The 2013-2014 Ski Season Thread

[N. OF PIKE]

For those that dont ski, they may have a hard time distinguishing that ya , the mtn isn't goin bankrupt and the conditions will not be "all time bad" but the bottom line is there is damage and skiing wont be as enjoyable as it was earlier.

November was probably the month of best ski conditions at stowe And they werent open. (Not Saying it would have made them $, just pointing out the irony o having best conditions in novie .

[ORH_wxman]

For those that dont ski, they may have a hard time distinguishing that ya , the mtn isn't goin bankrupt and the conditions will not be "all time bad" but the bottom line is there is damage and skiing wont be as enjoyable as it was earlier.

November was probably the month of best ski conditions at stowe And they werent open. (Not Saying it would have made them $, just pointing out the irony o having best conditions in novie .

 

 

Isn't that stating beyond the obvious though when we have a cutter?

 

Of course it won't be as good as it was before the cutter, but its far from a disaster. I skied a decent amount in 2007 and I can tell you what disaster looks like. It doesn't look like January 2014.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

Isn't that stating beyond the obvious though when we have a cutter?

 

Of course it won't be as good as it was before the cutter, but its far from a disaster. I skied a decent amount in 2007 and I can tell you what disaster looks like. It doesn't look like January 2014.

 

Financial disaster no, but you've got the most optimistic ski poster aside of MRG down in the dumps for a reason.  I ski all the time and like Coventry...I'll wait until Feb or Mar when things get much better. No net loss to the mountain I'll ski just as much just later so yes you're technically right. 

 

But good marketing and slant sticking aside it's worse than the reports give credit.  They don't have much leeway and some of the trails open are sketchy at best.  I'm not sure I can describe it but the conditions prior to the snowfall were pretty awful.  It was difficult to move around the mountain or go to and from the condo because there's a 1/2" thick sheet of ice everywhere.   I think that heavy ice and sleet storm did more harm than these torches it leaves an unappealing base.

 

The resorts got off to an epic start (those that make snow), but January may be a dud.

[Sugarloaf1989]

It's snowing in the Southern Greens right now as per the webcams at Mount Snow, hopefully it ads up to more than DOC.

[Sugarloaf1989]

Financial disaster no, but you've got the most optimistic ski poster aside of MRG down in the dumps for a reason.  I ski all the time and like Coventry...I'll wait until Feb or Mar when things get much better. No net loss to the mountain I'll ski just as much just later so yes you're technically right. 

 

But good marketing and slant sticking aside it's worse than the reports give credit.  They don't have much leeway and some of the trails open are sketchy at best.  I'm not sure I can describe it but the conditions prior to the snowfall were pretty awful.  It was difficult to move around the mountain or go to and from the condo because there's a 1/2" thick sheet of ice everywhere.   I think that heavy ice and sleet storm did more harm than these torches it leaves an unappealing base.

 

The resorts got off to an epic start (those that make snow), but January may be a dud.

 

I'm looking to ski Sugarloaf/Saddleback sometime in March/ April for a long four day weekend, if the snow conditions allow. Magic will probably be 100% opened up if things go right with snowfall by this time next month. For the remainder of the ski season, I plan 3-4 days there this year.

[Skivt2]

I disagree with those saying this is not that bad. I saw someone say the base will be fine. What base? So many people I know including me damaged equipment this past week skiing on the limited base on natural snow trails and now that is gone. When only snowmaking trails are covered, we are in trouble. Looking at warm and wet followed by cold and dry for the next 10 days is not good. January is important. To make up for this and have a good season we need a lot of snow soon. Base building time on natural snow trails is now.

[ono]

I disagree with those saying this is not that bad. I saw someone say the base will be fine. What base? So many people I know including me damaged equipment this past week skiing on the limited base on natural snow trails and now that is gone. When only snowmaking trails are covered, we are in trouble. Looking at warm and wet followed by cold and dry for the next 10 days is not good. January is important. To make up for this and have a good season we need a lot of snow soon. Base building time on natural snow trails is now.

 

There's a base in the mountains above 2000ft.  Down below is especially rough, but ~6-10" of bulletproof is a base.   Plus, high traffic in-bounds glades always wear thin.  IMHO, it's too early to be hopping in the woods, generally- especially with equipment you care about.  Then again, it all depends on where you ski- if it's Killington and points south- well, that's a different story than Sugarbush and points north, generally.  

 

With that lake effect band cranking,  perhaps somewhere between Mount Snow and Sugarbush/MRG could pick up some nice fluff the next few days with a meandering band makes its way east.

[N. OF PIKE]

Skier's against non-skiers.

Mtn will be "fine" ...yes it will be operating and not as bad as the worst ever. Joy to the world.

My main gripe is the mtn i frequent due to numerous factors is cheap wrt snow making and conditions there were not even "good" before the cutter.

[bobbutts]

Places like Okemo, Loon, Sunday River, etc where the vast majority of the terrain is snowmaking and groomed have much less variation, there's plenty of snow, just goes from Packed powder to hardpack/granular until resurfacing.  

It's a different story for non-groomed/man-made terrain.

[ono]

Skier's against non-skiers.

Mtn will be "fine" ...yes it will be operating and not as bad as the worst ever. Joy to the world.

My main gripe is the mtn i frequent due to numerous factors is cheap wrt snow making and conditions there were not even "good" before the cutter.

Magic?

[Brewbeer]

Lot of bare ground showing at Mad River Glen as per today's video report.

[N. OF PIKE]

Magic?

Attitash

[N. OF PIKE]

Lot of bare ground showing at Mad River Glen as per today's video report.

This place meltsdown annually it seems or 3 of last 4 years. Adds a whole new meaning to "ski it if you can"

[ORH_wxman]

Skier's against non-skiers.

Mtn will be "fine" ...yes it will be operating and not as bad as the worst ever. Joy to the world.

My main gripe is the mtn i frequent due to numerous factors is cheap wrt snow making and conditions there were not even "good" before the cutter.

 

 

Its East Coast skiing...there's going to be ice. It happens.

 

I don't think any of us were claiming the skiing was actually good. Just that its not a disaster which is what some of the rhetoric sounded like. Perhaps I haven't been spoiled as much by the innovations and advancements in snow making and mountain grooming since I have stopped being the ski junkey I used to be from like age 10-25...but I recall tons of ice most times I went up north to Sugarbush, Killington, and Waterville Valley in December and early January...usually it was lessened by February school vacation which almost always had the best skiing..sans a year or two when a torch or cutter preceded it and I enjoyed a big snowstorm in January instead. Granted, I skiied through some ugly winters in the 1990s too...maybe the run of generally good snowpack winters in NNE ski resorts post-2006-2007 has made better-than-climo conditions seem like the norm.

 

I was up at Jay Peak in January 2007 and February 2007...the former trip gave me a taste of what truly awful skiing is. It was quite the flip when I returned 3 weeks later.

[Brewbeer]

This place meltsdown annually it seems or 3 of last 4 years. Adds a whole new meaning to "ski it if you can"

It should be "Ski it when you can".

[Clinch Leatherwood]

There's a base in the mountains above 2000ft.  Down below is especially rough, but ~6-10" of bulletproof is a base.   Plus, high traffic in-bounds glades always wear thin.  IMHO, it's too early to be hopping in the woods, generally- especially with equipment you care about.  Then again, it all depends on where you ski- if it's Killington and points south- well, that's a different story than Sugarbush and points north, generally.  

 

With that lake effect band cranking,  perhaps somewhere between Mount Snow and Sugarbush/MRG could pick up some nice fluff the next few days with a meandering band makes its way east.

 

Yeah but we're talking about NNE as a whole.  Before the snowstorm a week ago Sunday there was about 2" of "base" at the top of the lifts at SR.  Most of the natural trails were bare patches.  Mid elevations had maybe 1-3" under the lifts.  Then 8-10" of powder fell.   That's been compressed down to sh** now from what I'm hearing and getting wet and semi-torched.    They'll be back to scattered patches and almost no natural base.

 

This is base building time as others have said.  Right now its probably 95% man-made and that's mixed with a ton of sleet and ice.  They do need snow or at the very least they need these wet torches to stop.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

Its East Coast skiing...there's going to be ice. It happens.

 

I don't think any of us were claiming the skiing was actually good. Just that its not a disaster which is what some of the rhetoric sounded like. Perhaps I haven't been spoiled as much by the innovations and advancements in snow making and mountain grooming since I have stopped being the ski junkey I used to be from like age 10-25...but I recall tons of ice most times I went up north to Sugarbush, Killington, and Waterville Valley in December and early January...usually it was lessened by February school vacation which almost always had the best skiing..sans a year or two when a torch or cutter preceded it and I enjoyed a big snowstorm in January instead. Granted, I skiied through some ugly winters in the 1990s too...maybe the run of generally good snowpack winters in NNE ski resorts post-2006-2007 has made better-than-climo conditions seem like the norm.

 

I was up at Jay Peak in January 2007 and February 2007...the former trip gave me a taste of what truly awful skiing is. It was quite the flip when I returned 3 weeks later.

 

If this was 6 years ago and 6 years ago snowmaking levels most of these places would be barely open Will.  If this was even 4 years ago a place like SR might have 20 trails open.  There's almost no natural snow, there is no "base" beyond what they've shot out at night.

 

That's true across much of NH and Maine and as PF noted VT too.  Ice is one thing (and in a good year WValley is a sheet of ice which is why I haven't been back in a couple years)....but they're taking repeated hits which is tough all over.  Let's hope that changes when Leon regains his composure.

[eyewall]

Bolton Valley got killed as they are now down to 3 mid-mountain only trails after getting up to 29 before the cutter.

[radarman]

It should be "Ski it when you can".

 

lol, pretty true.  But even when it's great most don't.

 

One more thing... When I was at Sunapee, I was one of the few people in the woods which were fantastic, but of course I was still taking a few dings here and there.  Same with B'East on Friday after the fluff.   If folks like to ski in the natural, they have to use rock skis before mid Feb or so, or at least not get too attached to the skis they have.  People were yelling "core shot!" at me as I was ripping up Lift Line at the Beast, shin deep in fluff.  I was chuckling yelling back, "yeah you definitely shouldn't come in here with those fancy boards homie".

[Clinch Leatherwood]

College Week begins today, usually a zoo.  Main lift is closed but the lift to the right is open...mountain is empty. 

 

It hurts.

 

 

[ORH_wxman]

If this was 6 years ago and 6 years ago snowmaking levels most of these places would be barely open Will.  If this was even 4 years ago a place like SR might have 20 trails open.  There's almost no natural snow, there is no "base" beyond what they've shot out at night.

 

That's true across much of NH and Maine and as PF noted VT too.  Ice is one thing (and in a good year WValley is a sheet of ice which is why I haven't been back in a couple years)....but they're taking repeated hits which is tough all over.  Let's hope that changes when Leon regains his composure.

 

 

I highly doubt that. I was skiing up there in '06 and '07 when natural snow was harder to come by than a White Christmas in Tolland this year.

 

 

Certainly the lower down resorts that rely on natural snow aren't liking this, I never disagreed on that point...but any snow making mountain will make through okay...esp with the cold the next few days to repair the conditions on the trails. Complaining about icy trails in early January on the east coast is like us complaining we don't get good severe wx in SNE.

[ono]

Yeah but we're talking about NNE as a whole.  Before the snowstorm a week ago Sunday there was about 2" of "base" at the top of the lifts at SR.  Most of the natural trails were bare patches.  Mid elevations had maybe 1-3" under the lifts.  Then 8-10" of powder fell.   That's been compressed down to sh** now from what I'm hearing and getting wet and semi-torched.    They'll be back to scattered patches and almost no natural base.

 

This is base building time as others have said.  Right now its probably 95% man-made and that's mixed with a ton of sleet and ice.  They do need snow or at the very least they need these wet torches to stop.

 

isn't that Sunday River's double edge sword- they retain snow (generally) very well, but don't get much in general?  After visiting there in the fall, it seemed a bit odd for a resort to be in the relative foothills of the White Mountains as I drove down from the Whites to Bethel.  SR has that massive snowmaking, as nature doesn't do a whole lot of favors in that neck of the woods.  I guess SR never really struck me as a location where relying on natural snow/base was a good idea- it seems like Mount Snow, VT in a lot of ways, just with better snow retention.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

I highly doubt that. I was skiing up there in '06 and '07 when natural snow was harder to come by than a White Christmas in Tolland this year.

 

 

Certainly the lower down resorts that rely on natural snow aren't liking this, I never disagreed on that point...but any snow making mountain will make through okay...esp with the cold the next few days to repair the conditions on the trails. Complaining about icy trails in early January on the east coast is like us complaining we don't get good severe wx in SNE.

 

It's massively different than even a few years ago Will.  You're out of the loop and I think PF would back me up on this.  The arms race to put snowguns on the mountains is what's keeping places like Kilington and SR going at the levels they're going right now.  5 years ago 30 trails was a lot for NYE, now it's 50-60 as they've expanded their snowmaking with those efficient tower guns on so many trails.  All they need is cold.  Look at MRG a mountain notorious for pretty good natural conditions...they're barely open again this year heading into mid January.  SR was up to almost 80 trails almost entirely on manmade before the ice storm.  They dropped back to 50 after the ice, then got up to 70-80 before the fluff which pushed them to a high of about 111 trails.  Now back down to 83 as that powder on the more natural trails is gone.

 

Snowmaking is the name of the game as Ono notes and a lot of resorts have spent massive amounts of money on their infrastructure.

[Clinch Leatherwood]

isn't that Sunday River's double edge sword- they retain snow (generally) very well, but don't get much in general?  After visiting there in the fall, it seemed a bit odd for a resort to be in the relative foothills of the White Mountains as I drove down from the Whites to Bethel.  SR has that massive snowmaking, as nature doesn't do a whole lot of favors in that neck of the woods.  I guess SR never really struck me as a location where relying on natural snow/base was a good idea- it seems like Mount Snow, VT in a lot of ways, just with better snow retention.

 

They do pretty well normally.  Like you said they probably average 20 or 30" a month (advertise 30 but it's probably 20-25) but maintain it.  This year...not so much it's getting beat up in between and they're probably averaging 10-15 a month right now.  There is probably no more base now vs a week or two ago.

[bobbutts]

Disagree with Mr. Wolf about this season being a problem 5 years ago.  The extra capacity helps, but it's not that big a diff.  Places would have similar trail counts and surfaces.

[ORH_wxman]

It's massively different than even a few years ago Will.  You're out of the loop and I think PF would back me up on this.  The arms race to put snowguns on the mountains is what's keeping places like Kilington and SR going at the levels they're going right now.  5 years ago 30 trails was a lot for NYE, now it's 50-60 as they've expanded their snowmaking with those efficient tower guns on so many trails.  All they need is cold.  Look at MRG a mountain notorious for pretty good natural conditions...they're barely open again this year heading into mid January.  SR was up to almost 80 trails almost entirely on manmade before the ice storm.  They dropped back to 50 after the ice, then got up to 70-80 before the fluff which pushed them to a high of about 111 trails.  Now back down to 83 as that powder on the more natural trails is gone.

 

Snowmaking is the name of the game as Ono notes and a lot of resorts have spent massive amounts of money on their infrastructure.

 

 

It sounds like you are agreeing with me that snowmaking mountains are making out ok.

[Hitman]

It's massively different than even a few years ago Will.  You're out of the loop and I think PF would back me up on this.  The arms race to put snowguns on the mountains is what's keeping places like Kilington and SR going at the levels they're going right now.  5 years ago 30 trails was a lot for NYE, now it's 50-60 as they've expanded their snowmaking with those efficient tower guns on so many trails.  All they need is cold.  Look at MRG a mountain notorious for pretty good natural conditions...they're barely open again this year heading into mid January.  SR was up to almost 80 trails almost entirely on manmade before the ice storm.  They dropped back to 50 after the ice, then got up to 70-80 before the fluff which pushed them to a high of about 111 trails.  Now back down to 83 as that powder on the more natural trails is gone.

 

Snowmaking is the name of the game as Ono notes and a lot of resorts have spent massive amounts of money on their infrastructure.

this is true, but the snow making trails are open and todays unpleasantness wont change that.  It is the natural snow trails and off piste where we are really lacking.  But this happens every winter.  No less of a bummer

[Clinch Leatherwood]

It sounds like you are agreeing with me that snowmaking mountains are making out ok.

In the last 5-7 years they've spent tens of millions on snow making. Without it they'd have a fraction of the trails that are open now. Many resorts will head into MLK with almost no natural base will....that's up there with some of the worst years.

[Brewbeer]

The lack of natural snow and the torches that destroy it are a drag. I generally don't ski until the woods are open.

[ORH_wxman]

In the last 5-7 years they've spent tens of millions on snow making. Without it they'd have a fraction of the trails that are open now. Many resorts will head into MLK with almost no natural base will....that's up there with some of the worst years.

 

 

We'll agree to disagree on this part.

 

Like I said before, I've been up there when there was truly almost no natural snow, this isn't comparable. I mean, I get that the ice can suck and nobody likes a cutter, but the snow depths aren't even below average where Sunday River is.

 

 

 

 

 

VT has been hit harder for sure, but saying its up there with the worst years is hyperbole, IMHO. It is January 6th, not February 6th.