bkviking Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 My point was mainly to say lets hear the full story first. He was there, he said they helped and then they got evac'd. It paints an unfair picture to say he rolled out when others may have needed it. I'm also not trying to say he was a hero. They could have been ordered out for all we know Good point. News reporters go to disasters and civil wars and revolutions and dictatorial regimes. Do we look at what they do through the prism of TV Ratings and thus money only? Or do we demand it as part of a free press obliged to open us up to the world? Somehow I doubt we collectively moralize and judge the media in the way judgements are being passed on Josh and crew. Next time someone should tell Anderson Cooper he should've skipped swimming with Nile crocodiles so the production expense for that segment could've helped someone stricken by drought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jims Videos Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Good point. News reporters go to disasters and civil wars and revolutions and dictatorial regimes. Do we look at what they do through the prism of TV Ratings and thus money only? Or do we demand it as part of a free press obliged to open us up to the world? Somehow I doubt we collectively moralize and judge the media in the way judgements are being passed on Josh and crew. Next time someone should tell Anderson Cooper he should've skipped swimming with Nile crocodiles so the production expense for that segment could've helped someone stricken by drought. Many times we are the only eyes and voices of what's taking place inside a disaster zone, speaking first hand of my experience reporting live during Irene from point pleasant nj and the NEPA tropical storm lee flood of 2011. People far away rely on us. I had a solider in Afghanistan watching my live coverage of his moms home under water in west Pittston. We go there to do a job and that's what josh and them also did. There is a rush, it's only human nature to get that thrill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Good point. News reporters go to disasters and civil wars and revolutions and dictatorial regimes. Do we look at what they do through the prism of TV Ratings and thus money only? Or do we demand it as part of a free press obliged to open us up to the world? Somehow I doubt we collectively moralize and judge the media in the way judgements are being passed on Josh and crew. Next time someone should tell Anderson Cooper he should've skipped swimming with Nile crocodiles so the production expense for that segment could've helped someone stricken by drought. It's a difference in opinion. There's no collective moral judgment- you can read post after post in this thread in full support of their decisions. And as for the news media, yes, sometimes viewers do react negatively to those segments when a reporter is *taped* rescuing something/somebody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyewall Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 None of us know the circumstances of their evacuation, or how they managed to be airlifted out of there so quickly. Either way inequality certainly does rear its ugly head in catastrophic situations such as this, there is no denying that. Just as in normal life, the wealthy will have the best chances for survival, and they will enjoy preferential treatment. The residents of Tacloban, and many locations in the central Philippines, will endure a brutal aftermath for a long time to come. That is a cruel reality, and there is no question the thought of all of this can raise a high level of emotion and anger. For now I am thankful Josh and the others are safe, and that they were able to help some people in their hotel, and I just hope global relief assets get there as quick as possible. On the science and footage side of things I hope they are able to retrieve the lost video from that one camera, and I hope they got some meaningful observations recorded. They did not get into the eye, so their lowest pressure will be well above the minimum central reading, but their data may aid in extrapolation somehow. It remains unclear of anything was obtained from where the eye passed overhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I'm very glad they are OK. I've lurked and followed Josh's chases for years. I don't know how anyone can think they were being "selfish" after watching that video. There are people alive today who would not be alive except for the fact that Josh, James & Mark were in Tacloban. And, Tullioz, thank you for sharing your experiences. Please post any information you have for where we can donate to relief efforts. The Philippines has really taken it on the chin this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieOber Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I could care less what josh and his crew do in regards to their personal life, so I am no hater. What bothers me is the way they and other storm chasers go into a community, then get extracted at the first opportunity they get. I know without doubt they got preferential treatment because I have experienced it first hand on many occasions since I have lived here. That being said, there are people who need help on the ground right now. Yes, it is great that they helped those in the hotel reach safety in their time of peril, But did they have a choice? No decent human can sit and watch as people are fighting for their lives. But now that the chaos is over why not help those who are still trapped? Help search for those missing? Why not just evacuate Mark and the others stay behind and assist? They are able bodied men and there is much they could do to contribute in helping those less fortunate than themselves. I hope they will contribute to the relief efforts as I mentioned earlier and I guess we need to just wait and hear their side before criticizing too much. Maybe that is their intention, who knows? First off, fantastic news that Josh is okay, my wife and I love the guy and we are so relieved. We are also sorry his chase partner got injured and that they went through this. That said... You are someone who has been on the ground in the aftermath of these events and has not only seen the human cost but also has contributed to alleviating the suffering, so it's mind-boggling to me that your opinion is being dismissed. But I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olafminesaw Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I think that we should be more focused on how to better inform and evacuate poor areas of the country in the future instead of spending our time arguing about what an American storm chaser should do with his life. We are so focused on those close to us that we forget that the locals have families and lives of their own. Giving your life for science is far better a fate in my opinion then having your livelihood destroyed and people you know dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAD_Wedge_NC Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I support his decision. If he and his team are responsible for saving even one life that would have been lost, then his trip was worth the price they will pay emotionally. I say good job guys! You provided help to folks that might have drowned if it were not for your assistance in the time of crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jims Videos Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I support his decision. If he and his team are responsible for saving even one life that would have been lost, then his trip was worth the price they will pay emotionally. I say good job guys! You provided help to folks that might have drowned if it were not for your assistance in the time of crisis. ^ this! You can't put a price on the value of one life saved. You also can't put a price on what will hopefully be historic data and video in such extreme conditions that will lead to better forecasting and government awareness of what's coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyblizz44 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 First off, fantastic news that Josh is okay, my wife and I love the guy and we are so relieved. We are also sorry his chase partner got injured and that they went through this. That said... You are someone who has been on the ground in the aftermath of these events and has not only seen the human cost but also has contributed to alleviating the suffering, so it's mind-boggling to me that your opinion is being dismissed. But I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. I Concur 100% with Jamie. Though IM n extreme junkie myself, I have a family and THEY , not my extreme hobby, are my 1st priority. Having said this lets leave that part of the equation out of discussion here IMHO. two points of focus : there is humn disaster here & It my turn out to be among the highest casuality rate in modern history4 aa tropical cyclone. so lets keep things in perspective & also try to gather all info about what occurred metreoligcally - as well all know that knowledge is the end game as it is the propeller to saving lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkman Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I'm so glad those guys are ok and wish we could say the same for lots of other people there. One thing I'll add to this discussion is that video and still photos are vitally important for causing people to be emotionally moved to donate to the relief efforts. It may seem insensitive, but a wire report with a death toll doesn't elicit the same response as videos from the scene, and the people of this region are going to need many millions of dollars in donations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNash Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Haters gonna hate. Glad they are ok. This is the most fatuous comment I can imagine. I actually really admire these guys for basically hand placing meteorological instruments in front of a storm of this magnitudes and taking this hit. Yes, there seems to be a bit of "personality" or egoism from chasers, because they're risk takers, and you accept it because what they provide is so valuable and unique (especially now). Had someone used the usual "I hate chasers" arguments, you might have been justified by your dismissal. But I thought that was an honest and frank discussion of the real aftereffects of a storm such as this from someone who has real world knowledge of the issue. Chasers who want to work at this scale might do well to pay heed and include accounting for these contingencies in their risk management. Josh is a smart guy-- he learns and adapts-- but that needed to be said for the community here without being mocked by a flippant dismissal. The second part of your statement, though, I am in totally agreement with! I have been worried about those boys. I'm so glad they're ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutts Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I feel like Josh/team is well intentioned, and that goes a long way. That said, it's a serious situation with critical decisions, so reasonable criticism is fair and potentially constructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye_wx Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 As far as I'm concerned, we need more experienced/professional chasers with cameras and scientific instruments setting up shop in places like Tacloban and Guiuan, not fewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNash Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 As far as I'm concerned, we need more experienced/professional chasers with cameras and scientific instruments setting up shop in places like Tacloban and Guiuan, not fewer. I don't object to that in theory, but risk management and post-storm planning is a huge unknown. Would they all get to ride out on the first C130? Let's not be naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Global_Warmer Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I could care less what josh and his crew do in regards to their personal life, so I am no hater. What bothers me is the way they and other storm chasers go into a community, then get extracted at the first opportunity they get. I know without doubt they got preferential treatment because I have experienced it first hand on many occasions since I have lived here. That being said, there are people who need help on the ground right now. Yes, it is great that they helped those in the hotel reach safety in their time of peril, But did they have a choice? No decent human can sit and watch as people are fighting for their lives. But now that the chaos is over why not help those who are still trapped? Help search for those missing? Why not just evacuate Mark and the others stay behind and assist? They are able bodied men and there is much they could do to contribute in helping those less fortunate than themselves. I hope they will contribute to the relief efforts as I mentioned earlier and I guess we need to just wait and hear their side before criticizing too much. Maybe that is their intention, who knows? I 1000 percent agree. So do a lot of others. But are afraid to say it out of backlash. But you're talking to other spoiled entitled Americans who don't see it like you Man. They are chasing an addictive high. How many addicts help others? These guys require their lives to be in immediate danger of ending to get their high. Doesn't that already tell you enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cory Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 on the C-130, mark with injured leg For "taking resources away from people who need help", that plane sure looks empty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I am just absolutely shocked at the people being critical of the iCyclone guys right now. In no way shape or form do you or anyone here know the full story of Tacloban yet so there is no right to criticize their decision to leave. Its probably an extremely desparate situation in that town right now. Food water and medicine are probably running low. How much help realistically would Josh and his team been? Also, one could expect foreign looking men to be targets of potential robbery as things get more dire. I bet it's really easy to sit down at your computer while you drink your latte and claim you would stay and help. However, seeing the terrifying landfall and damage from a cat 4/5 landfall first hand might lead you to want to get out of town first opportunity also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocoAko Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I am just absolutely shocked at the people being critical of the iCyclone guys right now. In no way shape or form do you or anyone here know the full story of Tacloban yet so there is no right to criticize their decision to leave. Its probably an extremely desparate situation in that town right now. Food water and medicine are probably running low. How much help realistically would Josh and his team been? Also, one could expect foreign looking men to be targets of potential robbery as things get more dire. I bet it's really easy to sit down at your computer while you drink your latte and claim you would stay and help. However, seeing the terrifying landfall and damage from a cat 4/5 landfall first hand might lead you to want to get out of town first opportunity also. I'm not sure I've actually seen anyone do the bolded, but okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cory Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I 1000 percent agree. So do a lot of others. But are afraid to say it out of backlash. But you're talking to other spoiled entitled Americans who don't see it like you Man. They are chasing an addictive high. How many addicts help others? These guys require their lives to be in immediate danger of ending to get their high. Doesn't that already tell you enough? Thanks, Reverend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncforecaster89 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 It's a nice thought, but somewhat naive for us to believe that all of us storm chasers (yes, I'm including myself) are somehow invaluable or overly important-we aren't. When we intercept these storms, there are typically reporters in the near vicinity doing the exact same thing. The same was the case here, as well. There has been countless photos and video coming out of the area, aside from what the chasers captured. Yes, we make an asserted effort to record meteorological obs in the process, but it would be disingenuous for me (or anyone else) to suggest that our well meaning efforts are equal to those who had no choice but to endure such calamity. With this in mind, I feel we should be more sympathetic to the comments made by Tulliox, without the need to try to rationalize and justify why it's such a great idea for even more of us chasers to put ourselves in harms way, unnecessarily. If we choose to chase, we need to be accountable for our actions and show respect for the valid arguments made by those who don't share the same passion for these scientific and journalistic endeavors we undertake. Like Tulliox stated, he made a fair observation that chasers do typically get out of the area relatively quickly, rather than staying behind a reasonable amount of time to offer our assistance when it's truly needed most. Edit: I want to qualify these comments by stating that I too would've intercepted this storm if I didn't have other personal obligations. So, I'm not trying to criticize Josh and company for making the chase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I can only assume the gov wants to get non locals out as a matter of course regardless of any specifics of why they are there. If the other option is fighting for food and dying from a tropical disease there's really only one good solution. There are good arguments pro and con. Speed of response is critical so getting a full picture as fast as possible certainly helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackH Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I 1000 percent agree. So do a lot of others. But are afraid to say it out of backlash. But you're talking to other spoiled entitled Americans who don't see it like you Man. They are chasing an addictive high. How many addicts help others? These guys require their lives to be in immediate danger of ending to get their high. Doesn't that already tell you enough? If you're inferring that these "addicts" weren't helping locals, you are an idiot. I am also addicted to extreme weather and have always called off chases when people need help first. I personally do not think anyone has any right to criticize personal decisions of individuals if they aren't impeding the relief effort. I find it very hard to believe these guys impeded any relief effort and knowing a bit about their character, they would not be involved in any actions impeding relief. It is obvious from the little we know already that they were helping whoever they could and saved lives that may not have been saved if they didn't make the trip. There is a very good chance that they were also forced to be flighted out. No one can say these guys made a mistake except for them... That's no ones right except for theirs. You can be critical or unapproving but to tell them they made a mistake is not fair and it's arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNash Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I don't have a dog in this fight one way or another, but can another thread be made so this one isn't full of page after page of arguing over ethics please? Why, so this discussion can be marginalized and people can persist in their mythology and ignore any actual discussion of chasing outcomes? No thanks, leave it right here. Sorry if they can't handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apm Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I 1000 percent agree. So do a lot of others. But are afraid to say it out of backlash. But you're talking to other spoiled entitled Americans who don't see it like you Man. They are chasing an addictive high. How many addicts help others? These guys require their lives to be in immediate danger of ending to get their high. Doesn't that already tell you enough? I am certain their presence there has been and will provide a significant net positive benefit for all impacted. The resulting increased quick information flow and publicity will increase world wide public awareness and result in additional resources raised for rescue and recovery. How many of us would be aware of the extent of the calamity and feeling vested (and now willing to donate) in the sufferings of the impacted people if it weren't for these guys (and other "chase" media crews) on site? Or really care? Main stream media is still only estimating "over hundred" dead, while James and others have indicated it could be in the five figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNash Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I hope some people in this thread will soon be on a plane to go help the victims. Please elaborate on how they can help. Do you think they have search and rescue expertise that is going unused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornadotony Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Please elaborate on how they can help. Do you think they have search and rescue expertise that is going unused? No, but they sure do know how to make judgements about who to rescue first and who should be left behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNash Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 No, but they sure do know how to make judgements about who to rescue first and who should be left behind.The accusation of hypocrisy was totally misplaced. There is a valid ethical issue in ultra extreme storm chasing that this situation has demonstrated that no number of chaser cliches is going to stifle.And let me make it clear-- I think experienced chasers should play an important role, but I think they probably need to be more functional than thrill seekers with met gear and cameras if they're going to fly into a situation like this. Training in disaster triage would have made them a real asset on the ground and not liabilities to the real rescue effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2O Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Did anyone here, who is now trying to raise the issue of Josh causing a diversion of resources, tell him of this prior to his going? Or did many here sit idly by, watch, wait and track this storm and only when reports of how bad it was then come out to say chasers shouldn't be there? It might cause some uncomfortable thoughts on your own behaviors. It isn't like other clowns who we see during hurricanes that go to the beach and ride waves naked in front of cameras. Josh has his own legit reasons for going and shares his findings with the scientific community. There were many here wanting better data on it as the storm approached and wishing there were better wx networks in that part of the world. We all knew it would not be good news coming out of there but as someone else said, having some there who can relay how bad it is might speed up the response time of not only the Philippines but also the world as far as donations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 To me, the ethical question comes down to this: Should you go on a chase where's there a likelihood that you would need to be rescued/evacuated by outside assistance after the storm is over? I have an opinion. What do the rest of you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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