Reconsider majoring in meteorology!

[Ed Lizard]

As just a dedicated amateur, I have noticed that only 1 TV station in Houston, KHOU, has all degreed mets. Gene Norman has an MS in meterorology, he replaced Dr. Neil Frank who had worked at NHC as chief met.

Maybe if AMS didn't give the seal of approval to communications and broadcast journalism majors because they took a 60 hour certificate program designed for people who don't have a math and science background, maybe they'd be more broadcast TV work for the pro-mets.

I feel for the guys who really want to be mets, my Dad who knew mets at American Airlines (he worked with Harold Taft in the 1950s, DFW area people know the late Harold Taft) said the money was poor and talked me out of it. If it is what people really want, then go for it. But at schools like A&M, OU, and Penn State that have petroleum engineering programs, starting BS pay is over $90k, and all those calculus, diff e.q. and physics classes are required for a BS in pet eng.

[isohume]

Interesting thread. This thread will probably be responsible for me getting my M.S. in meteorology.

Question for NWS/NOAA employees, what route did you take to get your job? I know it's incredibly difficult to get a government job. But what things can you do increase your odds or to make your resume better?

Experience will stand out on your resume more than anything else. I went to Iowa State and I started gaining experience the summer before my junior year. I was a student volunteer at the Des Moines NWS office for a summer where I gained invaluable procedural and forecasting experience. I then looked at the jobs board in the met dept and saw a year-long intern spot at the Iowa Dept of Natural Resources doing air quality forecasting and air pollution modeling. I jumped on that...even tho I knew it would be a hectic schedule commuting an hour and a half a day and working 20 hours a week during my junior year. The summer before and during my senior year I worked on a paid research project with one of my professors, which required me to be in the grad offices every weeknight for 4 hours a night.

By the time I started bidding out on NWS intern spots I had plenty of good experience to fill up my resume and make it highly competitive. I bid out on 3 intern spots and I was offered two of them in the first 3 months out of school. High grades are expected too...but real life experience is invaluable and it can really show your aptitude and motivation more than anything else imo.

[LocoAko]

The people that need to get out are the ones who are like "oh, meteorology sounds cool - i'd love to chase storms some day. After watching twister it looks like it'd be so fun". These are the people who are responsible for the soaring numbers of mets and a good deal of them would have probably choose another career if they new the realities of the field. This was the whole reason for my post.

This is true, and a few of them remain in my classes even going to into being a Spring semester Junior. However, most of those people don't love it enough to hack the math and drop out of the major in the first two years.

Besides, I know grades don't mean that much, but do the people who go into the major with that mindset normally get tons of internships and great grades? I doubt that is your main competition....

[SnowGoose69]

This is true, and a few of them remain in my classes even going to into being a Spring semester Junior. However, most of those people don't love it enough to hack the math and drop out of the major in the first two years.

Besides, I know grades don't mean that much, but do the people who go into the major with that mindset normally get tons of internships and great grades? I doubt that is your main competition....

I think he was more focusing on the people who fit that bill who do get through the program basically implying they are screwing everyone around them in the field and don't even really have much of an interest yet they are stealing alot of the jobs.

[LocoAko]

I think he was more focusing on the people who fit that bill who do get through the program basically implying they are screwing everyone around them in the field and don't even really have much of an interest yet they are stealing alot of the jobs.

He may be bitter, but if they did well in their classes and got internships and competed and got jobs, he has no right to blame them for that. They got it fair and square. IT doesn't make sense to dislike them because you don't deem them interested enough compared to you.

[stormguy80]

Those who are not REALLY into it will regret it after they get stuck moving thousands of miles to work at some sweat shop in Oklahoma and yes, they do end up driving salaries down and taking jobs. So everyone looses - including them. What's wrong with trying to prevent a loose / loose situation? Also, the programs aren't tough enough if they are allowing this many mets to get through.

He may be bitter, but if they did well in their classes and got internships and competed and got jobs, he has no right to blame them for that. They got it fair and square. IT doesn't make sense to dislike them because you don't deem them interested enough compared to you.

[VAwxman]

You're better off doing something else if thats the case though, most people enter this field anticipating they'll eventually get an NWS job since outside of very small percentage of private sector people thats the only way to financially get by, unless of course you have a 2nd income...I'm fortunate enough to be one of those few to make it in the private sector but it took awhile to do so.

You're in the private sector too? For some reason I had you pegged as a NWS guy too.

In any case, pretty depressing thread, but a lot of truth to it especially if you aren't willing to

1) Work for low pay for awhile in some "sweat shop" type job initially

2) Move away from your home region, sometimes very far away

3) Network, network, network... Always get to know as many on the inside as possible

4) Be the best met you can possibly be, and prove your motivation to others by making it clear that meteo is your passion, and not just a job to collect a paycheck.

If you do all of these things, you won't just land a job immediately, as it will still have challenges, but you will separate yourself some from others. I have seen far too many mets that do not do all of the things listed above, and it really cripples their chances. For example, in the energy field, where salaries are large, I know many who would probably be able to excel in this kind of work, but yet refuse to move to where the work is (most of the time down in Houston), so they wind up stuck somewhere like AccuWx where you will never make much.

[stormguy80]

Yeah. I'm not in the NWS now but have moved up to a private sector job that is fairly good. Trying to get into the NWS though and it shocks me that with more than 7 years experience it is still this difficult. I'm one of the top forecasters where I work right now and know people in the NWS.

You're in the private sector too? For some reason I had you pegged as a NWS guy too.

In any case, pretty depressing thread, but a lot of truth to it especially if you aren't willing to

1) Work for low pay for awhile in some "sweat shop" type job initially

2) Move away from your home region, sometimes very far away

3) Network, network, network... Always get to know as many on the inside as possible

4) Be the best met you can possibly be, and prove your motivation to others by making it clear that meteo is your passion, and not just a job to collect a paycheck.

If you do all of these things, you won't just land a job immediately, as it will still have challenges, but you will separate yourself some from others. I have seen far too many mets that do not do all of the things listed above, and it really cripples their chances. For example, in the energy field, where salaries are large, I know many who would probably be able to excel in this kind of work, but yet refuse to move to where the work is (most of the time down in Houston), so they wind up stuck somewhere like AccuWx where you will never make much.

[VAwxman]

Yeah. I'm not in the NWS now but have moved up to a private sector job that is fairly good. Trying to get into the NWS though and it shocks me that with more than 7 years experience it is still this difficult. I'm one of the top forecasters where I work right now and know people in the NWS.

Seems like having success getting into NWS goes in cycles. I don't know much about it myself, as I have never really had the desire to get in, but I know for awhile 3-4 years ago, seemingly everyone I knew from my AccuWx days got in all within 8-10 months. Now, from reading the threads, it is much more difficult, so it seems.

[stormguy80]

From what I've heard, it hasn't been "easy" to get in since at least the mid 90s. After '93 it got really difficult but this was even before the big explosion of mets. I hope your right and that it's cyclical meaning it will get better at some point in the future. My fear though is that it keeps getting worse and that's why 3-4 years ago, while I'm sure it was tough, it may have been easier getting in than now. If that's the case, 3 or 4 years from now it'll be even worse still. I just wanna know whose getting these jobs. Like I said, 7 years of experience and really good performance reviews, lots of diverse experience, etc..

Seems like having success getting into NWS goes in cycles. I don't know much about it myself, as I have never really had the desire to get in, but I know for awhile 3-4 years ago, seemingly everyone I knew from my AccuWx days got in all within 8-10 months. Now, from reading the threads, it is much more difficult, so it seems.

[VAwxman]

From what I've heard, it hasn't been "easy" to get in since at least the mid 90s. After '93 it got really difficult but this was even before the big explosion of mets. I hope your right and that it's cyclical meaning it will get better at some point in the future. My fear though is that it keeps getting worse and that's why 3-4 years ago, while I'm sure it was tough, it may have been easier getting in than now. If that's the case, 3 or 4 years from now it'll be even worse still. I just wanna know whose getting these jobs. Like I said, 7 years of experience and really good performance reviews, lots of diverse experience, etc..

Yeah with all the graduating mets we have these days, it's hard to see it becoming "easy" anytime soon, that's for sure. But I will stick to commenting more on the private sector which is where all of my experience is. I do think there is room for growth in the energy / renewables sectors in the coming years, but it's not like there won't be competition there either.

[SnowGoose69]

From what I've heard, it hasn't been "easy" to get in since at least the mid 90s. After '93 it got really difficult but this was even before the big explosion of mets. I hope your right and that it's cyclical meaning it will get better at some point in the future. My fear though is that it keeps getting worse and that's why 3-4 years ago, while I'm sure it was tough, it may have been easier getting in than now. If that's the case, 3 or 4 years from now it'll be even worse still. I just wanna know whose getting these jobs. Like I said, 7 years of experience and really good performance reviews, lots of diverse experience, etc..

Its gotten very hard the last 2 years from what I can tell....you are correct from about 93-04 it was it was tough and there was a brief window there from 04-08...if you didn't get in then you was screwed.....when I was in school mid 90s they basically told us AccWx or bust boys and girls!

[MGorse]

Question for NWS/NOAA employees, what route did you take to get your job? I know it's incredibly difficult to get a government job. But what things can you do increase your odds or to make your resume better?

I started with a college internship at a local TV station while attending SUNY Brockport (B.S. in meteorology and minor in mathematics). Not to long after this ended, a part time job opened there and it was mentioned to me to go ahead and apply since I was just there for an internship. Got the job so worked the early morning shift while still in college, then continued to work there part time after graduating. There was no need for another full time meteorologist at the time at this TV station so I started looking elsewhere. My goal was to work for the NWS some day. That did not happen at first, so I applied to several private sector companies. I was hired by AccuWeather and worked there for 3 years, then got hired by the NWS in 2003. I really enjoy my job and am thankful for it as it certainly sounds like the competition is much greater these days. Sometimes I think that before working for the NWS, one should work for either the media or private sector first to get a taste of that side. I felt it was an interesting perspective by working in the media, private and now government sector. I always tell college students in meteorology to get as much experience while they can while in college. Participate in internships, work on research projects that your professors are involved in, and even take on case studies. All great things to add to your resume.

[BillB]

Not to get anyone's hopes up, but in 5 years it will be 30 years since the beginning of the ramp-up to NWS Modernization staffing. Seems like yesterday to folks like Turtle and me.

A lot of folks usually hang around for a few years after 30. However for some that may be the excuse they are awaiting to retire...increasing the number of openings due to attrition. But with the numbers out there waiting to apply...and with more adding on every year...it still will be tough.

[Dopplerbob]

Maybe if AMS didn't give the seal of approval to communications and broadcast journalism majors because they took a 60 hour certificate program designed for people who don't have a math and science background, maybe they'd be more broadcast TV work for the pro-mets.

This is why they came out with the Certified Broadcast Meteorologist designation a few years back. There's a big difference between the old seal of approval and the current CBM. Obviously, this makes no difference to the public whatsoever, but to ND's, its a starting point.

[AtticaFanatica]

This is true although with Anchorage the questions seemed more geared for a professor with the paper crap.

It's probably not a useful prerequisite for most NWS positions, but I think you're short-changing peer-reviewed research just a tiny bit.

[baroclinic_instability]

It's probably not a useful prerequisite for most NWS positions, But I think you're short-changing peer-reviewed research just a tiny bit.

I am not, and I don't think he is either. It was a little absurd though because the higher bin went up to 18 peer reviewed published publications in a major journal.

[stormguy80]

At least someone told you the truth. It's just hard to believe so many people are flocking to this field still. I mean the market is trying to send a message with these low salaries that there are too many mets.

Its gotten very hard the last 2 years from what I can tell....you are correct from about 93-04 it was it was tough and there was a brief window there from 04-08...if you didn't get in then you was screwed.....when I was in school mid 90s they basically told us AccWx or bust boys and girls!

[stormguy80]

What are you guys referring to?

It's probably not a useful prerequisite for most NWS positions, but I think you're short-changing peer-reviewed research just a tiny bit.

[AtticaFanatica]

I am not, and I don't think he is either. It was a little absurd though because the higher bin went up to 18 peer reviewed published publications in a major journal.

That's a lot, true, what are the other bins?

[baroclinic_instability]

That's a lot, true, what are the other bins?

I don't remember exactly, but it started at zero of course then it ramped up quick. I think there were 5 bins skewed towards the low figures to account for the fact even most M.S degrees will likely only have one, maybe two if they did a really good senior project.

[isohume]

Not to get anyone's hopes up, but in 5 years it will be 30 years since the beginning of the ramp-up to NWS Modernization staffing. Seems like yesterday to folks like Turtle and me.

A lot of folks usually hang around for a few years after 30. However for some that may be the excuse they are awaiting to retire...increasing the number of openings due to attrition. But with the numbers out there waiting to apply...and with more adding on every year...it still will be tough.

I guess we wont see another era like that. The older guys at our office always tell me of the super bids in the 90s. 5 leads at almost every office...and then the backfill 5 journeys at almost every office? Wow! Seems like you just had to have your top locations picked out and there you go...promotion and all! Fun times.

[AtticaFanatica]

What are you guys referring to?

Some of the NWS applications have asked about the number of peer-reviewed authorships or co-authorships applicants have in major journals.

[stormguy80]

Yes, I've seen this question. In fact every one that I've applied for has had this question but what specifically about the Anchorage opening was going on with this question? Something about someone who had applied for this opening had 18 peer reviewed papers published?!

Some of the NWS applications have asked about the number of peer-reviewed authorships or co-authorships applicants have in major journals.

[nynjpaweather]

The people that need to get out are the ones who are like "oh, meteorology sounds cool - i'd love to chase storms some day. After watching twister it looks like it'd be so fun". These are the people who are responsible for the soaring numbers of mets and a good deal of them would have probably choose another career if they new the realities of the field. This was the whole reason for my post.

If they only went into meteorology because of a movie than they will drop to the way side sooner or later. If you are good, one way or another you'll make it. It's as simple as the cream rises to the top. I'm not saying it's easy, I"m saying it's up to you to do it.

[AtticaFanatica]

Yes, I've seen this question. In fact every one that I've applied for has had this question but what specifically about the Anchorage opening was going on with this question? Something about someone who had applied for this opening had 18 peer reviewed papers published?!

I didn't apply, but I think the top "bin" for authorships is now 18 publications, perhaps it was fewer in the past, I'm not sure.

[stormguy80]

top 'bin'? what does that mean? Basically just that to get the highest score for that question you have to have 18 published since that's what one of the applicants had?

I didn't apply, but I think the top "bin" for authorships is now 18 publications, perhaps it was fewer in the past, I'm not sure.

[AtticaFanatica]

top 'bin'? what does that mean? Basically just that to get the highest score for that question you have to have 18 published since that's what one of the applicants had?

I'm not sure, I've never applied for an NWS position, but that sounds right.

[stormguy80]

wow.

I'm not sure, I've never applied for an NWS position, but that sounds right.

[brettjrob]

If they only went into meteorology because of a movie than they will drop to the way side sooner or later.

I can think of counterexamples from personal experience.

If you are good, one way or another you'll make it. It's as simple as the cream rises to the top. I'm not saying it's easy, I"m saying it's up to you to do it.

I can think of counterexamples from personal experience.

Not saying those aren't good rules of thumb, but you have to remember that like any other situation involving human discretion, the acceptance/hiring/promotion process in this field has its flaws.