Reconsider majoring in meteorology!

[stormguy80]

Please read this if you're thinking of meteorology for a career..I know its long but it may save you years of frustration!

The number of people who are majoring in meteorology has skyrocketed in recent years and is still increasing. As a result, the number of recent grads seeking employment greatly outnumbers the number of job openings and it gets worse each year. This issue was discussed in the AMS magazine June 2008 issue and at various conferences. I can tell you from first hand experience the problem is real.

According to estimates, the number of new meteorology grads each year as of 2008 was somewhere between 600 and 1000. This number is very large considering that there is only 6 or 7 thousand working in the field. Estimates also put the number of entry level job openings each year at around 285 meaning that less than half of new grads will be able to find work.

The oversupply of qualified meteorologists has drastic consequences that go far beyond the difficulty of simply finding a job. If you are lucky enough to break into the field you will have to go wherever the job takes you since few are fortunate enough to get enough offers allowing them to be choosy. The 2^nd major thing is salary and work environment. The oversupply has driven salary levels down to obscenely low levels. Since NWS jobs are incredibly competitive to get (only about 40 openings a year and hundreds of job seekers) most are forced to obtain employment in the private sector where starting salaries are in the 21-25 k range. I can tell from experience that in the early 2000s, $20,000 / year was a common number. What’s more, raises are often very small and if you do manage to last long enough to climb close to 30 k, you will have a high risk of being laid off unless you have well above average forecasting skills as companies prefer the cheap labour they can get from eager and willing new grads. Since the private companies have so much leverage over employees due to the oversupply, the workload and the work environment is extremely demanding. Why? They can get away with it because if you quit you are easily replaceable! You will be working your tail off - essentially chained to a desk for the duration of your shift dealing with a heavy client load who will call non-stop during times of active weather leaving you little time to properly analyze and forecast the weather. Also, working more than 40 hrs per week with no overtime is common and some places even have 45-50 hour weeks built into the schedule for certain parts of the year. Employees must also deal with awkward shift schedules which may include hours like 2 - 11 am or even split shifts. Why? It’s all about suiting the needs of the company and clients and if employees don’t like it they are replaceable. I wish I could say that the above experience I described in private sector meteorology is the exception but the reality is that it’s the norm. There are some exceptions but only the very top qualified people will get these better jobs in the private sector. As for the NWS, you can pretty much write it off as a job option unless you have an advanced degree and did a student internship with them and even then it will still be really tough to get in. Bottom line, only a few percent of today’s grads will manage to break into the NWS. As for well paying TV jobs, they are equally if not even more competitive. Again, most start in small markets where the pay is 15-25 thousand/year and only a small number make it to big time.

So the big question…Why does meteorology get listed among the top 50 careers? The answer is ignorance of the writers of these articles and also that the stats are easy to “spin”. Here’s how: Take the issue of salary…Average and even median salaries are pretty good (60-80 k) but the reality is these numbers are skewed up by high paying 80k + jobs in government that only a small percent of today’s grads will be able to get as discussed. So most new or recent grads will be stuck in the low paying private sector. Then there’s job growth. While it may be true that the field is growing somewhat faster than average, the number of new grads is exploding!.. as also discussed. This needs to be factored into the equation and when it is, the outlook is far starker. And again all the growth is in the private sector - I know, enough said about that. Finally, according to the “experts” who write these articles the stress level is “not too bad”. This may be true some of the time if you are in the NWS where the domain sizes are small but it is far from the truth in the private sector where you’ll be dealing with a very demanding workload spanning clients across the whole globe.

A final note, as bad as things are now, the future will be worse. That is almost a guarantee. Forecasting is becoming increasingly automated. Using graphical forecasting software, you can literally have just one desk at one building for forecasting the whole country, or at least a large portion of it. The grids in these graphical forecasts can be populated with model data that on many days doesn’t require much modification. The data then goes downstream and is formatted into icons and words via an automated process. So yes, the secret is out!..the icon or sentence forecasts you see today are not “hand crafted” in the format you are viewing. They are mass produced graphically and then converted. What does all this mean? It means increasingly few people are needed to do the job of forecasting. Think about it….ONE desk currently forecasts for a whole country at certain companies while the NWS has 122 offices, each with about 20 people, for forecasting across the US. This status quo in the NWS is almost guaranteed not to last too much longer and it’s already extremely competitive! It could literally get a hundred or more times worse.

Finally though, if you really, really, really, really love meteorology and absolutely can’t see yourself ever doing anything else and you are still not deterred after all this then go for it. However, I suspect a large number of current met majors would change their majors if they knew the truth about how bad it was which I’m trying to tell you.

　

[Guest someguy]

folks

I dont t who wrote this but its crap.

I mean total BS

Why? It’s all about suiting the needs of the company and clients and if employees don’t like it they are replaceable.

WELL FREAKING DUH!!!!!

which company in america in this near depreesion severe recession is NOT like that???

Please read this if you're thinking of meteorology for a career..I know its long but it may save you years of frustration!

The number of people who are majoring in meteorology has skyrocketed in recent years and is still increasing. As a result, the number of recent grads seeking employment greatly outnumbers the number of job openings and it gets worse each year. This issue was discussed in the AMS magazine June 2008 issue and at various conferences. I can tell you from first hand experience the problem is real.

According to estimates, the number of new meteorology grads each year as of 2008 was somewhere between 600 and 1000. This number is very large considering that there is only 6 or 7 thousand working in the field. Estimates also put the number of entry level job openings each year at around 285 meaning that less than half of new grads will be able to find work.

The oversupply of qualified meteorologists has drastic consequences that go far beyond the difficulty of simply finding a job. If you are lucky enough to break into the field you will have to go wherever the job takes you since few are fortunate enough to get enough offers allowing them to be choosy. The 2^nd major thing is salary and work environment. The oversupply has driven salary levels down to obscenely low levels. Since NWS jobs are incredibly competitive to get (only about 40 openings a year and hundreds of job seekers) most are forced to obtain employment in the private sector where starting salaries are in the 21-25 k range. I can tell from experience that in the early 2000s, $20,000 / year was a common number. What’s more, raises are often very small and if you do manage to last long enough to climb close to 30 k, you will have a high risk of being laid unless you have well above average forecasting skills as companies prefer the cheap labour they can get from eager and willing new grads. Since the private companies have so much leverage over employees due to the oversupply, the workload and the work environment is extremely demanding. Why? They can get away with it because if you quit you are easily replaceable! You will be working your tail off - essentially chained to a desk for the duration of your shift dealing with a heavy client load who will call non-stop during times of active weather leaving you little time to properly analyze and forecast the weather. Also, working more than 40 hrs per week with no overtime is common and some places even have 45-50 hour weeks built into the schedule for certain parts of the year. Employees must also deal with awkward shift schedules which may include hours like 2 - 11 am or even split shifts. Why? It’s all about suiting the needs of the company and clients and if employees don’t like it they are replaceable. I wish I could say that the above experience I described in private sector meteorology is the exception but the reality is that it’s the norm. There are some exceptions but only the very top qualified people will get these better jobs in the private sector. As for the NWS, you can pretty much write it off as a job option unless you have an advanced degree and did a student internship with them and even then it will still be really tough to get in. Bottom line, only a few percent of today’s grads will manage to break into the NWS. As for well paying TV jobs, they are equally if not even more competitive. Again, most start in small markets where the pay is 15-25 thousand/year and only a small number make it to big time.

So the big question…Why does meteorology get listed among the top 50 careers? The answer is ignorance of the writers of these articles and also that the stats are easy to “spin”. Here’s how: Take the issue of salary…Average and even median salaries are pretty good (60-80 k) but the reality is these numbers are skewed up by high paying 80k + jobs in government that only a small percent of today’s grads will be able to get as discussed. So most new or recent grads will be stuck in the low paying private sector. Then there’s job growth. While it may be true that the field is growing somewhat faster than average, the number of new grads is exploding!.. as also discussed. This needs to be factored into the equation and when it is, the outlook is far starker. And again all the growth is in the private sector - I know, enough said about that. Finally, according to the “experts” who write these articles the stress level is “not too bad”. This may be true some of the time if you are in the NWS where the domain sizes are small but it is far from the truth in the private sector where you’ll be dealing with a very demanding workload spanning clients across the whole globe.

A final note, as bad as things are now, the future will be worse. That is almost a guarantee. Forecasting is becoming increasingly automated. Using graphical forecasting software, you can literally have just one desk at one building for forecasting the whole country, or at least a large portion of it. The grids in these graphical forecasts can be populated with model data that on many days doesn’t require much modification. The data then goes downstream and is formatted into icons and words via an automated process. So yes, the secret is out!..the icon or sentence forecasts you see today are not “hand crafted” in the format you are viewing. They are mass produced graphically and then converted. What does all this mean? It means increasingly few people are needed to do the job of forecasting. Think about it….ONE desk currently forecasts for a whole country at certain companies while the NWS has 122 offices, each with about 20 people, for forecasting across the US. This status quo in the NWS is almost guaranteed not to last too much longer and it’s already extremely competitive! It could literally get a hundred or more times worse.

Finally though, if you really, really, really, really love meteorology and absolutely can’t see yourself ever doing anything else and you are still not deterred after all this then go for it. However, I suspect a large number of current met majors would change their majors if they knew the truth about how bad it was which I’m trying to tell you.

　

[BaltimoreWxGuy]

I cant disagree with what you said, but not a very popular first post from a new member. lol

[stormtracker]

you will have a high risk of being laid unless you have well above average forecasting skills as companies prefer the cheap labour they can get from eager and willing new grads.

　

I would think this would have the opposite effect of your warning? I think there will probably be many more people who will switch to meteorology now.

[BaltimoreWxGuy]

I would think this would have the opposite effect of your warning? I think there will probably be many more people who will switch to meteorology now.

HAHA I was going to qoute that same part...we all know what he meant though.

[donsutherland1]

For another perspective, one can read the Department of Labor's Occupational Outlook Handbook (2010-11 edition):

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos051.htm

[Ellinwood]

folks

I dont t who wrote this but its crap.

I mean total BS

Why? It’s all about suiting the needs of the company and clients and if employees don’t like it they are replaceable.

WELL FREAKING DUH!!!!!

which company in america in this near depreesion severe recession is NOT like that???

This, but more grammatically correct

I lol'd at the "forced into the private sector" part, like it was some sort of despicable evil.

Nearly all mets. work odd hours even into middle-aged or older years unless they land a top job or go into management. I happen to love my 2:30am-11:30am schedule because I get the afternoon off to do shopping when everyone's at work or I can go storm chasing

I'd like to get some data on the 21-25k salary range with poor raises, as I am rather skeptic about those figures. Maybe in certain companies...

The second to last paragraph about how everything's getting automated and that you need less forecasters to do the job is complete bull.

I'd like to hear what qualifies you to make all of the statements in your original post.

While it is still difficult to get a met job for those starting out, you'll have to make some sacrifices like living somewhere that you didn't want to or starting out in a part-time position, but if you really do like the weather and forecasting then stick with it.

[Mallow]

This, but more grammatically correct

I lol'd at the "forced into the private sector" part, like it was some sort of despicable evil.

Nearly all mets. work odd hours even into middle-aged or older years unless they land a top job or go into management. I happen to love my 2:30am-11:30am schedule because I get the afternoon off to do shopping when everyone's at work or I can go storm chasing

I'd like to get some data on the 21-25k salary range with poor raises, as I am rather skeptic about those figures. Maybe in certain companies...

The second to last paragraph about how everything's getting automated and that you need less forecasters to do the job is complete bull.

I'd like to hear what qualifies you to make all of the statements in your original post.

While it is still difficult to get a met job for those starting out, you'll have to make some sacrifices like living somewhere that you didn't want to or starting out in a part-time position, but if you really do like the weather and forecasting then stick with it.

This.

The original post is hyperbole, IMO. It has some basis in truth, sure (the met field can be a tough one to get started in), but I think the poster had some personal experiences that are making it seem worse than it actually is.

[stormguy80]

Well, what a nice welcome! What you say is obviously true to a point but my point is that in meteorology this is true tenfold over most other jobs. Have you ever heard the term meteorology "sweatshop"? Well, I got news for you, I worked for one of them and its as bad as people say. I know many others who went through the same experience. Like I said, not ALL places are like that but the majority of private sector places are. How about you actually try to process what I meant next time before immediately bashing me?

folks

I dont t who wrote this but its crap.

I mean total BS

Why? It’s all about suiting the needs of the company and clients and if employees don’t like it they are replaceable.

WELL FREAKING DUH!!!!!

which company in america in this near depreesion severe recession is NOT like that???

[LongIslandWx]

Not a popular topic from a new poster indeed, but I'd been willing to bet the poster has had frustrating personal experiences and needed a forum to vent. That being said, I can't disagree with the majority of what he has said. I personally have suffered from a lot of setbacks, but I didn't give up and am happy with my current situation in the field. I even rejected some job offers because I thought the salary was way too low and worked for near minimum wage at some part time jobs. But I had the support of a very loving family, so I was fortunately able to weather these situations.

[LongRanger]

I saw that writing on the wall back when I was a meteorology student decades ago. Back then I observed that even volunteering at no pay did not draw interest. When I switched to computer science, within months I had companies out bidding each other for my work. Given how much is automated now, I can easily imagine the job situation in meteorology is even worse these days. I'm glad I kept the science as a hobby but made a career out of something in more demand.

[Terpeast]

I can empathize with the poster because I've had two years of frustrating underemployment while looking for a NWS job through USAJOBS (horrible horrible system) and other weather related jobs throughout the country. I finally landed a job in the wind energy industry in Texas, so I'm happy and extremely grateful.

If you want to work in the renewable energy industry, that could be a good way to go. Might want to consider environmental science if not meteorology, and take some engineering or computer programming classes as well.

[LongIslandWx]

Computer programming will help out immensly. I didn't have too much experience in that and I believe it has hurt me along the way.

[stormguy80]

What really gets to me is that in almost every other field that’s as bad as meteorology in these ways the truth about it is well known and accepted. For example, I have a close relative who pursued a career as a trombone player and he was well warned about what he was getting into and how bad it can be finding a job and making good pay as a musician. But in meteorology the difference in what the perception is (lots of great jobs and opportunities) vs. the reality (few jobs) is greater than in almost any other field. People are always hyping up the “growth in the private sector” and all the new opportunities that will present themselves due to concern about climate change and severe weather / hurricanes. This continues to draw more unsuspecting people into the field and then the problem gets even worse. The truth needs to be told and then people can decide for themselves. That’s all I’m saying.

[Mallow]

What really gets to me is that in almost every other field that’s as bad as meteorology in these ways the truth about it is well known and accepted. For example, I have a close relative who pursued a career as a trombone player and he was well warned about what he was getting into and how bad it can be finding a job and making good pay as a musician. But in meteorology the difference in what the perception is (lots of great jobs and opportunities) vs. the reality (few jobs) is greater than in almost any other field. People are always hyping up the “growth in the private sector” and all the new opportunities that will present themselves due to concern about climate change and severe weather / hurricanes. This continues to draw more unsuspecting people into the field and then the problem gets even worse. The truth needs to be told and then people can decide for themselves. That’s all I’m saying.

Maybe that's where our difference in opinion lies. I have been told all along that jobs are relatively few and far between. Did your school tell you otherwise? Or perhaps someone else?

[jm1220]

Minor in another field such as econ or finance. That will give you a diverse background and make you more marketable to various employers, particularly energy companies.

[baroclinic_instability]

Matters what you want to do. Regardless, you need to be an over-achiever and show you can make it to potential empoyers. First jobs are key to get the experience, and having a lot of internships and undergraduate experiences will better the chance. A good example is the NWS...they hire about 70-80 per year for the various positions and about 800-1000 graduate per year! Private sector is another option but they generally pay a lot less (generally) and those openings aren't really growing very fast either. Simple fact is, without considering how good you are or who you know, 70+% will never get a job. Chew on that.

[aslkahuna]

Back in the day when I was still working (I was lucky and worked for Sam although even there you have to put up with a lot of BS), we would refer to the el cheapo private companies as "Whorehouses" instead of sweatshops because the workers were always getting screwed and most of the money went to the owners. Best choice these days and even then there are limits is with the Military.

Steve

[stormguy80]

Yes, when I was in school almost 10 years ago this is what I was told. I was told this by profs and the older students near graduation who were so happy they had finished the hard part of dynamic, etc.. They told us there were lots of new opportunities presenting themselves in the private sector despite the federal hiring slack.

Maybe that's where our difference in opinion lies. I have been told all along that jobs are relatively few and far between. Did your school tell you otherwise? Or perhaps someone else?

[Ellinwood]

FWIW to those who are looking... I got a full-time entry level position last in Feb. 2010. I graduated with a B.S. in Atmospheric Science and minors in Math and Comp. Sci. in May 2009, and I spent one semester of graduate school in Fall 2009. I had the summer internship with the NWS, a summer research job in meteorology amongst a few other things. Having good communication skills is also very important in this industry. Before I got this job, I had had interviews with 4 other companies and could have had one with a 6th interview with another company, and all of those took place between October and January.

Get good grades, diversify yourself, and get as much experience as you can.

[H2Otown_WX]

Sounds like I should get out now while I still have the chance...

[okie333]

Computer programming will help out immensly. I didn't have too much experience in that and I believe it has hurt me along the way.

Most of the highest-paying NOAA/NWS jobs are comp-sci people with a background in meteorology anyway from what I gather... those computer models don't create themselves (though an experimental technology may one day allow such models to exist... at that point human forecasters will gradually be replaced by computers, and even TV mets will be replaced by people who read natural-language computer output... by that time computers may even be issuing watches and warnings)

[stormguy80]

well congradulations but not everyone is going to be in the top few percent who manage to get good jobs.

FWIW to those who are looking... I got a full-time entry level position last in Feb. 2010. I graduated with a B.S. in Atmospheric Science and minors in Math and Comp. Sci. in May 2009, and I spent one semester of graduate school in Fall 2009. I had the summer internship with the NWS, a summer research job in meteorology amongst a few other things. Having good communication skills is also very important in this industry. Before I got this job, I had had interviews with 4 other companies and could have had one with a 6th interview with another company, and all of those took place between October and January.

Get good grades, diversify yourself, and get as much experience as you can.

[baroclinic_instability]

Another route is M.S. degree, and a lot of students are now doing that to better diversify themselves. Problem with that is a lot of students are doing that, and nobody looks that much better on paper in the end, especially if they have no experience. A good example of this job market is, during an interview with an NWS office, the MIC told me two Ph.D's applied for the intern opening!

It is a real tough market right now, and meteorology is no exception. This market, for whatever reason, continues to explode and undergraduate rates are skyrocketing. It seems logical to believe hyped television shows such as Storm Chasers as well as the general fascination with extreme weather in general have driven this explosion, and I see no end within the next five years.

[Terpeast]

FWIW to those who are looking... I got a full-time entry level position last in Feb. 2010. I graduated with a B.S. in Atmospheric Science and minors in Math and Comp. Sci. in May 2009, and I spent one semester of graduate school in Fall 2009. I had the summer internship with the NWS, a summer research job in meteorology amongst a few other things. Having good communication skills is also very important in this industry. Before I got this job, I had had interviews with 4 other companies and could have had one with a 6th interview with another company, and all of those took place between October and January.

Get good grades, diversify yourself, and get as much experience as you can.

You were one of the few lucky ones. From what I gather, it only took you 5 months to get a job, and that's during the worst recession since 1930s. It took me 2 whole years to find a private sector job that pays well, and that was with a masters degree in met and a bachelors in IT... before the recession started. It's BRUTAL out there. Good grades and experience are not going to be enough. You're right on diversifying yourself - that will get you through the door if you have good computer skills, engineering skills, finance skills, or ______ skills that the company in question is looking for.

[Terpeast]

the MIC told me two Ph.D's applied for the intern opening!

That doesn't surprise me. I actually started my PhD program before landing the job I have now. I did apply to intern NWS positions while I was a "PhD" student.

[Ellinwood]

well congradulations but not everyone is going to be in the top few percent who manage to get good jobs.

Out of the 9 people who graduated with me with a B.S. in Atmos. Sci., two of us have full-time jobs and one has a part-time job, all as forecasters. Two of the atmos. people that went the B.A. route (out of about 6-8) have broadcast met jobs. The rest of the B.S. graduates are all in graduate school or just finished. And this was the group that graduated in one of the worst times to get into the real world in recent history.

I'm sure it's different at other schools, but that's what happened at SUNY Albany.

You were one of the few lucky ones. From what I gather, it only took you 5 months to get a job, and that's during the worst recession since 1930s. It took me 2 whole years to find a private sector job that pays well, and that was with a masters degree in met and a bachelors in IT... before the recession started. It's BRUTAL out there. Good grades and experience are not going to be enough. You're right on diversifying yourself - that will get you through the door if you have good computer skills, engineering skills, finance skills, or ______ skills that the company in question is looking for.

I did start looking in March, so it took about 10 months in total. Virtually no one was hiring entry level from March-June. I took a job-hunt hiatus for the most part in August-September, but then the job market started to open back up in October so I went for it and got in.

I stopped applying to the NWS in June... I'd like to think I saved myself a bit of time trying (EDIT: Though it is suggested that you DO keep trying!)

If you really want to look into what kinds of private sector jobs are being offered, http://www.nwas.org/jobs.php is a really good place to start. (EDIT: It looks like that will be going to a paid service in January, so get your looking in now!)

Another good site is the AMS jobs page: http://careercenter.ametsoc.org/c/search_results.cfm

[H2Otown_WX]

Do you think part of the problem is a lot of the on-air meteorologists don't have a B.S. in the field but rather they go to a university like Mississippi State that offers a "Certificate in Broadcast Meteorology" which, from what I understand, is basically the equivalent of getting a minor in meteorology. There are a lot of people out there who just want to be on TV and it seems like this program at MSU caters to that and screws over a number of people who have legitimate degrees.

[baroclinic_instability]

I would think this would have the opposite effect of your warning? I think there will probably be many more people who will switch to meteorology now.

I give stormtracker credit for even reading this far in to that diatribe to find this typo.

"you will have a high risk of being laid unless you have well above average forecasting skills as companies prefer the cheap labour they can get from eager and willing new grads. "

[Guest someguy]

I give stormtracker credit for even reading this far in to that diatribe to find this typo.

"you will have a high risk of being laid unless you have well above average forecasting skills as companies prefer the cheap labour they can get from eager and willing new grads. "

and to let you know how wrong the Original Poster is

I am a pretty good forecaster and hell I never get laid

ask my wife