The 2013-2014 Ski Season Thread

[powderfreak]

Nice shot of Superstar! That pic is a spring classic...lift and trail. It wouldn't be the same if they strung the lift through the woods on the right or something. The set up is perfect for watching your friends from the lift and likewise playing Hollywood on the way down. Being right next to the parking lot and the umbrella bar...no other area will come close to touching that set up. Spring skiing as you know isn't about the high quality of skiing (I'm sure you know this), but about the atmosphere. The quality is often glaciated granular that can be frozen, firm even at relatively warm temps if the sun isn't out, etc... its usually really really good or really really bad depending on the weather with a lot less inbetween. This is why atmosphere or party is such a big deal...creating that feel good vibe each weekend is what Killington knows how to do in the spring.

[Skivt2]

Superstar headwall yesterday. It was great. The Ubar was a genius addition. What more could you want.......bar and grill with a big deck and a bathroom right at the bottom of the premier spring mogul trail. No one does spring like Killington. They even provide ice water all day for everyone. People who buy the spring pass for $199.00 which starts in March and goes to close get a great deal. We are seeing people from all the other closed mountains. Skied Superstar from 9:30-5:00 Sunday on top of a 10:30-5:00 day Saturday. Big big bumps all day were great but my legs are tired. Next weekend is a given. Everyone is hoping there is some snow left to open Memorial Day weekend.

[powderfreak]

A friend who skied Stowe today posted this comparison on social media...

First photo is today, still decently deep snowpack in the upper elevation trees too, coop has a 39" depth and even a little tree skiing is possible up high.

Second photo is last year in mid-May from the same area:

[ORH_wxman]

Pretty solid difference...we probably don;t want to underestimate the extreme cold March and the impact it had on the temperature of the snowpack deep underneath surface. This April was colder than last year too, but not by a lot. Probably the epic cold of March plus no big swing to warmth in April really has made a big difference.

 

It is interesting because didn't last year in March have similar amounts at the stake? This year just melted a lot slower.

[powderfreak]

Pretty solid difference...we probably don;t want to underestimate the extreme cold March and the impact it had on the temperature of the snowpack deep underneath surface. This April was colder than last year too, but not by a lot. Probably the epic cold of March plus no big swing to warmth in April really has made a big difference.

It is interesting because didn't last year in March have similar amounts at the stake? This year just melted a lot slower.

Yeah, the depths were nearly identical in March and actually a good portion of April at the coop. I hate the amount of missing data this year creating the odd graph, but you can see that with regards to natural depths, the real difference has been since the last week of April. I don't really remember May last year, but I remember it melting really fast...snowmaking and natural snow. This year it's in no hurry. Also note the greenery showing up in the lower elevations of the picture last year when there's none of that even emerging right now in this years picture.

I was thinking the record cold March had something to do with it but I'm not sure...maybe what you are saying about keeping the lower layers colder has something to do with it? Maybe it was just more ripe last year or something? But we went from similar depths to last year in mid April and now have above normal snowpack remaining when there was next to nothing but scattered piles last year.

[ORH_wxman]

Yeah, I do think the temperature of the lower snowpack is a factor...how much? I'm not sure how to quantify it, but the snow has to warm up before it melts. Otherwise you get very little melt except at the surface where the sun hits it.

 

Certainly the colder April temps in 2014 play a role as well...though they weren't THAT much colder. In fact, at the actual coop, Mt. Mansfield in 2013 was 0.3F colder than 2014...which is weird because most other sites are colder than 2013. So perhaps the April temperatures cannot explain it at all. (I looked up Mt Mansfield coop data in the middle of that paragraph so I let the whole thought play out, lol)

 

I think we just entered April with such an "unripe" snowpack. I mean you saw it, it was like skiing on mid-winter packed powder at the tail end of March...there was zero thawing at all until like the final couple days of the month. We also may have avoided torching rainstorms in April...I don't really recall any nasty ones. There were some colder rain and even snow events, but were there any warm rain events (like where we spike to 55/55)? Maybe there was...but I can't remember.

[Ginx snewx]

Perhaps the ice events and constant below zero cold created a glacier situation. Even low level Mts in WMa have man made spots left.

[Cold Miser]

Love seeing the May skiing pics.  Looks awesome that pic of Stowe from last May compared to this year is epic,

[powderfreak]

Yeah, I do think the temperature of the lower snowpack is a factor...how much? I'm not sure how to quantify it, but the snow has to warm up before it melts. Otherwise you get very little melt except at the surface where the sun hits it.

Certainly the colder April temps in 2014 play a role as well...though they weren't THAT much colder. In fact, at the actual coop, Mt. Mansfield in 2013 was 0.3F colder than 2014...which is weird because most other sites are colder than 2013. So perhaps the April temperatures cannot explain it at all. (I looked up Mt Mansfield coop data in the middle of that paragraph so I let the whole thought play out, lol)

I think we just entered April with such an "unripe" snowpack. I mean you saw it, it was like skiing on mid-winter packed powder at the tail end of March...there was zero thawing at all until like the final couple days of the month. We also may have avoided torching rainstorms in April...I don't really recall any nasty ones. There were some colder rain and even snow events, but were there any warm rain events (like where we spike to 55/55)? Maybe there was...but I can't remember.

I think your on to something with the lack of major, warm rain events in April...especially late April or early May when the pack seems venerable.

In fact, I can't believe this is just coming to me...the one main rain event in early May I can think of led to up to 1" of IP/ZR on the upper mountain. Skiers climbing up had to turn around due to too much solid ice on the snow surface above 2,700ft. I can't remember the exact date, but like 10 days ago? The MMNV1 anemometer was iced frozen solid for over 24 hours, too. One event like that will likely buy that snowpack like an extra week or more opposed to if that was a 55/55 rainer instead of 29/29 ZR. There's no percolating rain in the pack, just freezing everything solid and creating that candy coating protective layer hard enough to walk on. That's what's creating that bubble outward on the snow depth graph...it's like the melt hit pause for a week.

But there's definitely something to the colder lower layers to the pack, too. The crystals haven't loosened up to like a punchy wet granular but are instead still enjoying a strong winter bond. Takes a decent amount of energy to loosen that up...energy that last year was going into directly melting snow, not just loosening things up.

Anyway, always fun to have a reason to speculate about snow this time of year haha.

[gravitylover]

Early season temps, how the ground freezes and the mid season icy insulating layer has to have an effect.

[Ginx snewx]

Early season temps, how the ground freezes and the mid season icy insulating layer has to have an effect.

huge

[ORH_wxman]

I think your on to something with the lack of major, warm rain events in April...especially late April or early May when the pack seems venerable.

In fact, I can't believe this is just coming to me...the one main rain event in early May I can think of led to up to 1" of IP/ZR on the upper mountain. Skiers climbing up had to turn around due to too much solid ice on the snow surface above 2,700ft. I can't remember the exact date, but like 10 days ago? The MMNV1 anemometer was iced frozen solid for over 24 hours, too. One event like that will likely buy that snowpack like an extra week or more opposed to if that was a 55/55 rainer instead of 29/29 ZR. There's no percolating rain in the pack, just freezing everything solid and creating that candy coating protective layer hard enough to walk on. That's what's creating that bubble outward on the snow depth graph...it's like the melt hit pause for a week.

But there's definitely something to the colder lower layers to the pack, too. The crystals haven't loosened up to like a punchy wet granular but are instead still enjoying a strong winter bond. Takes a decent amount of energy to loosen that up...energy that last year was going into directly melting snow, not just loosening things up.

Anyway, always fun to have a reason to speculate about snow this time of year haha.

 

 

The lack of torching rainstorms and temperature of the deep layers of the snowpack are almost certainly connected too....as in how you said "there's no percolating rain in the pack". That warms up the ice crystals when that happens. Water is the best source of heat to the pack.

 

The extreme cold of March helped the pack get very cold...no rain in March either. Then in April there wasn't that much rain either which forced the pack to warm up much slower from an already colder-than-normal point to start start that month.

 

 

As you said, pretty fascinating how the same depths so late in the year can lead to far different retention longevity.

[tamarack]

Lack of warm rain, true, but also lack of real warmth.  Looking at the most recent 4 weeks (2nd half April thru yesterday) for both years at my place, we had 8 days in the 70s last year during that time and only 3 this year.  At the other end, highs in the 40s were exactly opposite, 8 this year and 3 last year.  Only 5 days, but 30F warmer, might melt some snow.  Don't have my records with daily comments at hand, but IIRC there was a lot more sun during those 4 weeks last year.

[ORH_wxman]

Lack of warm rain, true, but also lack of real warmth.  Looking at the most recent 4 weeks (2nd half April thru yesterday) for both years at my place, we had 8 days in the 70s last year during that time and only 3 this year.  At the other end, highs in the 40s were exactly opposite, 8 this year and 3 last year.  Only 5 days, but 30F warmer, might melt some snow.  Don't have my records with daily comments at hand, but IIRC there was a lot more sun during those 4 weeks last year.

 

 

Yeah I think there's a lot of factors...it is hard to quantify all of them. Mean temperature in April though seems to be a minor factor in this case...or none in the case of Mt. Mansfield where 2013 actually was 0.3F colder than 2014 in April.

 

 

But like you said, how we arrived at those numbers probably makes a significant difference. Avoid the warm rains...avoid the big torch days with higher min temps and lots of sun. Combine that with an excessively cold snow pack from the coldest March on record, and you have a recipe for much longer snow retention despite similar depths going into April.

 

I just think it is pretty cool that we can say "last year, we had almost the same snow depth at Mansfield going into April as this year. Then, we got the same mean April temperatures as last year. 2014 had way more snow at the end of April than last year." It initially sounds very puzzling, but when you dig into it a bit, it starts to make sense.

[HoarfrostHubb]

WaWa still skiable

[powderfreak]

Looks like the Eastern lift operated season comes to a close tomorrow as Killington announced it's last day. Kudos to sticking it out.

From K's FB page:

Two friends of mine skied Friday there and said it was pretty rugged conditions (they weren't expecting anything with 40s and wet) and left after two runs...light rain, fog, and rock hard sun cups. Classic spring skiing, it's either really really good or really really bad. There isn't much inbetween, the snow is either soft or it's hard and Friday it was hard. It's more the novelty of skiing this time of year than the quality though.

[Skivt2]

It was very very good Saturday and Sunday. Walking was required for the first 20-30 feet at the top by mid afternoon Saturday. It was still ski on ski off. If they opened next weekend it would be 50% walking including getting on and off. Some folks are hoping for a 'soft close' free day next weekend so they can make 200 days and say they made it to Memorial Day. Either way I am hiking.....up or down. Here are some pictures from this weekend......

[Ginx snewx]

Wildcat going big on snowmaking http://skiwildcat.com/press-room.html?key=5581

[ORH_wxman]

Wildcat going big on snowmaking http://skiwildcat.com/press-room.html?key=5581

 

 

They'll be able to ski into May there if they choose with big snow making.

 

They retain natural snow there extremely well...so extra manmade snow will just add to the base there.

[Ginx snewx]

They'll be able to ski into May there if they choose with big snow making.

They retain natural snow there extremely well...so extra manmade snow will just add to the base there.

My top 3 ski areas, SR large, Wildcat Medium, Berkshire East small. Wildcats views alone are worth it plus it's empty mid week and the price is right

[powderfreak]

They'll be able to ski into May there if they choose with big snow making.

They retain natural snow there extremely well...so extra manmade snow will just add to the base there.

They do retain snow great there...but pretty much any ski area that wanted to could operate into early May with snowmaking these days (though they could do it easier than others like you alluded to).

It's great that they are cutting back on diesel fuel consumption...that's going to save them and the environment. At Stowe they got rid of diesel fuel consumption altogether in the past three seasons of upgrades ($10 million). Electric is the way to go. I noticed Wildcat said they are putting in a lot of similar guns from HKD and Snow Logic. I'm a big fan of HKD guns, best in the business IMO.

Always nice to see a company that is committed to a place like Wildcat, and not letting the infrastructure decline. They need this stuff to stay competitive, especially during the rough periods in New England winters (and there are always those rough stretches except in maybe the top 10 percentile of winters).

[powderfreak]

My top 3 ski areas, SR large, Wildcat Medium, Berkshire East small. Wildcats views alone are worth it plus it's empty mid week and the price is right

Wildcat has the best views in New England hands down.

You ever get into the Green Mountain Spine powder orgy at anywhere from Sugarbush on northward?

[Ginx snewx]

Wildcat has the best views in New England hands down.

You ever get into the Green Mountain Spine powder orgy at anywhere from Sugarbush on northward?

oh yea in my 20s and 30s I was a greens ho

[Sugarloaf1989]

Saddleback also retains snow very well, frequently closing down for the season with 100% coverage. The problem is, it's remote and not a late season ski destination like Sugarloaf. Operating the high elevation Kennebago Quad also entails running two lifts, an expensive proposition for a remote ski area trying to attract late season skiers/riders.

[Hitman]

They do retain snow great there...but pretty much any ski area that wanted to could operate into early May with snowmaking these days (though they could do it easier than others like you alluded to).

It's great that they are cutting back on diesel fuel consumption...that's going to save them and the environment. At Stowe they got rid of diesel fuel consumption altogether in the past three seasons of upgrades ($10 million). Electric is the way to go. I noticed Wildcat said they are putting in a lot of similar guns from HKD and Snow Logic. I'm a big fan of HKD guns, best in the business IMO.

Always nice to see a company that is committed to a place like Wildcat, and not letting the infrastructure decline. They need this stuff to stay competitive, especially during the rough periods in New England winters (and there are always those rough stretches except in maybe the top 10 percentile of winters).

curious as to why you prefer HKD over the snologic guns.  I thought the latter are more efficient although they are bulkier and more difficult to move around.

[bobbutts]

There was a long thread about the problems with Wildcat's snowmaking system on Alpinezone this winter.

I gather they had cascading failures and couldn't make snow on the upper mountain for much of the season leading to a huge decline in visits as a result.  

 

Seeing as I have to drive an additional hour past Cannon to get there, I don't make it often, but do make a point of getting there every couple years.  Had a nice day this March when they had deep natural snowpack.  Love that you can get to everything from a fast quad, maybe the best 'pod' in NE.  Regardless of snowmaking, they still need lots of snow to fill in trails like this:

 

Polecat may be the best beginner run I've ever been on too.

[powderfreak]

curious as to why you prefer HKD over the snologic guns. I thought the latter are more efficient although they are bulkier and more difficult to move around.

Mostly anecdotal...I think the combination of initial investment cost, amount of snow produced, and still being relatively low energy, it's a solid snowgun manufacturer. They are an older company with better support, but whenever there's a snowlogic demo gun, it just doesn't seem to make nearly as much snow as the similar HKD counterpart in an overnight period or something. Snowlogic though I think produces higher quality snow at warmer temps (ie higher than 26F wet bulb).

[Hitman]

Mostly anecdotal...I think the combination of initial investment cost, amount of snow produced, and still being relatively low energy, it's a solid snowgun manufacturer. They are an older company with better support, but whenever there's a snowlogic demo gun, it just doesn't seem to make nearly as much snow as the similar HKD counterpart in an overnight period or something. Snowlogic though I think produces higher quality snow at warmer temps (ie higher than 26F wet bulb).

Sugarbush has about 50 of the snologic guns.  My understanding (From what I am told) is that they are significantly more efficient (something like 5cfm of air versus 100 cfm) than the HKDs.  But people complain about the quality of the snow they produce and their efficacy at higher temperatures.  I dont claim to be an expert on snowmaking but my observation is that the snow they make is silky smooth.  When the temps are right they are almost completely silent.

[powderfreak]

Sugarbush has about 50 of the snologic guns. My understanding (From what I am told) is that they are significantly more efficient (something like 5cfm of air versus 100 cfm) than the HKDs. But people complain about the quality of the snow they produce and their efficacy at higher temperatures. I dont claim to be an expert on snowmaking but my observation is that the snow they make is silky smooth. When the temps are right they are almost completely silent.

Didn't Sugarbush also but like 75-100 of the HKDs?

The whole quality thing is hard to define because any gun can throw slop if it's being operated wrong, or not tended too when temps are rising or something. If used right, most of the guns these days will produce silky snow 95% of the time.

I just feel the HKDs make a lot of snow in a short period of time, even if on paper they are supposed to throw similar amounts of water. The snowlogics may do it really efficiently, but the HKDs seem to produce an impressive amount of snow comparatively during like an overnight of snowmaking. It may be something where HKDs are good for getting terrain open early in the season where you have short windows that need to throw some deep acre feet numbers, and then use the snowlogics for cheaper resurfacing throughout the season, haha. Those things are a pain to move around though, might as well get a fan gun on wheels if you are aren't doing fixed towers but looking for something mobile in the base area.

[HoarfrostHubb]

I saw a bumper sticker on a truck today that read "honk if you make snow"