MGorse Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Blogged a bit about today's storm here --> http://ryanhanrahan.com/2014/07/28/thoughts-on-todays-tornado/ The Revere tornado brings up interesting questions about how we should be communicated tornado debris signatures and such. Also, this is another example of a TDS that appeared in the NE that hasn't been mentioned by the NWS in warnings or statements - not sure if there is a reason why that is (i.e. they're not using a TDS as confirmation or just not seeing it). There was never going to be any lead time for this TOR given the quick nature of how it spun up and spun down. The 2 hours of watching Boston media tweet about "was it a tornado???" was maddening when the TDS confirmed that it was already. You are a TV Met, right? Have you contacted NWS BOX at all? I went back and looked at the products issued for this event during the time of the tornado. Based on the time of the tornado listed in the PNS, it appears the warning forecaster was issuing a Flash Flood Warning at the time the tornado occurred. I do not work at that WFO, so I am not sure how their shifts are or what their staffing was for this event. I have not seen any dual-pol images showing the actual TDS for this event. Do you have that image? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 You are a TV Met, right? Have you contacted NWS BOX at all? I went back and looked at the products issued for this event during the time of the tornado. Based on the time of the tornado listed in the PNS, it appears the warning forecaster was issuing a Flash Flood Warning at the time the tornado occurred. I do not work at that WFO, so I am not sure how their shifts are or what their staffing was for this event. I have not seen any dual-pol images showing the actual TDS for this event. Do you have that image? It's in his blog link in the post you quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 You are a TV Met, right? Have you contacted NWS BOX at all? I went back and looked at the products issued for this event during the time of the tornado. Based on the time of the tornado listed in the PNS, it appears the warning forecaster was issuing a Flash Flood Warning at the time the tornado occurred. I do not work at that WFO, so I am not sure how their shifts are or what their staffing was for this event. I have not seen any dual-pol images showing the actual TDS for this event. Do you have that image? Here's the TDS from the 934 UTC volume scan. I wasn't casting any blame... was just pointing out that the TDS was on radar and didn't show up in any products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGorse Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 It's in his blog link in the post you quoted. I realized that after I posted. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I realized that after I posted. Sorry about that. I hope my point wasn't lost... the point of the post was really how should we be communicating TDSs. Should they make it into products and how would you characterized the tornado... "confirmed"? Another issue was if TDSs are as good as if not better than spotter reports... why can't we say immediately that a tornado touched down and we need to survey the damage to see the strength. The 2 hours of media coverage about "what it was" is painful when the science already told us exactly what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGorse Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Here's the TDS from the 934 UTC volume scan. I wasn't casting any blame... was just pointing out that the TDS was on radar and didn't show up in any products. 934.png Thanks, I realized it was in your blog after my original post. Thanks for reposted it. Your post below from yesterday came across like you were casting blame. The NWS really dropped the ball on the Revere tornado. TDS appears at 934A... warning issued at 944A. Probably wouldn't have gotten much (if any) lead time but still... gotta get that warning out faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I hope my point wasn't lost... the point of the post was really how should we be communicating TDSs. Should they make it into products and how would you characterized the tornado... "confirmed"? Another issue was if TDSs are as good as if not better than spotter reports... why can't we say immediately that a tornado touched down and we need to survey the damage to see the strength. The 2 hours of media coverage about "what it was" is painful when the science already told us exactly what it was. That's what was amazing to me. Nobody could talk about that TDS and say.."well this is why I believe it was a tornado..." I mean they all were puppets to what the survey came up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Thanks, I realized it was in your blog after my original post. Thanks for reposted it. Your post below from yesterday came across like you were casting blame. Yeah I'm sure they would have liked to get the warning out faster but as I mentioned there still wouldn't have been any lead time at that point even if they did. But my blog post was more about how/when to communicate the debris signature - which hasn't been communicated much in the northeast even though there have been several TDSs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGorse Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Yeah I'm sure they would have liked to get the warning out faster but as I mentioned there still wouldn't have been any lead time at that point even if they did. But my blog post was more about how/when to communicate the debris signature - which hasn't been communicated much in the northeast even though there have been several TDSs. Yeah, I see where you are coming from. NWS warning text products need to become more impact based, meaning adding more value instead of the same wording over and over again. But then again, in these parts of the country signatures like this are not all that common and when they are they typically do not last long. Plus, the whole TDS signature in dual-pol radar data is a newer item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 What time was the Maine EF0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGorse Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 What time was the Maine EF0? The PNS has 3:49 PM to 3:52 PM. http://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/wx/afos/p.php?pil=PNSGYX&e=201407291609 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 The PNS has 3:49 PM to 3:52 PM. http://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/wx/afos/p.php?pil=PNSGYX&e=201407291609 I appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina311 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Are we totally done talking about Revere? I found the picture I took while it was going on (it was on my tablet, not my phone, and I forgot). This was at 9:34, looking southeast toward where it touched down about a mile away from me. There's really nothing to see, but I find it fascinating to know now what was going on behind the darkness. I also saw birds that were having trouble flying a few minutes after this when the rain stopped. They would go up and be pushed back down. I tried and failed to get some video of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 That's what was amazing to me. Nobody could talk about that TDS and say.."well this is why I believe it was a tornado..." I mean they all were puppets to what the survey came up with. I realize it's very easy to get lost in the craziness of the moment, watching what is likely a tornado touch down in the northern outskirts of Boston basically. At the same time, we're good enough to infuse some science into our products for added value. At the very least a SVS update could have included some information about the TDS (in plain language). Believe me I was looking for one after I issued my TOR. Seems like ours was too weak and brief to loft much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 The discussion got me looking though. Our templates in the office have no option for a "radar confirmed" detection statement at the beginning of the warning, or a call-to-action later on. Time to steal from one of our friends to the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I realize it's very easy to get lost in the craziness of the moment, watching what is likely a tornado touch down in the northern outskirts of Boston basically. At the same time, we're good enough to infuse some science into our products for added value. At the very least a SVS update could have included some information about the TDS (in plain language). Believe me I was looking for one after I issued my TOR. Seems like ours was too weak and brief to loft much. Well I guess I was just surprised that every on-air met (as far as I know) didn't even try to mention that it looked like a tornado...or at least was afraid to do so until the survey confirmed it. That's what surprised me. I guess it just confirms that dual-pol probably isn't the most commonly known technology to many mets even here in the BOS area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 In any case, tstms in NNE and possibly into MA tomorrow. Could be some good ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Well I guess I was just surprised that every on-air met (as far as I know) didn't even try to mention that it looked like a tornado...or at least was afraid to do so until the survey confirmed it. That's what surprised me. I guess it just confirms that dual-pol probably isn't the most commonly known technology to many mets even here in the BOS area. I know we featured it in our media workshop. TDSs were covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 In any case, tstms in NNE and possibly into MA tomorrow. Could be some good ones.Hopefully some quarters smashing off the windshield as we drive around tomorrow here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I know we featured it in our media workshop. TDSs were covered. I think BOX did one as well? I know even here at work I've done some presentations on it to the group (mostly for the older folk) on it's benefits to aviation. You guys in the NWS have a greater need for it, but it has applications for me as well....and hell if nothing else...it's a good weenie tool..lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think BOX did one as well? I know even here at work I've done some presentations on it to the group (mostly for the older folk) on it's benefits to aviation. You guys in the NWS have a greater need for it, but it has applications for me as well....and hell if nothing else...it's a good weenie tool..lol. Awesome weenie tool. We've definitely been geeking out on some of our hail signatures lately up here. And in doing a little digging around for calls to action I found this from WDTB for those curious: "I touched upon the strengths of tornadic debris detection earlier in this lesson. Now that I have shown you the ins and outs of this signature, let me re-iterate exactly what the strengths of the TDS. If you identify a TDS, this is confirmation that a tornado is both occurring and doing damage. Get the word out immediately in an SVS that a tornado is confirmed or if no TOR has been issued, issue immediately and mention that damaging tornado is confirmed. Alert your partners using all normal methods . This signature, when identified properly, is the equivalent of video confirmation or a report from your best spotters. Put simply, the TDS by itself can be used to verify a tornado warning, at least until a damage survey team can get out there to check it out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Awesome weenie tool. We've definitely been geeking out on some of our hail signatures lately up here. And in doing a little digging around for calls to action I found this from WDTB for those curious: "I touched upon the strengths of tornadic debris detection earlier in this lesson. Now that I have shown you the ins and outs of this signature, let me re-iterate exactly what the strengths of the TDS. If you identify a TDS, this is confirmation that a tornado is both occurring and doing damage. Get the word out immediately in an SVS that a tornado is confirmed or if no TOR has been issued, issue immediately and mention that damaging tornado is confirmed. Alert your partners using all normal methods . This signature, when identified properly, is the equivalent of video confirmation or a report from your best spotters. Put simply, the TDS by itself can be used to verify a tornado warning, at least until a damage survey team can get out there to check it out." Exactly. The guidance leaves no ambiguity. There was no reason to wait 2 hours before saying what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tornadomachine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Anybody else going to see Into the Storm? I feel kind of obligated... Great find for the WDTB link. All mets, amateur or otherwise, should use their lessons, they have fantastic stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Anybody else going to see Into the Storm? I feel kind of obligated... Great find for the WDTB link. All mets, amateur or otherwise, should use their lessons, they have fantastic stuff. We're debating waiting for blu-ray so we can have a viewing party with plenty of beer. The meteorology definitely has the potential to be comical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutts Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 If the TDS is detected by algorithm why not just have some kind of alarm at the forecast office when one is detected in the CWA? If you are trying to minimize time from TDS to warning product, it stands to reason that you want to be aware of it asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 If the TDS is detected by algorithm why not just have some kind of alarm at the forecast office when one is detected in the CWA? If you are trying to minimize time from TDS to warning product, it stands to reason that you want to be aware of it asap. Well a TDS provides no extra lead time, as a tornado will already be on the ground doing damage when you see one. Reflectivity and storm relative velocity are still the preferred method of issuing a TOR. A TDS will provide confirmation that a tornado occurred, thus allowing the forecaster to update their warning stating such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tornadomachine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Well a TDS provides no extra lead time, as a tornado will already be on the ground doing damage when you see one. Reflectivity and storm relative velocity are still the preferred method of issuing a TOR. A TDS will provide confirmation that a tornado occurred, thus allowing the forecaster to update their warning stating such.Such as issuing a tornado emergency/confirmed tornado statement/PDS tornado warning, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Looks like some big time storms for us today in NH. Hoping to see quite a few trees down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weathafella Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Looks like some big time storms for us today in NH. Hoping to see quite a few trees down 12-18 trees with lollies to 24? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwiz Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Should see quite a few hailers today...perhaps even close to golf ball potential if any supercells form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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