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January Banter


Isopycnic

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I think it is better for folks to be prepared than caught off-guard. I bet the folks in Atlanta wish they knew snow was coming and stayed home from work and school Tuesday. And maybe this isn't snow, but it looks like it could be ice. The important thing is there could be a big storm next week, whether snow or ice, and people should be following it. It's almost as if on here people are not happy because it isn't snow so they don't care about it. Even though some places do show snow and then ice on the Euro. The important thing isn't that the Euro is wrong in showing all the snow but that there could be a big storm next weekend.

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Just read this interesting article about long range models and social media. I for one could care less what people do with a bs euro snow map. But this author has some great points on why we should care...

http://www.nj.com/weather-guy/index.ssf/2014/01/monster_blizzard_headed_to_nj_probably_not_but_social_media_is_a_powerful_thing.html

 

 

Good read -- thanks for posting! Exactly summarizes my opinion about it, and brings up some points I hadn't considered before.

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We gonna talk about Facebook and false snow maps or the new run of the GFS?

Well since this is the banter thread -- in case you missed it -- the new run of the GFS is in the discussion thread, so you should probably check over there :whistle:  (just messin' with you btw)

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Just read this interesting article about long range models and social media. I for one could care less what people do with a bs euro snow map. But this author has some great points on why we should care...

http://www.nj.com/weather-guy/index.ssf/2014/01/monster_blizzard_headed_to_nj_probably_not_but_social_media_is_a_powerful_thing.html

 

 

Good post, Strong.  Thanks for the article.  I hear the author, but I'm still not convinced that it's really a big deal.  It might be a headache for the NWS mets, but we all have different headaches with our jobs, and they're constantly changing.  We must learn to adapt.

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you're probably right! :lol:

 

Maybe that's the problem: there's no Snopes for weather models ;)

 

Yep -- it's just an interesting discussion topic these days, especially with what Atlanta just went through and already rumors of another storm on the horizon! Complex issue to think about.

 

If they grab up all the pizza & beer, then it is their fault! There's no convincing me otherwise :D

 

Good stuff, JWXnc.  I've enjoyed the friendly debate.

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Well since this is the banter thread -- in case you missed it -- the new run of the GFS is in the discussion thread, so you should probably check over there :whistle: (just messin' with you btw)

It's cool, I just await feedback and analysis on every run! I'm hooked on the chase and ups and downs! I know it's about GFS time and I'm on mobile, I'm ready for the GFS to cave to the euro!

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It's cool, I just await feedback and analysis on every run! I'm hooked on the chase and ups and downs! I know it's about GFS time and I'm on mobile, I'm ready for the GFS to cave to the euro!

 

Not there yet mackerel...I'm out to hr 153 on my maps so close!

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Calc,

 But it is misinformation. The misinformation shouldn't even be distributed to anyone, much less the general public. Because they're very inaccurate, what good does it do for the ignorant general public to see them? It is bad enough when they see accurate info. But inaccurate? Example: Euro clown maps yesterday showed 4" of snow in Savannah that day, which was essentially impossible with 850's well above 0C. How is it good for the largely ignorant general public to see maps showing 4": of snow yesterday when it had no chance to happen? Savannah got no snow whatsoever, which I pretty much expected and as the GFS clown showed..

 

Edit: Now I just read in the other thread that they're circulating maps for next weekend showing ATL getting a huge snow when the model isn't really doing that. OMG, this is really bad! I wish there was a way to outlaw clowns!

 

I saw some maps from that EuroWX site tonight.. I think the guy who wrote the F5Data server/modeling program came up with it.  Anyway, the maps were really freakin' accurate with snowfall through 240 hr.  None of this explosive & ridiculous stuff going on.

 

So it's not just the Euro data itself.  It's the way these people are generating their snow maps judging by just the 32 degree line.

 

Is it really hard to do something like:

if surface temps <= 0c & 850mb temps <= 0.5c then
consider precip as snowfall accumulation
else
if surface temps <= 0c & 850 temps > 0.5c then
consider precip as freezing rain
end if
end if

This is just random pseudocode to make sense; but it's not that hard.  Even I figured out how to script in Grads properly.. which is what a lot of these crap Euro maps are generated on.  I'm appauled that a company who's been around as long as accuweather offering a pro data service is generating the same crap.

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I think it is better for folks to be prepared than caught off-guard. I bet the folks in Atlanta wish they knew snow was coming and stayed home from work and school Tuesday.

They had a winter storm watch up for days then they got a winter weather advisory. Then at 3am it was changed to a winter storm warning "BEFORE!!!" the snow started falling. Plenty of time to decide weather to cancel school or not.
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They had a winter storm watch up for days then they got a winter weather advisory. Then at 3am it was changed to a winter storm warning "BEFORE!!!" the snow started falling. Plenty of time to decide weather to cancel school or not.

Are you kidding me!!!! These decisions to cancel stuff for the next day have to be made by 9pm the night before, Heck, just with school buses alone some are on the road at 5:30am. Not to metion parents and family jobs, planning, transportation industry. No. You make these all-call decisions the night before. Wake county did it right. Sure wasted an entire day, but didn't get caught like Atlanta. As for the NWS--making the call to WSW in the middle of the night did no good. Having said that, Atlanta should have known better watching the northwest trends and made the call the evening before.

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This is a good debate. Lots of people agreeing with each side

I have to side with calc on this one. It's info availible to everyone. How they use it is up to them. I believe eventualy they will figure out how difficult forcasting really is and leave it to to the more educated to tell them whats happening. It's a new toy right now. They will get bored when it doesn't work the way they want it to.

To me the ten day model is alot like trying to name the super bowl champion at the begining of the season. You have some good info but no where near enough to make a call. That does't stop some people from trying though.

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I think it is better for folks to be prepared than caught off-guard. I bet the folks in Atlanta wish they knew snow was coming and stayed home from work and school Tuesday. And maybe this isn't snow, but it looks like it could be ice. The important thing is there could be a big storm next week, whether snow or ice, and people should be following it. It's almost as if on here people are not happy because it isn't snow so they don't care about it. Even though some places do show snow and then ice on the Euro. The important thing isn't that the Euro is wrong in showing all the snow but that there could be a big storm next weekend.

 

I think they had a clue, there was a winter storm warning issued at 3 in the morning

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Are you kidding me!!!! These decisions to cancel stuff for the next day have to be made by 9pm the night before, Heck, just with school buses alone some are on the road at 5:30am. Not to metion parents and family jobs, planning, transportation industry. No. You make these all-call decisions the night before. Wake county did it right. Sure wasted an entire day, but didn't get caught like Atlanta. As for the NWS--making the call to WSW in the middle of the night did no good. Having said that, Atlanta should have known better watching the northwest trends and made the call the evening before.

This is not true.  They do not have to make that call by 9pm.  My ex wife was teacher and numerous times we have gotten the call at 430 to 5 in the morning that school was closed.

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This is not true.  They do not have to make that call by 9pm.  My ex wife was teacher and numerous times we have gotten the call at 430 to 5 in the morning that school was closed.

 

Yep this is definitely true here in Cherokee (I'm just a parent but I've seen it happen as well).

 

IMHO Cherokee kind of had an excuse in that we didn't have a warning in place that morning.  The superintendent started sending kids home as soon as he realized we were getting hammered with no warning in in place (it didn't come until hours later, in the afternoon).

 

However, it's like everyone in the metro counties was completely not paying attention to that 3:38am warning they got.  I get the feeling that a lot of them were just like Deal and his guys - from what I saw on the news, more than one of them admitted they had no idea there was even an upgraded storm warning in place until mid-morning, when everyone had already gone to work and school.  I don't know how off-hours notification works for those high up in the school administrations and government offices - maybe they just need a good old fashioned phone tree to wake everyone up and say "look at this". Sad, isn't it?

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I've worked for two school systems in the Atlanta area for the past 25 years. Most systems will wait to make the call early in the AM if things are marginal. 

 

I was posting radar maps at 5:42am letting people know what was imminent and was already letting people know what was going on in Birmingham long before it got here. If I can do it, these people in charge can do it.  

 

There was no surprise except for those with their heads in the sand.

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I'm having a little trouble with colors here, but I think CMC is showing Ice in N.NC  on this map from 00z last night? correct me if I'm wrong! And a nice snow for our Va. friends!!!

 

I_nw_g1_EST_2014013100_086.png

 

This is the banter thread. What do you think you're doing posting weather related stuff here? :axe:  :ee:    :gun_bandana:

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SENIOR DUTY METEOROLOGIST NWS ADMINISTRATIVE MESSAGE
NWS NCEP CENTRAL OPERATIONS COLLEGE PARK MD
1352Z FRI JAN 31 2014

THE 12Z NAM STARTED ON TIME.

12Z RAOB RECAP..

91348/PNI - PURGE TEMPS/HUMIDITY FROM 886MB TO 850MB; SUPER
             ADIABATIC LAPSE RATE
72365/ABQ - PURGE TEMPS/HUMIDITY 205 MB TO 200MB SUPER
             ADIABATIC LAPSE RATE.
71600/YSA - SHORT TO 463MB..
76256/GYM - 10142; GROUND EQUIP PROBLEM.
76405/LAP - 10142; GROUND EQUIP PROBLEM.
76692/HYY - 10158; FLIGHT EQUIP PROBLEM.

CRITICAL WEATHER DAY IS IN PLACE

START: 1800Z Thur Jan 30 2014
END:   0000Z Tue  Feb 04 2014

REASON FOR THE SUPER BOWL



SHRUELL/SDM/NCO/NCEP

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SENIOR DUTY METEOROLOGIST NWS ADMINISTRATIVE MESSAGE

NWS NCEP CENTRAL OPERATIONS COLLEGE PARK MD

1352Z FRI JAN 31 2014

THE 12Z NAM STARTED ON TIME.

12Z RAOB RECAP..

91348/PNI - PURGE TEMPS/HUMIDITY FROM 886MB TO 850MB; SUPER

             ADIABATIC LAPSE RATE

72365/ABQ - PURGE TEMPS/HUMIDITY 205 MB TO 200MB SUPER

             ADIABATIC LAPSE RATE.

71600/YSA - SHORT TO 463MB..

76256/GYM - 10142; GROUND EQUIP PROBLEM.

76405/LAP - 10142; GROUND EQUIP PROBLEM.

76692/HYY - 10158; FLIGHT EQUIP PROBLEM.

CRITICAL WEATHER DAY IS IN PLACE

START: 1800Z Thur Jan 30 2014

END:   0000Z Tue  Feb 04 2014

REASON FOR THE SUPER BOWL

SHRUELL/SDM/NCO/NCEP

so the model  run has the flu. !!!!!! 

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You can't hide information from people.  I see no problem with letting information out.  It is now up to the individual consumer what they choose to do with it.  The Euro snow maps are not some super-classified, government secret that only those with high-level clearance are allowed to see.  If people want to go crazy with this information, then let them.  It's their choice.  Others might choose to educate themselves and see what the map really means and how it's created.  That would be a great thing for our weather hobby/devotion/addiction that we all share on this board.  So, I must respectfully disagree with you on this, Larry.

Agree, so all of a sudden the people posting on this board are the "experts?"  Folks on here discuss soundings and Meteostar 7-10 days out like they're facts; mood swiings are wild; it's gonna snow, no it's gonna ice; no it's a torch.  Witness the "discussion" amongst red-taggers leading up to the even this week; they were "discussing" the validity of short-term models.  And "discussing" is a nice word. 

 

The weather is what it is; a more involved and interested public is good; there's so much information out there those who think they are more knowledgable can help educate the rest of us.  Hold public and appointed officials feet to the fire; if everybody sees it coming and they bury their heads in the sand then there will be repercussions.  Nobody here has a firm handle on what's going to happen so I have to chuckle when they think this is their little toy and nobody else can see it or use it. 

 

The more the merrier and when the next one hits hopefully more are prepared. 

 

And to the school bus issue; anybody who says schools have to make decisions at 9pm the night before really doesn't have a clue; they can make the call as late as when the busses start to roll in the morning.  Sure they'd like to do it a bit sooner but if a warning comes out @ 3:45am they can pull the trigger and cancel school.  They'd like to get the word sooner rather than later but 3:45am gave them plenty of time; Fulton Schools were idiots for having a full day; there's zero excuse for that stupid decision.

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All those coldinistas with their crazy cold Feb pattern may have to start back peddling soon. Unless models and indices are completely wrong, nothing cold looks to be on the horizon!

  

 

Honestly, I would be fine with it.  We have had plenty of cold for me this year.  And the 3 inches of snow has scratched the itch.  Not saying I wouldn't care for another good event but I'm pretty satisfied with this winter as is.  

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Honestly, I would be fine with it.  We have had plenty of cold for me this year.  And the 3 inches of snow has scratched the itch.  Not saying I wouldn't care for another good event but I'm pretty satisfied with this winter as is.  

Me too  :D    I've had record cold in between a slight thaw that kept me from getting too bored, a flizzard in Nov, and sleet, ice and snow just the other day. :wub:   I can't ask for much more in a winter pattern that is soooo close, but yet sooooo far  :lol: 

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I can't beleive Wake County schools are closed again today over 3 inches of snow. I know it's better to be safe than sorry, but either this is overkill or the DOT sucks at clearing roads here.

I said the same thing to my wife this morning. Our son just tracked back in (he's on year-round). He went back to school for 3 days and has been out for 4. Tuesday being closed was the head-scratcher. It's like since 2005, there's no evaluation that goes on anymore. Since one time in history, the perfect confluence of events trapped everyone on the road, the course now is to cancel everything.

I remember growing up, you would go to bed and school would be on. You would get up and go to school. Then you would get out early. Or you would get up and school would be delayed. Now, if it is supposed to snow at any point in the day, it's cancelled.

And I was never out for a week for 3-4 inches of snow. That's crazy.

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