Reconsider majoring in meteorology!

[#NoPoles]

I know that vets are not simply handed jobs. I never said that. They have to have the qualifications as you say. But if you have two applicants who are both basically qualified as say, a gs-9 and the vet, while being basically qualified do to schooling and experience, doesn't have anything else on his resume that really makes him stand out as a top candidate for the meteorology job and the other guy (not vet) does, I don't think it's fair that the MIC has no choice but to hire the Vet even if he wanted to pick other guy. Instead of giving Vets these kind of perks that are unfair to others applying for Govt jobs we should be paying them better and making sure they are well taken care of in terms of health benefits and what not for serving our country.

I agree with you but there are probably better and more effective ways to state your cause than minimizing others.

actually, I enjoy research papers and launching weather balloons, and doing calculus, and physics...

my response was not to belittle anyone, my response was to the statement in bold...I feel military service is something that makes you stand out, over and above the ability to complete a research paper or launch a weather balloon

[baroclinic_instability]

I never like it when the veteran subject comes up because it is a very sensitive subject. How can anyone argue against someone who has put their life on the line for their country? I have friends who have died in the military (one a good friend who died at age of 20) in Iraq. What I dislike is this often devolves into a veteran vs. non-veteran discussion, something it was never meant to be. Veterans performed a special purpose very few can ever claim, but I do believe the job should go to the best qualified. Is a Ph.D the most qualified? An experienced and trained meteorologist? A veteran? The hiring process is far from perfect, and it never will be, but I hope non-vets will consider the sacrifice of vets, and I hope vets will consider the sacrifice of long-term students/graduate students who have advanced meteorology to where it is today (compare it to 50 years ago). Life is unfair for everyone and there isn't much we can do but try the best we can.

[#NoPoles]

I never like it when the veteran subject comes up because it is a very sensitive subject. How can anyone argue against someone who has put their life on the line for their country? I have friends who have died in the military (one a good friend who died at age of 20) in Iraq. What I dislike is this often devolves into a veteran vs. non-veteran discussion, something it was never meant to be. Veterans performed a special purpose very few can ever claim, but I do believe the job should go to the best qualified. Is a Ph.D the most qualified? An experienced and trained meteorologist? A veteran? The hiring process is far from perfect, and it never will be, but I hope non-vets will consider the sacrifice of vets, and I hope vets will consider the sacrifice of long-term students/graduate students who have advanced meteorology to where it is today (compare it to 50 years ago). Life is unfair for everyone and there isn't much we can do but try the best we can.

you make a better diplomat than I...

this is subject that I am passionate about...and if my passion rears it's head while I'm debating, then so be it...

[AtticaFanatica]

I never like it when the veteran subject comes up because it is a very sensitive subject. How can anyone argue against someone who has put their life on the line for their country? I have friends who have died in the military (one a good friend who died at age of 20) in Iraq. What I dislike is this often devolves into a veteran vs. non-veteran discussion, something it was never meant to be. Veterans performed a special purpose very few can ever claim, but I do believe the job should go to the best qualified. Is a Ph.D the most qualified? An experienced and trained meteorologist? A veteran? The hiring process is far from perfect, and it never will be, but I hope non-vets will consider the sacrifice of vets, and I hope vets will consider the sacrifice of long-term students/graduate students who have advanced meteorology to where it is today (compare it to 50 years ago). Life is unfair for everyone and there isn't much we can do but try the best we can.

Yes.

[vortmax112]

I agree it stands so maybe that was a poor choice of words on my part. Other things stand out too though so let the hiring official make his choice based on what he is looking for. Like I said, I think our service men and women are underpaid and its a shame some of them have such a hard time getting the help they need when they return. But I fundamentally dissagree with forcing someones hand on a hiring decision. I hear your argument but lots of people have some pretty intense life experiences they've gone through, being raised by abusive or neglectful parents or what not - any number of things. Should they all get that kind of preference too?

actually, I enjoy research papers and launching weather balloons, and doing calculus, and physics...

my response was not to belittle anyone, my response was to the statement in bold...I feel military service is something that makes you stand out, over and above the ability to complete a research paper or launch a weather balloon

[OSUmetstud]

I don't have a problem with the way vets preference is done.

Each and every one of has a choice of joining the military and serving in a forward area and putting your life on the line. This is a policy wherein the government gives back to the vets for their sacrifice. If you don't like it...you can sign up tomorrow and get your vet preference in a few years. Now, I think there certainly is some potential for better candidates being overlooked in deference to a veteran...but I think it's a small price to pay. Having a better resume doesn't even really make you a better forecaster, anyway.

[brettjrob]

i'm just amazed that there are people out there who feel this way...

first off, not in my lifetime...or many lifetimes yet to come, will there ever be any services or "perks" that could ever come close to compensating those who have served and sacrificed in the military...

2nd, this benefit is only for govt jobs...and Vets have worked for/served the govt...

i'm sorry, but someone who has veterans status sure stands out in my book, over someone who spent their life in academia where their biggest worry was some research paper, or launching a weather balloon

That doesn't make much sense to me, from a practical standpoint. A vet's "sacrifice," in general, does not correlate with forecasting aptitude or even the potential for development of such aptitude. (Granted, if the veteran was a forecaster in the military, that is valuable experience and should be treated as such). A graduate student or private forecaster, while arguably not "sacrificing" as much, has gained additional experience and knowledge relevant to the job.

I'm not trying to minimize yours and other vets' sacrifice (any more than you were trying to minimize those of us in academia), but I do think that with such a surplus of applicants to most NWS positions, MIC's should be selecting from among the most-qualified. That will include some vets and some non-vets, of course.

[isohume]

I know that vets are not simply handed jobs. I never said that. They have to have the qualifications as you say. But if you have two applicants who are both basically qualified as say, a gs-9 and the vet, while being basically qualified do to schooling and experience, doesn't have anything else on his resume that really makes him stand out as a top candidate for the meteorology job and the other guy (not vet) does, I don't think it's fair that the MIC has no choice but to hire the Vet even if he wanted to pick other guy. Instead of giving Vets these kind of perks that are unfair to others applying for Govt jobs we should be paying them better and making sure they are well taken care of in terms of health benefits and what not for serving our country.

The only time an MIC has to hire a vet is when the gold panel is "blocked" by 3 vets. The MIC is then obliged to hire a vet. The MIC doesn't have to hire a vet against a non-vet in most situations. In most situations, the vet is given a 5-point preference added to their final multiple and then they are scored along with everyone else. The MIC then has the choice on who they want to interview and hire. As far as the qualifications go...there is no way to know which person (vet, non-vet) is more qualified...only the hiring officials can determine that based on their needs. Besides, many times the vet is ex-Air Force weather and they bring much aviation wx experience to the table. Something which is highly valued for NWS jobs.

[SnowGoose69]

The other issue to remember is that often times, even in the case of an intern the MIC is trying to fill a focal point hole. If the last intern or perhaps one of the journeyman who just left was the webmaster for the office page he or she is going to be looking for qualified interns with strong HTML/programming abilities to replace this slot assuming the office does not have someone else already on staff readily able to take over the role. Same goes if they recently lost someone who was responsible for the outreach or hydrology sectors, they would try to find a candidate with some public presentation/media or hydrological experience respectively...its not always there but if it is that said candidate will have a significant edge over the others.

[OSUmetstud]

If at some point in the future vets are so numerous that they completely block out all non-vets from being considered, then I'd consider a change in policy. Right now, that just isn't even close to the case. It seems like vets do block some of the panels...but probably not most...and definitely not all.

Experience still does matter in vets vs. non-vets. If a vet is just a vet with a BS met degree..he would not make GS-09 grade. Therefore, non-vets at GS-09 would still be considered on equal footing to a vet or vets that were referred at GS-07 and GS-05. The MIC is not required to choose a vet in a case like that.

For example, I was referred to Spartanburg, SC and Charleston, WV at GS-07 and GS-09, but not at GS-05. Vets were qualified at GS-05 so they were referred, while non-vets at that grade were not. Gold candidates at GS-07 and GS-09 were referred to the MIC.

[SnowGoose69]

I think you'd be surprised at how little forecasting there is in undergrad. I mean, it is there, but it isn't a primary focus. I gather most forecasting skills are picked up along the way (using the knowledge you gained in school) and on-the-job. I know that even at bigger programs like Penn State, while graduate school is obviously researched-focused, they even have forecasting classes at the graduate level. So don't get too down about it.

IMO the U.S. National Weather Service needs to adopt similar training programs to which many other National Weather Services around the world have including the Canadian, UK Met Office, and BoM have whereby all incoming forecasters I think are subject to an 8-12 month course which teaches forecasting...too many incoming Mets have next to no experience and the only reason that the forecasts that do get put out in this country are superior to those around the world is that we have the best forecasting models by a large margin as well as a massive upper air network.

[OSUmetstud]

IMO the U.S. National Weather Service needs to adopt similar training programs to which many other National Weather Services around the world have including the Canadian, UK Met Office, and BoM have whereby all incoming forecasters I think are subject to an 8-12 month course which teaches forecasting...too many incoming Mets have next to no experience and the only reason that the forecasts that do get put out in this country are superior to those around the world is that we have the best forecasting models by a large margin as well as a massive upper air network.

the euros might disagree

[turtlehurricane]

I think you'd be surprised at how little forecasting there is in undergrad. I mean, it is there, but it isn't a primary focus. I gather most forecasting skills are picked up along the way (using the knowledge you gained in school) and on-the-job. I know that even at bigger programs like Penn State, while graduate school is obviously researched-focused, they even have forecasting classes at the graduate level. So don't get too down about it.

It must be different everywhere. Wisconsin had a major focus on forecasting the weather along with the science. Synoptic meteorology, mesoscale meteorology, and radar and satellite took me from a novice to actually knowing what I'm doing. Other classes added bits and pieces to the forecasting puzzle too.

[isohume]

IMO the U.S. National Weather Service needs to adopt similar training programs to which many other National Weather Services around the world have including the Canadian, UK Met Office, and BoM have whereby all incoming forecasters I think are subject to an 8-12 month course which teaches forecasting...too many incoming Mets have next to no experience and the only reason that the forecasts that do get put out in this country are superior to those around the world is that we have the best forecasting models by a large margin as well as a massive upper air network.

Forecasting is more of an art than a science. In that I mean you can tell folks to look at A, B and C all you want...such as is taught now with the NWS forecaster development program. However...the only way to add skill and become highly proficient at the multitude of forecasting challenges is through subjective experience and learning from the experience of others. IMO.

[LocoAko]

It must be different everywhere. Wisconsin had a major focus on forecasting the weather along with the science. Synoptic meteorology, mesoscale meteorology, and radar and satellite took me from a novice to actually knowing what I'm doing. Other classes added bits and pieces to the forecasting puzzle too.

Well both our synoptic and mesoscale courses have extremely heavy focuses on forecasting (we're required to forecast every day, write summaries if we bust, use GEMPAK to forecast, etc.) but I'm not going to claim that when you graduate with a B.S. that you're a "good" forecaster just because you earned a BS and I think you know that wouldn't be true too - that was my point.

[OSUmetstud]

Well both our synoptic and mesoscale courses have extremely heavy focuses on forecasting (we're required to forecast every day, write summaries if we bust, use GEMPAK to forecast, etc.) but I'm not going to claim that when you graduate with a B.S. that you're a "good" forecaster just because you earned a BS and I think you know that wouldn't be true too - that was my point.

I didn't feel like a fish out of water when I left SUNY Oswego to work in Bermuda...synoptic 1 and 2, the forecast game, and the student website all helped hone forecasting skills. However, I still learned a hell of a lot about forecasting while working in Bermuda for 3 1/2 years. Isohume is right that forecasting is a bit of an art. This is why knowledgeable amateurs can occasionally outforecast meteorologists.

[KBPPradmet11]

I don't have a problem with the way vets preference is done.

Each and every one of has a choice of joining the military and serving in a forward area and putting your life on the line. This is a policy wherein the government gives back to the vets for their sacrifice. If you don't like it...you can sign up tomorrow and get your vet preference in a few years. Now, I think there certainly is some potential for better candidates being overlooked in deference to a veteran...but I think it's a small price to pay. Having a better resume doesn't even really make you a better forecaster, anyway.

Blindly saying everyone has a choice is not accurate. Some folks have medical conditions and physical limitations that will automatically make that person ineligible for military service.

[AtticaFanatica]

Blindly saying everyone has a choice is not accurate. Some folks have medical conditions and physical limitations that will automatically make that person ineligible for military service.

I think we all get what he meant.

[wxdudemike]

So, long-time lurker here. Doesn't say this on the profile, but I'm a meteorologist.

I think these days it's strongly preferable to have an advanced degree for most parts of the field. If you're doing broadcasting, there seems to be a bias against advanced degrees (they're looking for a communicator, so an advanced science degree is an overqualifier for most stations). But generally, a master's degree makes you a stronger prospect for job openings, and will allow you to advance further.

It's a double-edged sword with PhDs, however. The education is a plus. But, many private companies recognize that PhDs expect to be paid that much more, and that doesn't fit with a lot of bottom lines. If you're doing a PhD, it might make it harder to find an opening, as you're overqualified for the entry-levels.

I opted to stop at master's level and followed some of the other recent masters' grads from my program into the energy industry. Most of my colleagues who did PhDs are in some combo of research/academia, and the ones who stuck with the bachelor's either did broadcasting or left the field. That's been my experience anyway.

P.S. On another note, for NWS, I believe 15% of their hires had advanced degrees in 1985. today, the number is more like 85%. Unless you're a SCEP or something, you'll likely need a master's to get a job offer from the NWS.

I'm definitely interested in the energy industry or doing short-term and long term forecasting operationally. Did you take any business classes or get a different minor to help you with that? It seems like that might be a plus...

[wxdudemike]

See the post above. In private met, I hate to say it, but experience is the most desired. What is pretty pathetic these days, however, is all met companies want experienced forecasters. That said, there are still companies that will hire non experienced mets because they can pay them less, and there simply isn't a huge pool of experienced mets applying for entry level jobs. Try road weather companies like Meridian (where I started) or NW Weathernet. There are many others as well.

I'm halfway through my 2nd year in college and have been forecasting for about five years now, although unfortunately not for an official job lol Kind of seems like it is hard to find those entry jobs to just gain some experience for your resume. I guess moving around a lot is something that is common in the private sector business side also instead of just with broadcasting.

[Visiteur]

I'm definitely interested in the energy industry or doing short-term and long term forecasting operationally. Did you take any business classes or get a different minor to help you with that? It seems like that might be a plus...

I was a business minor in undergrad. As for my colleagues, I'm unsure (although I know one has a degree in landscape architecture, then went back to school for her bachelor's and master's in meteorology). I think that for someone looking to get involved in something in "business applications of meteorology", it brings something to the table to set you apart from other candidates.

[FreshAJ]

I moved from the TV and the aviation side of operational forecasting into the energy industry. I've also hired entry level energy trade floor meteorologists in the past. What we looked for was a couple of things: 1) Experience in Forecasting (not necessarily in Energy) 2) Communication 3) How you take Criticism 4) Knowledge of weather models and climate diagnostics....there's obviously other factors but these are the main ones. Communication is so important in energy trading...you just cant be a quiet weather geek behind the desk in this job...the traders will have you for breakfast.

You have to speak your mind...be ready to defend your opinion...and if your'e wrong...be ready to shout out the update before the traders can potentially lose a lot of money of your earlier forecast. You'll need to be able to take the heat and move forward from it. It's a fast paced, challenging atmosphere....but in my opinion it's the best operational weather job out there! So, my point is a minor in business is not really going to help...it's how you present yourself, what experience you have, and even your personality that will set you apart from others.

With that being said, I think there is a future in meteorology and it's going towards the side of how weather affects the markets. I think companies are seeing a lot of profits lost from the risk of severe weather...(ie agriculture, trains, ships, construction, travel operators, the Walmarts, etc, list goes on and on...etc etc). Weather derivatives, weather risk modeling, and long term forecasting for companies is a growing field and I think that's where the future in meteorology is heading. The good news is that we always need Energy regardless of any recession....so this job sector should remain pretty strong going forward too!

AJ

I was a business minor in undergrad. As for my colleagues, I'm unsure (although I know one has a degree in landscape architecture, then went back to school for her bachelor's and master's in meteorology). I think that for someone looking to get involved in something in "business applications of meteorology", it brings something to the table to set you apart from other candidates.

[wxdudemike]

Thanks for the opinions. It just seems like there are so many minors that could "possibly help" to choose from

[usedtobe]

the euros might disagree

Yes as would the ukmet guys as their model scores better than the GFS. Most offices I think have journeyman and interns so there is a place to learn forecasting. Plus, I think the training of the NWS is better on average than in the private sector. There are training modules and the Weather Event Simulator (http://www.wdtb.noaa.gov/tools/wes/index.htm) where they can work on canned forecast problems.

[Rainman]

It's hard to think this hasn't been brought up already, but people with degrees in the atmospheric sciences are among the most employed in the country. It goes without saying that not all the jobs in which these people are working are in meteorology. Better advice might be to reconsider WORKING in meteorology, since it's next to impossible to find a job in the field. Majoring in meteorology, on the other hand, is a brilliant idea if you like having a job.

[Ellinwood]

It's hard to think this hasn't been brought up already, but people with degrees in the atmospheric sciences are among the most employed in the country. It goes without saying that not all the jobs in which these people are working are in meteorology. Better advice might be to reconsider WORKING in meteorology, since it's next to impossible to find a job in the field. Majoring in meteorology, on the other hand, is a brilliant idea if you like having a job.

It has been brought up... more than once... including in this thread.

[vortmax112]

I don't think it's cause and effect..i.e. majoring in meteorology causes your chances of being employed to go way up. I think it's more that people who choose to major in meteorology AND succeed in completing the degree are hardworking, intelligent, and highly motivated people which also happen to be charactoristics that make you likely to be employed.

It's hard to think this hasn't been brought up already, but people with degrees in the atmospheric sciences are among the most employed in the country. It goes without saying that not all the jobs in which these people are working are in meteorology. Better advice might be to reconsider WORKING in meteorology, since it's next to impossible to find a job in the field. Majoring in meteorology, on the other hand, is a brilliant idea if you like having a job.

[wxmanmitch]

I moved from the TV and the aviation side of operational forecasting into the energy industry. I've also hired entry level energy trade floor meteorologists in the past. What we looked for was a couple of things: 1) Experience in Forecasting (not necessarily in Energy) 2) Communication 3) How you take Criticism 4) Knowledge of weather models and climate diagnostics....there's obviously other factors but these are the main ones. Communication is so important in energy trading...you just cant be a quiet weather geek behind the desk in this job...the traders will have you for breakfast.

You have to speak your mind...be ready to defend your opinion...and if your'e wrong...be ready to shout out the update before the traders can potentially lose a lot of money of your earlier forecast. You'll need to be able to take the heat and move forward from it. It's a fast paced, challenging atmosphere....but in my opinion it's the best operational weather job out there! So, my point is a minor in business is not really going to help...it's how you present yourself, what experience you have, and even your personality that will set you apart from others.

With that being said, I think there is a future in meteorology and it's going towards the side of how weather affects the markets. I think companies are seeing a lot of profits lost from the risk of severe weather...(ie agriculture, trains, ships, construction, travel operators, the Walmarts, etc, list goes on and on...etc etc). Weather derivatives, weather risk modeling, and long term forecasting for companies is a growing field and I think that's where the future in meteorology is heading. The good news is that we always need Energy regardless of any recession....so this job sector should remain pretty strong going forward too!

AJ

What types of met jobs do you think are best suited for the "quiet weather geek"? I'll be totally honest, verbal communication has never been my strong point, and this has probably hindered my ability to land a job in the field. It seems like what you said is not only true with energy met jobs, but with operational met jobs in general. Unfair as it is, it seems as if many employers value communication ability over talent.

[Rainman]

It has been brought up... more than once... including in this thread.

Thank you for that feedback.

[wxdudemike]

I moved from the TV and the aviation side of operational forecasting into the energy industry. I've also hired entry level energy trade floor meteorologists in the past. What we looked for was a couple of things: 1) Experience in Forecasting (not necessarily in Energy) 2) Communication 3) How you take Criticism 4) Knowledge of weather models and climate diagnostics....there's obviously other factors but these are the main ones. Communication is so important in energy trading...you just cant be a quiet weather geek behind the desk in this job...the traders will have you for breakfast.

You have to speak your mind...be ready to defend your opinion...and if your'e wrong...be ready to shout out the update before the traders can potentially lose a lot of money of your earlier forecast. You'll need to be able to take the heat and move forward from it. It's a fast paced, challenging atmosphere....but in my opinion it's the best operational weather job out there! So, my point is a minor in business is not really going to help...it's how you present yourself, what experience you have, and even your personality that will set you apart from others.

With that being said, I think there is a future in meteorology and it's going towards the side of how weather affects the markets. I think companies are seeing a lot of profits lost from the risk of severe weather...(ie agriculture, trains, ships, construction, travel operators, the Walmarts, etc, list goes on and on...etc etc). Weather derivatives, weather risk modeling, and long term forecasting for companies is a growing field and I think that's where the future in meteorology is heading. The good news is that we always need Energy regardless of any recession....so this job sector should remain pretty strong going forward too!

AJ

Did you also consider any additional education in how to work with trading commodities or in business? Or is a lot of that on-the-job training and you were most concerned with weather knowledge/communication?