Pattern reload cold and snow discussion last week of February

[dendrite]

I would agree.

I'll admit...I like the highways salted so I can go back to driving 75mph within 24 hrs of a storm. Tilton salts the main roads, but Northfield is all sand. I'm fine with just sand on the side roads, but it makes the snowbanks look hideous.

You can see the salt damage to the trees along salted roads/highways easily. The deciduous trees usually color early and have less vibrance. The pine needles are pretty much orange all year.

[Ginx snewx]

My town uses sand, no issues, state roads use salt and suck, swear that salt makes pot holes worse.

[Connecticut Appleman]

The actual application rate of straight salt is typically only slightly higher than when a sand salt mix is used.  

 

As salt weighs less, plow routes can actually be longer since they are able to load more onto the plow trucks.

 

Sand will get bounced out of the wheel paths with somewhere around 50 +/- vehicles depending on speed.  

 

Phase 2 of the Stormwater Regulations require the removal of particulates with either sedimentation ponds or hydrodynamic separators that are very expensive to maintain.

 

Then there is the expense of cleaning up and disposing of the sand in the spring.

 

There is no reaction between salt and asphalt, but portland cement concrete is another story.

[Ginx snewx]

The actual application rate of straight salt is typically only slightly higher than when a sand salt mix is used.

As salt weighs less, plow routes can actually be longer since they are able to load more onto the plow trucks.

Sand will get bounced out of the wheel paths with somewhere around 50 +/- vehicles depending on speed.

Phase 2 of the Stormwater Regulations require the removal of particulates with either sedimentation ponds or hydrodynamic separators that are very expensive to maintain.

Then there is the expense of cleaning up and disposing of the sand in the spring.

There is no reaction between salt and asphalt, but portland cement concrete is another story.

At any rate, lol, going to need tons and tons more in the next 15 days. Woot woot

[wx2fish]

Salt is nasty. Had to replace the axle on the snowmobile trailor because it corroded. Learned my lesson and rinse it off after every trip now.

It is necessary to clear off main roads though, but I do think its overused at times. One morning this year driving to work they heavily salted 93 with a temp of 45f.

[CoastalWx]

SREFs have greater than 0.25" now for a good chunk of SNE.

[Ginx snewx]

SREFs have greater than 0.25" now for a good chunk of SNE.

nice the trend is evolving nicely

[CT Rain]

My town uses sand, no issues, state roads use salt and suck, swear that salt makes pot holes worse.

 

Really? There are only a few towns left using sand (Middletown uses salt/sand mix). Almost all of them now use salt exclusively with no sand. 

[Damage In Tolland]

I wonder if we'll wake up to WWA in the morning?

[CT Rain]

SREFs have greater than 0.25" now for a good chunk of SNE.

 

Wouldn't that be something if we wind up getting a band of 4" out of this. Looked like total garbage up until now. 

[Damage In Tolland]

Really? There are only a few towns left using sand (Middletown uses salt/sand mix). Almost all of them now use salt exclusively with no sand.

Stafford too. Sometimes I'll turn around at the town line because the light brown sand they use is just too much of an eyesore

[free_man]

Neat banter thread.  I say blow up the roads and there is no need to argue about sand, salt, and destroying the environment. They cause more harm than good.  

[Ginx snewx]

Really? There are only a few towns left using sand (Middletown uses salt/sand mix). Almost all of them now use salt exclusively with no sand.

Met Herb said the same, they might on the main roads but back roads are sand.

[Bostonseminole]

I would say salt is much worst than sand, both have the cons for sure.

[CoastalWx]

Wouldn't that be something if we wind up getting a band of 4" out of this. Looked like total garbage up until now. 

 

Yeah..lol. Well lets see what 00z tells us.

[CapturedNature]

Really? There are only a few towns left using sand (Middletown uses salt/sand mix). Almost all of them now use salt exclusively with no sand. 

 

I can't speak for other towns but I know that Somers, Stafford and Union still use salt/sand.

[Ginx snewx]

Stafford too. Sometimes I'll turn around at the town line because the light brown sand they use is just too much of an eyesore

apparently you need to move as the Sahara came to you. Latest sat shot Tolland looks like Mars, heard on the TV people are aghast in the Stepford wives neighborhoods up there.

[wxeyeNH]

Gotta chime in on the salt talk.  Last night driving home from Plymouth NH the rain had stopped and the roads were all drying out.  Temps were above freezing.  I thought finally we would have several days without all the salt on the roads but driving home the state salt trucks were everywhere applying salt to the dry main roads.  What a waste of money and environment.  Why do they salt dry roads after a storm????

[Connecticut Appleman]

Met Herb said the same, they might on the main roads but back roads are salt.

Some towns do still use sand salt mix particularly in hilly towns because the extra weight of the sand/salt mix as compared to straight salt helps them plow the hills.

 

Sorry to geek out on the whole salt thing, but I'm a civil engineer that specializes in pavements and I have spent a fair amount of time on this issue.

[Damage In Tolland]

I've always wondered something., on a nite like tonite with temps in the upper 30's right now and dews in the 20's.. Are we melting snow at all? I bet there's ice on the blacktop but air temps mild. Or is it just steady state snowpack?

[Damage In Tolland]

Some towns do still use sand salt mix particularly in hilly towns because the extra weight of the sand/salt mix as compared to straight salt helps them plow the hills.

Sorry to geek out on the whole salt thing, but I'm a civil engineer that specializes in pavements and I have spent a fair amount of time on this issue.

In your professional opinion.. What is more harmful to the environment.. Sand or salt?

[CoastalWx]

I've always wondered something., on a nite like tonite with temps in the upper 30's right now and dews in the 20's.. Are we melting snow at all? I bet there's ice on the blacktop but air temps mild. Or is it just steady state snowpack?

 

I bet if you go outside and feel the snow, there is a thin icy layer on top of it. Evaporational cooling.

[Ginx snewx]

I bet if you go outside and feel the snow, there is a thin icy layer on top of it. Evaporational cooling.

we don't walk at six feet, ground temps around 30

[Damage In Tolland]

Did SE Mass get to 55 today or no?

[Connecticut Appleman]

In your professional opinion.. What is more harmful to the environment.. Sand or salt?

Ironically, the amount of salt applied is only slightly higher with the salt only option as compared to the sand salt mix.  So for the sake of argument, lets assume the amount of salt is the same either way. 

 

The vast majority of the salt that is applied is flushed through the hydrologic system when there are higher flows following storms and in the spring.

 

Unfortunately, sand does not just flush through the system - it will settle out in the streams and other bodies of water.  So in most cases the sand is not necessary and only adds to the cost of cleaning up in the spring with sweeping and cleaning out of catch basins.

[CoastalWx]

Did SE Mass get to 55 today or no?

 

No, low 50s.

[Damage In Tolland]

Ironically, the amount of salt applied is only slightly higher with the salt only option as compared to the sand salt mix. So for the sake of argument, lets assume the amount of salt is the same either way.

The vast majority of the salt that is applied is flushed through the hydrologic system when there are higher flows following storms and in the spring.

Unfortunately, sand does not just flush through the system - it will settle out in the streams and other bodies of water. So in most cases the sand is not necessary and only adds to the cost of cleaning up in the spring with sweeping and cleaning out of catch basins.

That is very interesting . Thanks for breaking it down and clarifying. If we want sand we can go to the beach

[Bostonseminole]

Ironically, the amount of salt applied is only slightly higher with the salt only option as compared to the sand salt mix.  So for the sake of argument, lets assume the amount of salt is the same either way. 

 

The vast majority of the salt that is applied is flushed through the hydrologic system when there are higher flows following storms and in the spring.

 

Unfortunately, sand does not just flush through the system - it will settle out in the streams and other bodies of water.  So in most cases the sand is not necessary and only adds to the cost of cleaning up in the spring with sweeping and cleaning out of catch basins.

 

true that the na+ and cl- is easily washed and diluted in the high flow of spring run off but that might not always be the case.  As a pet owner I rather my town use sand rather than salt.

[wx2fish]

I bet if you go outside and feel the snow, there is a thin icy layer on top of it. Evaporational cooling.

Top of the snowpack and pavement were iced up here and it was 38f when I was out earlier. Its been bouncing up and down with the wind but down to 35f now.

[jamesnichols1989]

GFS and NAM more aggressive with the QPF output over interior SE MA and S RI, 18z runs.