall snow quantity, but it plays a part in the overall quality of the powder skiing as well because synoptic snow topped with upslope snow creates that most desired deposition pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyewall Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The rocker on my skis is pretty good for sure. I think I may give it a go. I just have to learn the technique for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adk Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I would like to try some more powder skiing but I don't have the equipment for it (ie those wide powder skis). They make a big difference for "powder"...true true blower: can be skied in two by fours. That said, just go to the OGE on Church street and get a pair on consignment. For 400 bucks you can get a really good pair of powder skis and bindings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adk Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Not really necessary to enjoy it. Anything over 80mm underfoot with a touch of rocker at the tips will do fine in powder even if you have to adjust your technique a tad. Unless your normal gear is a cambered racing ski I wouldn't worry about it too much. That said, if you can afford it something 90+ underfoot and rockered is pretty nice. >110 is overkill for the East Coast IMO, though others may differ. For me big powder here means trees and I am willing to sacrifice flotation for quickness side to side, even in the deepest snow. Width and turn initiation for quick tree skiing turns aren't really related. The fastest turning pair of skis I have are BD megawatts. They are short, super fat and fully rockered. They have no effective edge and turn on a dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radarman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Width and turn initiation for quick tree skiing turns aren't really related. The fastest turning pair of skis I have are BD megawatts. They are short, super fat and fully rockered. They have no effective edge and turn on a dime. Well, the turning radius is going to be a lot bigger on those... at least the spec. What are those like 25m at 176? Many will prefer a turning radius closer to 18 or 19. You may be able to get em around lightning fast but I wouldn't send out the majority with 120s underfoot into the trees. I have a pair of 110s that I take out in very rare circumstances. Last time was the upslope blitz bluebird day in 2012 at Stowe. I don't know how many pairs of skis you have, but some ultralight rockered 82s underfoot I suspect you could get around just as fast even if you didn't like them as much. But again I'm not making the case against powder skis as a whole... they're made for a reason clearly... but against the notion that most need powder skis, particularly here where mixed conditions are far more prevalent. Especially given that most have one maybe two ski quivers. edit--- I should add... I realize in deep light snow, the turning spec starts becoming irrelevant... But there's usually still extra weight there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 They make a big difference for "powder"...true true blower: can be skied in two by fours. That said, just go to the OGE on Church street and get a pair on consignment. For 400 bucks you can get a really good pair of powder skis and bindings. exactly. great powder skis will enhance the experience, but you can have a great day when there are great conditions as long as you are comfortable skiing powder. and it is different, so if you're not used to it, you can end up "fighting it" instead of floating in it. I'm not saying equipment doesnt make a difference, it does. But lack of a dedicated "powder" ski shouldnt stop anyone from skiing powder. I was out in BC with a friend who is an experienced skier. He rented skis and the first day conditions were either skied off chalk or crust/ice. hated the skis. said he couldnt ski in them. went back to the shop and swapped them out for another pair. next day same conditions, same complaints. switched out the skis for a 3rd pair. the next day we got 6" of powder. best skis ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Well, the turning radius is going to be a lot bigger on those... at least the spec. What are those like 25m at 176? Many will prefer a turning radius closer to 18 or 19. You may be able to get em around lightning fast but I wouldn't send out the majority with 120s underfoot into the trees. I have a pair of 110s that I take out in very rare circumstances. Last time was the upslope blitz bluebird day in 2012 at Stowe. I don't know how many pairs of skis you have, but some ultralight rockered 82s underfoot I suspect you could get around just as fast even if you didn't like them as much. But again I'm not making the case against powder skis as a whole... they're made for a reason clearly... but against the notion that most need powder skis, particularly here where mixed conditions are far more prevalent. Especially given that most have one maybe two ski quivers. edit--- I should add... I realize in deep light snow, the turning spec starts becoming irrelevant... But there's usually still extra weight there. there are different kinds of turns that you can make quickly with the wide skis. its not carving, its more a swivel. I'm riding the Line SFB which is 108 under foot and I've found them to be plenty quick in the trees. It is my one ski quiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sankaty Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Back in the old days when everyone was skiing on 200 cm straight skis, I used to have a fair amount of sympathy for folks who complained about fresh ungroomed snow. Skiing 3D snow required significant practice, and typical holiday skiers might only have a handful of times to develop their technique. If the snow was dense, it could be extra difficult and intimidating. Even back then, though, I felt that nobody should complain about fresh snow, no matter how challenging, just on principle. Modern rocker-camber-rocker skis with a bit of width and sidecut make 3D snow skiing so much easier that I don't feel it requires a major revision to groomed snow technique, though being able to switch between extension and retraction turns is very useful (as it is in almost any ungroomed terrain). i've found that these skis have made wet snow and spring mashed potato snow so much more fun, too. The main deep snow exception is the crusted over or upside-down densitiy snow that JSpin described. That can be extremely difficult on any gear. I do about 90% of my skiing on two pairs of skis, both rocker-camber-rocker, one 88mm underfoot and the other 98mm underfoot. Some would feel like there's too much overlap, but I think it's perfect. The 88mm pair is great for any soft snow day, really excelling in bumps and tracked trees. The 88s are nice in powder, but my 98s are sublime, surpassing the 88s enough to justify their place in the quiver. The 98s are also fine in moguls, but definitely require more effort than the 88s. There's enough overlap that if I bring out the 88s and find more deep snow than anticipated, I'm not immediately running back to the car to change skis. And if I'm laping a mogul run with the 98s, I'm still having a blast. On a day with decent snow in VT, I never find myself wanting anything narrower than 88 or wider than 98. To be fair, I've never tried anything wider than about 102mm, and perhaps I'd really love 120s on a deep dry powder day, but the 98s are so fun as it is. I also have a 85mm stiff pair with a fresh tune that I keep for days where the woods and bumps are bulletproof and the frozen groomers offer the best skiing. On a good year, they don't get much use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borderwx Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Back in the old days when everyone was skiing on 200 cm straight skis, I used to have a fair amount of sympathy for folks who complained about fresh ungroomed snow. Skiing 3D snow required significant practice, and typical holiday skiers might only have a handful of times to develop their technique. If the snow was dense, it could be extra difficult and intimidating. Even back then, though, I felt that nobody should complain about fresh snow, no matter how challenging, just on principle. Modern rocker-camber-rocker skis with a bit of width and sidecut make 3D snow skiing so much easier that I don't feel it requires a major revision to groomed snow technique, though being able to switch between extension and retraction turns is very useful (as it is in almost any ungroomed terrain). i've found that these skis have made wet snow and spring mashed potato snow so much more fun, too. The main deep snow exception is the crusted over or upside-down densitiy snow that JSpin described. That can be extremely difficult on any gear. I do about 90% of my skiing on two pairs of skis, both rocker-camber-rocker, one 88mm underfoot and the other 98mm underfoot. Some would feel like there's too much overlap, but I think it's perfect. The 88mm pair is great for any soft snow day, really excelling in bumps and tracked trees. The 88s are nice in powder, but my 98s are sublime, surpassing the 88s enough to justify their place in the quiver. The 98s are also fine in moguls, but definitely require more effort than the 88s. There's enough overlap that if I bring out the 88s and find more deep snow than anticipated, I'm not immediately running back to the car to change skis. And if I'm laping a mogul run with the 98s, I'm still having a blast. On a day with decent snow in VT, I never find myself wanting anything narrower than 88 or wider than 98. To be fair, I've never tried anything wider than about 102mm, and perhaps I'd really love 120s on a deep dry powder day, but the 98s are so fun as it is. I also have a 85mm stiff pair with a fresh tune that I keep for days where the woods and bumps are bulletproof and the frozen groomers offer the best skiing. On a good year, they don't get much use. Horses for courses. Everyone will have all sorts of preferences. One thing for sure though, don't know how to tune for arctic wind hammered or refreeze groomers and the fun factor goes way down. Having a reliable edge underfoot allows you to relax and let the feet relax, same thing pow allows. Whether you can't get balanced in 3D snow or can't get balanced because you can't find the edge = the same strain and distaste IMO. 2 pair skier too, but they are more binding selected vs performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Pickles, when I have been to Wachusett this season, I have been surprised at the lack of ice compared to some other seasons, which was surprising. Def some ice, and not primo conditions, but not really bad the times I have been. I have seen a lot of complaints on social media, but I don't really agree. Again, you got to know when and where to go. Blasting away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I've only ever really skied in true powder (6 inches or more) a couple of times. I did get to ski Whistler/BC around St Patricks day in 1993 when they were getting smoked though. Powder up top, cement middle, rain at the bottom...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I've only ever really skied in true powder (6 inches or more) a couple of times. I did get to ski Whistler/BC around St Patricks day in 1993 when they were getting smoked though. Powder up top, cement middle, rain at the bottom...lolFeb 2001,SR above waist to shoulder deep pure air like sking in feathers, mega face shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N. OF PIKE Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Pickles, when I have been to Wachusett this season, I have been surprised at the lack of ice compared to some other seasons, which was surprising. Def some ice, and not primo conditions, but not really bad the times I have been. I have seen a lot of complaints on social media, but I don't really agree. Again, you got to know when and where to go. Blasting away Excellent Dave, I think i'll head out there on a day or two off, Me and Ginxy have to get skiing one day as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauntonBlizzard2013 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 PF, any recommendation on places to stay up in that area? Found out today i have to work on the day of the bus trip up there, so I can't do that. Girlfriend really wants to go (so do I), so I told her I'd look into a few nights somewhere over spring break (week of the 10th in march) Not sure if you know the vacation weeks, but I'm pretty sure that isn't grade school break time. Would be nice to get a room for a few and hit the slopes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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