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3/6 - 3/7 Event is it this seasons last gasp?


WXinCanton

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I'm really not expecting much for the RDU area, but I think this is going to be very close. One wild card we have is the snow cover to the north (basically north NC northward). Models are suppose to take this into account but I'm not sure how well they do this.

 

http://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims/ims_gif/DATA/cursnow_usa.gif

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Does anyone have the euro's qpf for GSO while surface temps are below freezing?

Thanks

TW


ECMWF Deterministic FORECAST FOR: GSO    LAT=  36.08 LON=  -79.93 ELE=   909

                                            12Z MAR05

                 2 M     850     SFC     SFC     700    6 HR     500    1000

                 TMP     TMP     PRS     RHU     RHU     QPF     HGT     500

                 ©     ©    (MB)    (PCT)   (PCT)   (IN)    (DM)     THK

WED 12Z 05-MAR  -1.6     3.6    1024      44      18    0.00     563     544   

WED 18Z 05-MAR   7.6     3.8    1022      44      33    0.00     563     546   

THU 00Z 06-MAR   2.4     3.6    1022      70      31    0.00     564     546   

THU 06Z 06-MAR  -0.3     1.1    1026      63      28    0.00     566     545   

THU 12Z 06-MAR  -2.0     0.5    1029      66      31    0.00     564     541   

THU 18Z 06-MAR   4.5     0.5    1027      53      32    0.00     564     542   

FRI 00Z 07-MAR   2.7     0.6    1024      66      85    0.00     563     544   

FRI 06Z 07-MAR  -0.2     1.8    1021      93      99    0.31     561     544   

FRI 12Z 07-MAR  -0.7     1.3    1017      91      97    0.52     558     544   

FRI 18Z 07-MAR   1.5     2.3    1014      88      93    0.26     557     546   

SAT 00Z 08-MAR   3.4     2.1    1014      83      63    0.14     558     547

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well the trends havent been horrible, and if this were about a month ago i would be excited, but i am just not convinced that since we are a week into march (esp for n ga) the one degree either way swing will be the colder degree lol.  looks like low to mid 30s and rain based on climo and the models not coming in "significantly" colder but showing fairly marginal up through nc.  while nc may be ok, if its marginal over that wide a difference the southern portions probably wont be under-the-margin so to speak. my other excitement-tempering thing is that even if it happens to hit 31/32 if there is that much falling latent heat release will prohibit much around here.  generally to get "decent" icing i like to see it at least around 30 or colder (that would be even more so for this time of year)

 

if the ull gets going, though, whoever is lucky enough to be under its path could see something though. 

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The clown gives GSO 10.3", ha.  850s are 1C, so I'd guestimate that's ~3" of IP or a hell of an ice storm.  Some 0C 850s creep into N NC, so a changeover to snow in some areas isn't impossible, I suppose, but it looks like pingermageddon or an ice storm for most of WNC.

 

It is a little colder than last night's run and it wouldn't take much more for snow.  Surface temperatures are in the 30-31 degree range, verbatim.

 

Asheboro's 850s are significantly worse than GSO, though.  It starts at 1C, then warms to 3-4C while GSO and N/W is still at 1C.

 

EDIT: Verbatim, Asheboro is 33-34, so it's too warm there.  Of course, the Euro usually runs warm.  Anyone S/E of GSO appears to warm, verbatim.  There's over 1" of QPF for all of WNC, though.

 

The 546 dam 1000-500 mb thickness line mostly hangs around south of GSO, for reference.

Hey James does the moisture on the Euro make it into SW VA or is it shunted to our south?

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12 euro from the maps I have 1-3" strip of snow from Asheville to Boone and along NW of 85 Corridor( South Hill, Roxboro, GSO,WS,CLT) then over to rain and lots of it. IF the 2m temps are true then lots of ZR. Temps gradually warm in the SW sections. 

 

Longer duration NW near Boone and along the VA border. As the system pulls away and the moisture stops the CAD begins to fall apart.

 

Buddy. You may see some light snow but the heaviest Qpf is focused to your south.

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ECMWF Deterministic FORECAST FOR: GSO LAT= 36.08 LON= -79.93 ELE= 909

12Z MAR05

2 M 850 SFC SFC 700 6 HR 500 1000

TMP TMP PRS RHU RHU QPF HGT 500

© © (MB) (PCT) (PCT) (IN) (DM) THK

WED 12Z 05-MAR -1.6 3.6 1024 44 18 0.00 563 544

WED 18Z 05-MAR 7.6 3.8 1022 44 33 0.00 563 546

THU 00Z 06-MAR 2.4 3.6 1022 70 31 0.00 564 546

THU 06Z 06-MAR -0.3 1.1 1026 63 28 0.00 566 545

THU 12Z 06-MAR -2.0 0.5 1029 66 31 0.00 564 541

THU 18Z 06-MAR 4.5 0.5 1027 53 32 0.00 564 542

FRI 00Z 07-MAR 2.7 0.6 1024 66 85 0.00 563 544

FRI 06Z 07-MAR -0.2 1.8 1021 93 99 0.31 561 544

FRI 12Z 07-MAR -0.7 1.3 1017 91 97 0.52 558 544

FRI 18Z 07-MAR 1.5 2.3 1014 88 93 0.26 557 546

SAT 00Z 08-MAR 3.4 2.1 1014 83 63 0.14 558 547

Thanks Jax. Another model with at least warning level frozen/freezing precip for GSO tomorrow night and Friday morning. TW
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 I just took a look at old wx maps for 3/1-15 for the period 1969-2004 (2005-2013 not easily attainable). For the 36 years of 3/1-15's (1969-2004), I was unable to find anything even close to as impressive as what is about to occur in terms of a strong NE high with great CAD in combo with a Gulf low of any kind, Miller A or B. ZERO cases even close! I had suspected it would be hard to find, but this confirms it for me. Therefore, I feel that what is about to happen may surprise many folks in the SE CAD zones of NC/SC/GA. Also, perhaps the models won't handle the low level cold well. I think that the potential from this storm is being taken too lightly by a good number here...my opinion.

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I just took a look at old wx maps for 3/1-15 for the period 1969-2004 (2005-2013 not easily attainable). For the 36 years of 3/1-15's (1969-2004), I was unable to find anything even close to as impressive as what is about to occur in terms of a combo of a strong NE high with great CAD in combo with a Gulf low of any kind, Miller A or B. ZERO cases even close! I had suspected it would be hard to find, but this confirms it for me. Therefore, I feel that what is about to happen may surprise many folks in the SE CAD zones of NC/SC/GA. Also, perhaps the models won't handle the low level cold well. I think that the potential from this storm is being taken too lightly by a good number here...my opinion.

Larry thanks for the hard work. Very interesting for sure. Is it close for us nega folks? What's the temps predicted to be when most of the moisture falls? Could models be slightly warm?

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Are there significant changes with the strength and placement of the High or ULL on the Euro that's causing more wintery precip?

 

The ULL was stronger, solid 2 contour and the HP was a hair stronger, but the biggest difference, IMO is the precip/SLP got here quicker, starts in NC a little before 7pm tomorrow night and hard precip around midnight, it was perfectly timed.  Not real sure how it can get any better....3 contour maybe  :weenie:

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Larry thanks for the hard work. Very interesting for sure. Is it close for us nega folks? What's the temps predicted to be when most of the moisture falls? Could models be slightly warm?

 

You're welcome. Yes, they could be slighty warm. Yes, it is close to say the least in CAD zones.

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 Also, I researched RDU ZR/IP CAD events in the first half of March between the 3/1971 event and 2004 and found these:

 

- 3/7-9/1989: pretty light but long duration included 1/2" IP

- 3/13/1980: light to moderate ZR

- 3/8/1978: light ZR

- 3/3/1978: significant ZR

 

 For the above four RDU events, the strong high CAD and Gulf low combo was nothing like what is about to occur!

 

 These are in addition to the 3/71, 3/62, 3/60 (several), and 3/48 SE CAD events.

 

 So, to repeat, nothing even close to the upcoming strong high/great CAD and Gulf low combo occurred even once during 3/1-15 during 1969-2004. Be wary!

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 Also, I researched RDU ZR/IP CAD events in the first half of March between the 3/1971 event and 2004 and found these:

 

- 3/7-9/1989: pretty light but long duration included 1/2" IP

- 3/13/1980: light to moderate ZR

- 3/8/1978: light ZR

- 3/3/1978: significant ZR

 

 For the above four RDU events, the strong high CAD and Gulf low combo was nothing like what is about to occur!

 

 These are in addition to the 3/71, 3/62, 3/60 (several), and 3/48 SE CAD events.

Could the generally above normal temperatures over the Arctic have anything to do with making this scenario just not cold enough?

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Also, I researched RDU ZR/IP CAD events in the first half of March between the 3/1971 event and 2004 and found these:

 

- 3/7-9/1989: pretty light but long duration included 1/2" IP

- 3/13/1980: light to moderate ZR

- 3/8/1978: light ZR

- 3/3/1978: significant ZR

 

 For the above four RDU events, the strong high CAD and Gulf low combo was nothing like what is about to occur!

 

 These are in addition to the 3/71, 3/62, 3/60 (several), and 3/48 SE CAD events.

 

 So, to repeat, nothing even close to the upcoming strong high/great CAD and Gulf low combo occurred even once during 3/1-15 during 1969-2004. Be wary!

My interpretation of what you're saying here is that this current situation is a much better setup (from a winter weather perspective) than those events that have produced winter weather in the past. If I'm not understanding that right, let me know. If I'm reading you correctly, though, why in the world is this still showing up as such a marginal event? Are all of the models really THAT bad, even at this close range? Why isn't it colder?

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Not sure what kind of affects this will have on the system tomorrow. Maybe slightly east with the SLP bc of a stronger wedge possible?! I personally still think this area into the traid might be too warm and mostly rain.

 

Which ever model you want to believe the general theme is the 0c 850 retreats to the north before majority of the precip comes in. Not enough wedging and cold air. Well even though its the rap and only 1 run so far I thought this was interesting. More of a potent ridge axis sliding down into NC with colder temps at the same time of day just before precip moves in tomorrow afternoon.

 

If the precip moves in with sub 32 temps at 850 may help to lock in the cold aloft with a hybrid CAD

 

Rap

rap_namer_018_850_temp_ht.gif

 

GFS

gfs_namer_024_850_temp_ht.gif

 

NAM

nam_namer_024_850_temp_ht.gif

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My interpretation of what you're saying here is that this current situation is a much better setup (from a winter weather perspective) than those events that have produced winter weather in the past. If I'm not understanding that right, let me know. If I'm reading you correctly, though, why in the world is this still showing up as such a marginal event? Are all of the models really THAT bad, even at this close range? Why isn't it colder?

 

 I don't have an answer. And the models may still be right in that it won't be cold enough. Who knows? I still haven't said it will definitely get bad. But I'm saying don't trust they'll be right considering the very rare situation for early March and be prepared for it to get bad just in case. And there is a warm bias for the Euro at least.

 

 Yes, that is correct when considering the look of the map. No granted, the sfc high for those 4 RDU ZR events could have been colder. However, only one high was stronger (1047 3/8/1989 but with no Gulf low..it was a mainly coastal event. The low was well offshore the SE US)

 

 Other 3

-3/13/1980: only a 1030 high

-3/8/1978: only a 1031 high

- 3/3/1978: only a 1028 high

 

Edit: I'll be out of pocket for awhile and may not be able to reply for awhile. Sorry. ;)

.

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You're welcome. Yes, they could be slighty warm. Yes, it is close to say the least in CAD zones.

 

i am certainly paying attention to this potential event, but keeping my expectations in check just due to past experience lol.  the dewpoint is 28 today and hopefully falls off tomorrow.  i think that rather than watching each model run at this point i am just tempering excitement and watching what happens.  the current temps are forecasted about 33/34 here tomorrow night.  if the cad starts moving in and dewpoints start dropping it could be a fun little late winter storm.  i have just seen too many 33 and rain storms to get too excited.  the models used to always underestimate the cold. but lately the cads havent really come in a lot colder (although the cold air this year has tended to be a bit more so than forecasted).  if the hp really does end up being close to that strong and a good position then a nice surprise could be in the offing.

 

also i am honestly surprised with just how bad the models have seemed to handle things this year even a day or so out (a week away doesnt surprise me). but with such extreme fluctuations even run to run its hard to put much faith in any of them really

 

for parts of ne ga, at least, it wont take much to end up with some zr over rain (just a few degrees).  too bad this wasnt last night when it was already in the low to mid 30s with dewpoints around 20 lol

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I don't have an answer. And the models may still be right in that it won't be cold enough. Who knows? I still haven't said it will definitely get bad. But I'm saying don't trust they'll be right considering the very rare situation for early March and be prepared for it to get bad just in case. And there is a warm bias for the Euro at least.

 

 Yes, that is correct when considering the look of the map. No granted, the sfc high for those 4 RDU ZR events could have been colder. However, only one high was stronger (1047 3/8/1989 but with no Gulf low..it was a mainly coastal event. The low was well offshore the SE US)

 

 Other 3

-3/13/1980: only a 1030 high

-3/8/1978: only a 1031 high

- 3/3/1978: only a 1028 high

 

Edit: I'll be out of pocket for awhile and may not be able to reply for awhile. Sorry. ;)

.

 

Gotcha. Thanks for the info. At the very least, this will be a new one to put in the case study file.

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Usually NAVGEM is warm, never seen it colder than other models, in fact it shows a pocket of 850's below 0C due to the ULL, which is what I expect, kind of surprised with a 2 contour ULL on the Euro we didn't see more of this...

 

I wish there were a lot more purples showing up in SE Canada. I think that would help a lot.

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