baroclinic_instability Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 True. I'm sure the GFS is overdoing moisture as always, but I also don't think we'll need 72+ to go gangbusters. Sure, CAPE and LCLs might verify somewhat lower and higher, respectively, than some of the current weather porn. But if the GFS shear profiles verify and storms initiate across OK and S KS, it won't matter much. Whether the GFS is even close on the synoptic evolution is another story altogether, unfortunately. FWIW, the 12z ECMWF took a small but notable shift west/slower with the upper trof. At the surface it even shows some signs of late backing of the low level flow in the vicinity of the dryline, albeit the dryline/warm sector is not nearly as broad as the GFS. ECMWF doesn't initiate much along it, but one would have to assume capping would not be a problem given the positioning of the upper low....the only slight negative would be synoptic scale forcing being displaced from the potential area of CI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 This was the first violent tornado in TX since the 1999 Loyal Valley F4, and according to David, the first one in FWD's CWA since the Lancaster F4 in 1994. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye05 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 This was the first violent tornado in TX since the 1999 Loyal Valley F4, and according to David, the first one in FWD's CWA since the Lancaster F4 in 1994. Not to open a can of worms, but Westminster 2006 was almost surely in the "violent" category (though not officially). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Just going by official numbers here, although yes that tornado produced damage consistent with an F4 at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormchaser11 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 The Granbury TX Tornado was an EF4 tornado with winds of 200mph and killed 6 and dozens were injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensō Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I know it's already been covered, but just wanted to add to the EF4/5 discussion. If you look at the "swept clean" photos, at least the ones I've seen, they fail the EF5 test. Most of the anchoring appears to have been straight nails, and the few anchor bolts that were present were very widely spaced. That's solid construction and definitely warrants an EF4, if not high-end EF4, but it isn't the "superior construction" needed for EF5. Also, although those homes were swept clean, most of the debris remained in piles not far from the house. And as others have said, there has yet to be any sign of other EF5 hallmarks such as ground/pavement scouring, extreme tree damage (not EF5 by itself, but can lend credence to such a rating) or debarked/uprooted low-lying shrubs. It's possible they'll find such evidence, but IMO not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Lots of graduation ceremonies this weekend. I noticed Wichita mentioned it in their AFD this afternoon, and I know Joplin's is Sunday, so hopefully the storms will hold off or remain in rural areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSWx Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Lots of graduation ceremonies this weekend. I noticed Wichita mentioned it in their AFD this afternoon, and I know Joplin's is Sunday, so hopefully the storms will hold off or remain in rural areas. Didn't the Joplin tornado hit during graduation weekend for a lot of high schools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srain Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 PUBLIC INFORMATION STATEMENTNATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE FORT WORTH TX844 PM CDT THU MAY 16 2013...NWS DAMAGE SURVEYS FOR 05/15/2013 TORNADO EVENT......16 TORNADOES HAVE NOW BEEN CONFIRMED. ALL SURVEY CREWS HAVERETURNED FOR THE DAY AND SOME OF THEIR INFORMATION HAS BEENINCLUDED IN THIS UPDATE...SO FAR 16 TORNADOES HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED. THE FIRST TORNADOOCCURRED IN MONTAGUE COUNTY AT 538 PM CDT. THE LAST REPORTEDTORNADO WAS AROUND 1210 AM IN ENNIS.THIS INFORMATION IS CONSIDERED PRELIMINARY. SURVEY TEAMS WERESENT TO JOHNSON COUNTY...HOOD COUNTY...PARKER COUNTY...ELLISCOUNTY AND MONTAGUE COUNTY. OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS WE WILLCONTINUE TO COLLECT DATA...TALK WITH EMERGENCY OFFICIALS ANDRESPONDERS...AND EYE WITNESSES...REVIEW RADAR DATA...PICTURES ANDVIDEOS. THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS REPORT IS SUBJECT TO ANDLIKELY WILL CHANGE.AN ADDITIONAL SURVEY TEAM WILL BE SENT TO SURVEY DAMAGE NORTHWESTOF CRESSON IN SOUTHERN PARKER COUNTY ON FRIDAY..TORNADO #1 - BELCHERVILLE/MONTAGUE COUNTY...THIS TORNADO WAS REPORTED ONE MILE WEST OF BELCHERVILLE BY STORMSPOTTERS. NO ADDITIONAL DETAILS ON THIS TORNADO ARE AVAILABLE ATTHIS TIME. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED ON THIS TORNADOLATER..TORNADO #2 - LAKE AMON G. CARTER/MONTAGUE COUNTY...RATING: EF-1ESTIMATED PEAK WIND: 100 MPHINJURIES: 1SURVEY CREWS FOUND FIVE HOMES DAMAGED BY THIS TORNADO SOUTH OF LAKEAMON G. CARTER. FOUR OF THE HOMES WERE SIGNIFICANTLY DAMAGED AND ONEHOME WAS DESTROYED. IN ADDITION...SIGNIFICANT TREE DAMAGE WASREPORTED. ONE MINOR INJURY WAS REPORTED. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILLBE PROVIDED ON THIS TORNADO LATER..TORNADO #3 - ALVORD/WISE COUNTY...THIS TORNADO WAS REPORTED BY THE PUBLIC AND STORM SPOTTERS. NOADDITIONAL DETAILS ON THIS TORNADO ARE AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME.ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED ON THIS TORNADO LATER..TORNADO #4 - MILLSAP/PARKER COUNTY...RATING: EF-1ESTIMATED PEAK WIND: 100 MPHSURVEY CREWS FOUND FIVE HOMES SIGNIFICANTLY DAMAGED BY THIS TORNADO.IN ADDITION...SIGNIFICANT TREE DAMAGE WAS OBSERVED. ADDITIONALINFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED ON THIS TORNADO LATER..TORNADO #5 - GRANBURY/HOOD COUNTY...RATING: EF-4PATH LENGTH /STATUTE/: 2.75 MILESPATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/: 880 YARDS/0.5 MILESFATALITIES: 6INJURIES: DOZENSSIGNIFICANT DAMAGE OCCURRED WITH THIS TORNADO INCLUDING HOMES WIPEDCLEAR OFF THE FOUNDATION. TWO HOMES SUFFERED EF-4 MAGNITUDE DAMAGEAND SEVERAL MORE SUFFERED EF-3 MAGNITUDE DAMAGE. ADDITIONALINFORMATION ON THIS TORNADO WILL BE PROVIDED LATER..TORNADO #6 - PECAN PLANTATION/HOOD COUNTY...RATING: EF-1ESTIMATED PEAK WIND: 90-100 MPHSURVEY CREWS FOUND AN ADDITIONAL DAMAGE PATH SEPARATE FROM TORNADO#5 THAT AFFECTED GRANBURY. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THIS TORNADOWILL BE PROVIDED LATER..TORNADO #7 - WEST OF ANNETTA SOUTH/PARKER COUNTY...SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE WAS REPORTED ALONG TIN TOP ROAD BY EMERGENCYOFFICIALS. A SURVEY CREW WILL BE SENT TO THE DAMAGED AREA ONFRIDAY. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THIS TORNADO WILL BE PROVIDEDLATER..TORNADO #8 - CLEBURNE/JOHNSON COUNTY...RATING: EF-3ESTIMATED PEAK WIND: 140 MPHPATH LENGTH /STATUTE/: 8.5 MILESPATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/: 1060 YARDS/0.6 MILESSIGNIFICANT DAMAGE OCCURRED WITH THIS STRONG TORNADO. DOZENS OFHOMES WERE DAMAGED AND AT LEAST 3 OR 4 HOMES SUFFERED EF-3MAGNITUDE DAMAGE. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED ON THISTORNADO LATER..TORNADO #9 - 6 ESE CLEBURNE/JOHNSON COUNTY...RATING: EF-0ESTIMATED PEAK WIND: 85 MPHSURVEY CREWS FOUND AN ADDITIONAL DAMAGE PATH SEPARATE FROM TORNADO#8. DAMAGE WITH THIS TORNADO WAS MOSTLY TO TREES BUT 5MANUFACTURED HOMES ALSO SUFFERED ROOF DAMAGE. ADDITIONALINFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED ON THIS TORNADO LATER..TORNADO #10 - MILLS COUNTY...THIS BRIEF TORNADO WAS REPORTED BY STORM SPOTTERS. NO ADDITIONALDETAILS ON THIS TORNADO ARE AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME. ADDITIONALINFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED ON THIS TORNADO LATER..TORNADOES #11 AND #12- NORTH OF EVANT/HAMILTON COUNTY...VIDEO FOOTAGE SHOWED 2 BRIEF TORNADOES OCCURRED SIMULTANEOUSLYAPPROXIMATELY 2 MILES NORTH OF EVANT. NO ADDITIONAL DETAILS ONTHESE TORNADOES ARE AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME. ADDITIONAL INFORMATIONWILL BE PROVIDED LATER..TORNADO #13 - ENNIS/ELLIS COUNTY...RATING: EF-1ESTIMATED PEAK WIND: 90 MPHPATH LENGTH /STATUE/: APPROXIMATELY 6 MILESSIGNIFICANT DAMAGE OCCURRED IN ENNIS WITH THIS TORNADO. THE TORNADOBEGAN NEAR CLAY STREET AND ENNIS AVENUE. THE TORNADO TRAVELED EASTFROM THERE AND CROSSED INTERSTATE 45 SOUTH OF ENNIS AVENUE.ACCORDING TO PRELIMINARY INFORMATION FROM LOCAL OFFICIALS...17HOMES WERE DAMAGED WITH 4 HOMES LEFT INHABITABLE. A TOTAL OF 55COMMERCIAL PROPERTIES WERE DAMAGED WITH 20 OF THOSE PROPERTIESSUFFERING SEVERE DAMAGE. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDEDON THIS TORNADO LATER..TORNADO #14 - SE OF MINERAL WELLS/PALO PINTO COUNTY...RATING: EF-0START DATE: 05/15/2013START TIME: 6:41 PM CDTSTART LOCATION: APPROXIMATELY 3.5 MILES SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF MINERAL WELLSEND DATE: 05/15/2013END TIME: 6:42 PM CDTEND LOCATION: APPROXIMATELY 3.5 MILES SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF MINERAL WELLSOFF DUTY NWS METEOROLOGISTS PHOTOGRAPHED A TORNADO APPROXIMATELY3.5 MILES SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF MINERAL WELLS OR 4 MILES NORTHWEST OFMILLSAP. THIS TORNADO IS SEPARATE FROM THE MILLSAP TORNADO. SO FARNO DAMAGE HAS BEEN REPORTED FROM THIS BRIEF TORNADO..TORNADO #15 - E OF MILLSAP/PARKER COUNTY...RATING: EF-0START DATE: 05/15/2013START TIME: 7:22 PM CDTSTART LOCATION: APPROXIMATELY 3 MILES EAST OF MILLSAPEND DATE: 05/15/2013END TIME: 7:25 PM CDTEND LOCATION: APPROXIMATELY 3 MILES EAST OF MILLSAPOFF DUTY NWS METEOROLOGISTS PHOTOGRAPHED A TORNADO APPROXIMATELY3 MILES EAST OF MILLSAP. THIS TORNADO IS SEPARATE FROM THE MILLSAPTORNADO. SO FAR NO DAMAGE HAS BEEN REPORTED FROM THIS TORNADO..TORNADO #16 - NOCONA LAKE/MONTAGUE COUNTY...THIS TORNADO WAS REPORTED NEAR NOCONA LAKE BY STORM SPOTTERS.PICTURES OF THIS TORNADO WERE ALSO OBTAINED. SOME DAMAGE HAS BEENREPORTED WITH THIS TORNADO BUT NO ADDITIONAL DETAILS ARE AVAILABLEAT THIS TIME. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THIS TORNADO WILL BEPROVIDED LATER.EF SCALE: THE ENHANCED FUJITA SCALE CLASSIFIES TORNADOES INTO THEFOLLOWING CATEGORIES.EF0...WEAK......65 TO 85 MPHEF1...WEAK......86 TO 110 MPHEF2...STRONG....111 TO 135 MPHEF3...STRONG....136 TO 165 MPHEF4...VIOLENT...166 TO 200 MPHEF5...VIOLENT...>200 MPHNOTE:THE INFORMATION IN THIS STATEMENT IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TOCHANGE PENDING FINAL REVIEW OF THE EVENT AND PUBLICATION INNWS STORM DATA.$$JLDUNN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Didn't the Joplin tornado hit during graduation weekend for a lot of high schools? Probably, May 22nd is the end of the school year. It hit about an hour or so after Joplin's graduation. A lot of people gathered in one place not really paying attention to the weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo762 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Probably, May 22nd is the end of the school year. It hit about an hour or so after Joplin's graduation. A lot of people gathered in one place not really paying attention to the weather. ICT brought that up at the end of their AFD saying about how potentially dangerous this could be with numerous outdoor activities taking place on Sunday, especially graduation parties. I would hope that the local news advises people to pay special attention to the weather conditions on Sunday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Seriously, I don't want to see posts referencing tornado events that resulted in fatalities and demolished towns as "appetizers". Keep the discussion meteorological, if you have nothing to add, then read more and post less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettjrob Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 The NAM continues to look abysmal for Sunday. Even surface winds veer out along the DL, nevermind H85. The primary vort max swings through around 18z, pushing off into IA by late afternoon, where shear profiles are totally whacked. Without rapid secondary cyclogenesis in NW OK/SC KS, I think the day may well disappoint many chasers, given the rather extreme level of hype that's been drummed up already. At this point, I'm just not buying the GFS solution, given its very poor performance so far this season. Saturday's conditional potential in NW KS into NE CO is starting to look more and more tempting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 The NAM continues to look abysmal for Sunday. Even surface winds veer out along the DL, nevermind H85. The primary vort max swings through around 18z, pushing off into IA by late afternoon, where shear profiles are totally whacked. Without rapid secondary cyclogenesis in NW OK/SC KS, I think the day may well disappoint many chasers, given the rather extreme level of hype that's been drummed up already. At this point, I'm just not buying the GFS solution, given its very poor performance so far this season. Saturday's conditional potential in NW KS into NE CO is starting to look more and more tempting... Using the NAM at 72 hours out is a bit iffy man, I mean it has had poor performance at that range for years... Plus I wouldn't chase a conditional setup with the setup the next day having a much higher ceiling, because you'll be kicking yourself if the conditional setup busts and you are out of place for the better one that doesn't bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo762 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Seriously, I don't want to see posts referencing tornado events that resulted in fatalities and demolished towns as "appetizers". Keep the discussion meteorological, if you have nothing to add, then read more and post less. Bad wording.... I was talking for severe weather, never mind the fact that they caused damage. It was meteorological speaking... severe weather? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUGrad05 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 The NAM continues to look abysmal for Sunday. Even surface winds veer out along the DL, nevermind H85. The primary vort max swings through around 18z, pushing off into IA by late afternoon, where shear profiles are totally whacked. Without rapid secondary cyclogenesis in NW OK/SC KS, I think the day may well disappoint many chasers, given the rather extreme level of hype that's been drummed up already. At this point, I'm just not buying the GFS solution, given its very poor performance so far this season. Saturday's conditional potential in NW KS into NE CO is starting to look more and more tempting... This is an example of why I have a tough time getting excited so far in advance. But yeah you raise a good point the GFS performance this year, at least in the plains has been pretty poor. HOWEVER, this year has not been normal, this current setup is a more typical setup, which the GFS seems to nail a few days out a bit better than the NAM. When we get within 48hrs we'll see what things look like...ie late tomorrow and saturday morning. I just have trouble using the NAM against numerous other models at day 3/4...day 1/2 is different. Not sure I'd throw in the towel yet. I'm interested to see if SPC goes day3 slight or day3 MDT. Given the year slight wouldn't surprise me...despite this being the best setup of the year thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettjrob Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Using the NAM at 72 hours out is a bit iffy man, I mean it has had poor performance at that range for years... Plus I wouldn't chase a conditional setup with the setup the next day having a much higher ceiling, because you'll be kicking yourself if the conditional setup busts and you are out of place for the better one that doesn't bust. I feel like we already went through this song and dance several times back in April. Everyone mocks the NAM outside its supposed 24-36 hour range, only for it to mop the floor with the GFS even at 60-72. The only thing I'll concede is that this setup doesn't involve cold air behind a sagging boundary, which is where the GFS really falls apart. Regardless, a ECMWF/GGEM/UKMET blend would appear to be closer to the NAM than GFS right now, anyway. If the NAM stood alone I'd be less concerned. As for Sat vs. Sun, I think the distance between the two targets is manageable, should we get initiation near the sfc low in NE CO/NW KS. Imagine many will be out for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I feel like we already went through this song and dance several times back in April. Everyone mocks the NAM outside its supposed 24-36 hour range, only for it to mop the floor with the GFS even at 60-72. The only thing I'll concede is that this setup doesn't involve cold air behind a sagging boundary, which is where the GFS really falls apart. Regardless, a ECMWF/GGEM/UKMET blend would appear to be closer to the NAM than GFS right now, anyway. If the NAM stood alone I'd be less concerned. These are not comparable setups other than the location, that is it. There is no reason to be comparing the 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 One of my biggest concerns is just how complicated reaching potential is. But, at this range--and knowing it can do well--I wouldn't kick the can because of the NAM. I'll admit to not having followed prior setups nearly as closely, though the more complex something gets the less I'm willing to totally buy the NAM in evolution the deeper you get into range. At the same time, probably shouldn't run to the top end this far out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 This is an example of why I have a tough time getting excited so far in advance. But yeah you raise a good point the GFS performance this year, at least in the plains has been pretty poor. HOWEVER, this year has not been normal, this current setup is a more typical setup, which the GFS seems to nail a few days out a bit better than the NAM. When we get within 48hrs we'll see what things look like...ie late tomorrow and saturday morning. I just have trouble using the NAM against numerous other models at day 3/4...day 1/2 is different. Not sure I'd throw in the towel yet. I'm interested to see if SPC goes day3 slight or day3 MDT. Given the year slight wouldn't surprise me...despite this being the best setup of the year thus far. Agreed with bold. NAM has some key advantages in certain situations (we saw that with the last "busted" day 3 Mod), but situations like this the NAM has far less utility (wave propagation/ejections/phasing/etc., especially when the feature is still partly off coast). What will likely happen is something down the middle of the disparate solutions. It is fascinating to see how the various models eject and deepen the shortwave trough as it ejects the plains....with the GFS far more aggressive deepening that secondary lee low behind the leading shortwave tracking into the N Plains. I am, however, skeptical of the GFS verbatim. I would be honestly surprised if SPC went Day 3 Mod again...with quite a bit of uncertainty clouding the scenario once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Reading the last 5-6 posts is awesome, btw. Love seeing the biases of other mets/non-mets in their interpretations, the different ways we all look at and interpret weather, etc. Great stuff (and yes, I am serious). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Reading the last 5-6 posts is awesome, btw. Love seeing the biases of other mets/non-mets in their interpretations, they different ways we all look at weather, etc. Great stuff (and yes, I am serious). Brett's a storm snob, but I'd still rather have him be amped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundersnow12 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Our 1st and 3rd tornadoes yesterday near Weatherford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Brett's a storm snob, but I'd still rather have him be amped up. I was referencing you as well And myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Our 1st and 3rd tornadoes yesterday near Weatherford victor pic.jpg Great stuff, and great call on that event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Storm Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Our 1st and 3rd tornadoes yesterday near Weatherford victor pic.jpg Awesome motion in that vid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUGrad05 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I would be honestly surprised if SPC went Day 3 Mod again...with quite a bit of uncertainty clouding the scenario once again. I agree, I would be surprised if we see a day3 Mod. Just don't see it happening but I could be surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radtechwxman Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 The NAM continues to look abysmal for Sunday. Even surface winds veer out along the DL, nevermind H85. The primary vort max swings through around 18z, pushing off into IA by late afternoon, where shear profiles are totally whacked. Without rapid secondary cyclogenesis in NW OK/SC KS, I think the day may well disappoint many chasers, given the rather extreme level of hype that's been drummed up already. At this point, I'm just not buying the GFS solution, given its very poor performance so far this season. Saturday's conditional potential in NW KS into NE CO is starting to look more and more tempting... that is one model though and it is just now coming into range of the best potential outbreak days. not saying i am hugging any one model b/c i am not at this time but it is far too early to be making calls. models are going to be their little tweaks all the way up to the event. have to wait for a consensus. model agreement still is up in the air. the trough is just now coming onshore tonight so upper air network should get a good sampling. esp tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Our 1st and 3rd tornadoes yesterday near Weatherford victor pic.jpg Very nice stuff here man, hopefully more to come from you guys this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I was referencing you as well And myself. It's almost always wise to be pessimistic. Though I did text Katie yesterday that one day could high risk. Weeniecast. I'm just happy there will be storms.. and will try to forget our last two straight drives ended up in busts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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