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December 24-25 Snowstorm


Jim Martin

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Euro @ 72 has 500 MB energy centered over Central NM while the GFS has it along the NM/TX border at same time. So Euro slightly slower.

tombo:

hr 84 has a sub 1016 low over northern tx lgt precip from mn to tx...mod precip over tx and ok

the s/w is a lot stronger than 12z so far

hr 90 sub 1016 low over dallas lgt precip iowa south to tx...mod precip eastern tx and ok

Euro is still very different with a strong 500 MB vort over N TX prolly near Dallas @ 96.

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Funny how the models were unanimously in agreement for several days on a strong storm further north. What were they seeing then that they aren't now? I think they will revert back eventually to a stronger and further north track. How many times have we seen models lose a storm for a day or two, only to revert back to the original thinking later on.

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Here is my guess. I posted in 0Z discussion 10 mins ago but they are too crazy over the incoming Euro.

A lot of interesting discussion and analysis here. I haven't been completely up to date on this one, but doing a quick analysis, it seems the potential for a good east coast hit seems to hinge the most on how the northern stream eventually phases with the PV Anomaly near the Gulf States. The 0Z GFS essentially treats the PV as an "ejecting" S/W trough which incites cyclogenesis ahead of the main trough which develops a strong leading edge cyclone with cold air advection turning towards the east coast as opposed to heading southward towards the GOM. The other solution favored by tonights CMC, the ECMWF, and to a degree, by the 12Z GFS, is to phase the southern PV and "absorb" it into the northern stream which then enhances the strength of CAA southward towards the GOM. This in turn develops a much deeper upper trough and eventually a much more energetic baroclinic wave up the east coast.

One thing I will say regarding the solutions is the amount of CAA all solutions develop in the low levels. It is difficult for equatorward low level cold air to suddenly shift direction and head eastward as in the 0Z GFS. It would take a sufficiently intense PV to initiate strong enough cyclogenesis to result in an eastward displacement of that low level cold air and the eventual northern cyclone the GFS develops. While the 0Z GFS certainly could be a valid solution, I find the deeper trough solutions more realistic given all model guidance have trended towards a much weaker southern stream PV Anomaly. As a result, I find a solution which results in continued CAA and a deeper developing trough more realistic then the oddball northern cyclone the GFS currently has. A weaker PV Anomaly, once phased, won't incite sufficiently strong cyclogenesis to shunt the low level CAA eastward but strong enough to enhance the continued equatorward flow of CAA, thus developing the trough deeper before ejecting the leading wave along the Gulf Stream. In terms of the GFS, the 12Z solutions seems more realistic given the circumstances. That is how I read it, at least.

With regards to our region, I find the latest CMC, the 12Z ECM, and the 12Z GFS more realistic than the latest 0Z GFS. Tough call though...making broad forecast here, not a region specific one. Haven't seen the 0Z ECMWF yet, sounds south though, but may end up OTS.

Forget it, definitely not OTS, sounds like a crippler to I-95 again.

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I'm being a realist. The euro nailed the MW storm last time. EURO has the low in FL at 120.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about. In that storm the Euro was all by itself (track across Iowaish) while nearly every other model had a track much farther south. The Euro won in the end.

The difference between the Euro and the other models this time is that the phase comes much later on the Euro.

The end result is going to be an east coast storm no matter what model you look at though.

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I wasn't trying to be harsh or anything Dilly. Sorry if it came out like that. All I am saying is I would believe the EURO way more then any other model. EURO was all alone with the north solution in the first big storm here. GFS/GEM/UKIE etc were all in KY/TN/GA in that area, and the EURO took the low to Chicago even 120+ hours out. Guess what solution won out in the end?

It's the same situation, except the EURO sucks for the MW while GFS/GEM give snow to some of the posters here.

I wouldn't get excited at all until within 72 hours out, or until the EURO shifts with the rest of the guidance.

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Euro is often too slow right? That is it's issue maybe....Tough forecast for sure. The GEM came a bit back tonight so the Euro appears to be on it's own except the ukie I guess has a crazy GOM track or whatever...

Last time I ditched the Euro at this range (that MW storm a couple weeks ago) I got majorly burned so i hate doing it again.

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I wasn't trying to be harsh or anything Dilly. Sorry if it came out like that. All I am saying is I would believe the EURO way more then any other model. EURO was all alone with the north solution in the first big storm here. GFS/GEM/UKIE etc were all in KY/TN/GA in that area, and the EURO took the low to Chicago even 120+ hours out. Guess what solution won out in the end?

It's the same situation, except the EURO sucks for the MW while GFS/GEM give snow to some of the posters here.

I wouldn't get excited at all until within 72 hours out, or until the EURO shifts with the rest of the guidance.

I will say one thing. The north 0Z GFS seems highly unlikely owing to the amount of low level CAA.

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Even though the Euro has done very well lately, this is a totally different type of storm system than what we've been used to seeing as of late. It seems that certain models handle different storm types better than others. Since the Euro seems almost ridiculously south, I'm not quite buying it at this point. Especially with the baroclinic zone further north. My gut feeling places this storm further to the north, as more of a compromise between the Euro and the GFS/GEM. The southern Midwest would really do well with that compromise IMHO. It's all just fun speculation of course at this point.:popcorn:

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Even though the Euro has done very well lately, this is a totally different type of storm system than what we've been used to seeing as of late. It seems that certain models handle different storm types better than others. Since the Euro seems almost ridiculously south, I'm not quite buying it at this point. Especially with the baroclinic zone further north. My gut feeling places this storm further to the north, as more of a compromise between the Euro and the GFS/GEM. The southern Midwest would really do well with that compromise IMHO. It's all just fun speculation of course at this point.:popcorn:

sounds very realistic to me IMO... maybe closer to the GFS on the compromise...

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pretty soon this will be the new years eve storm. Lets see, ggem has a low heading out of the southeast up the coast at 120....im starting to wonder if us folks here in the ov should start rooting for the ggem and euro to begin a trend nw and turn this into an app runner, seems like there's plenty of time

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