The 'oh, who cares' 1st half of May boring ass pattern banter thread

[Ginx snewx]

nobody lives on an airport

[CT Rain]

nobody lives on an airport

And?

[CT Rain]

Every new day is the best day ever, that's how I live my life!

Viva la spring

Viva la life

Viva la viva

Almost miller time another perfect weekend!!!!!!

Doomy gloomy scooty

Lol you need to chill buddy

[joey2002]

nobody lives on an airport

 

Ever seen The Terminal movie?  lol

[joey2002]

Storm chasing booked. Flying to DEN on 6/8!

 

I wonder if we'll get a tornado in CT around then... there seems to be a correlation with outbreaks when you're away. 

 

(dating back to when you were on Cape Cod during the '89 tornado outbreak lol)

[snowman21]

The ASOS sensors are much more accurate with dew readings than the home stations anyways. The home sensors work very well for the money though. The Davis hygrometer has an accuracy of +/- 3% from 0-90% and +/- 4% from 90-100%. A high end Vaisala HMP155 with HUMICAP technology is +/- 1.0% and 1.7% for those ranges respectively.

I belive the ASOS sensors still use a chilled mirror sensor. Also, just like temp, the use a 5 min running average to determine the dewpoint each minute so random spikes will get washed out.

 

The chilled mirrors were replaced a long time ago as they required too much maintenance. They use the Vaisala DTS1 sensor now which uses an older generation of the HUMICAP 180 found in the HMP155s. The DTS1 was operationally accepted in 2002 and scheduled for installation from 2003-06, though may have taken longer to get all 900+ ASOS sites set up. I believe ASOS also uses the Vaisala ice-free ultrasonic wind sensor (~$13k), lightning/thunderstorm detector (~$19k), LEDWI (~$15k), and CL31 ceilometer (~$23k). The government probably gets a bulk discount of a couple thousand off each sensor. The all-weather precipitation weighing gauges are Ott Pluvio 400s which will run you about $4,000 at last check, and the freezing rain sensors are provided by Goodrich (formerly Rosemount Aerospace) and go for roughly $7k and $15k for the industrial version that can withstand heavier ice accretion. The pressure sensors are probably $1-2k each, and ASOS generally has three of them for redundancy and cross-checking since it's such a critical component to air traffic safety. Anyone can do the math, but by the time you're done with getting all the sensors, hardware, programming, site preparation, installation, and so on, you're well into the six figures for a single site, never mind if additional airfield ceilometers and RVR sensors are installed along different runways at larger airports where conditions may vary from runway to runway.

[ORH_wxman]

That's Kevin's argument and that's fine except if you use it in the right context. A 70F dew point in your backyard isn't particularly muggy. A 78 or 79F dew point would be muggy and would probably correspond to a 71 of 72F dew point at KISP.

 

Same thing if you use it for winds. Sandy produced wind gusts over 80 mph at KISP and 60 mph at your local MADIS. Neither reading is incorrect but you can't really compare the 2 numbers since they're apples and oranges.

 

 

Yeah context is key. When there's a dewpoint of 60F at BDL, ORH, and IJD and Kevin says his davis is reading 70F and that means its stifling out...then thats misleading. Usually those home stations are in the mid to upper 70s when we approach 70F at the ASOS stations as you said. I've seen some of the home stations even crack 80F when the ASOS stations creep up to like 71-72F.

[dendrite]

The chilled mirrors were replaced a long time ago as they required too much maintenance. They use the Vaisala DTS1 sensor now which uses an older generation of the HUMICAP 180 found in the HMP155s. The DTS1 was operationally accepted in 2002 and scheduled for installation from 2003-06, though may have taken longer to get all 900+ ASOS sites set up. I believe ASOS also uses the Vaisala ice-free ultrasonic wind sensor (~$13k), lightning/thunderstorm detector (~$19k), LEDWI (~$15k), and CL31 ceilometer (~$23k). The government probably gets a bulk discount of a couple thousand off each sensor. The all-weather precipitation weighing gauges are Ott Pluvio 400s which will run you about $4,000 at last check, and the freezing rain sensors are provided by Goodrich (formerly Rosemount Aerospace) and go for roughly $7k and $15k for the industrial version that can withstand heavier ice accretion. The pressure sensors are probably $1-2k each, and ASOS generally has three of them for redundancy and cross-checking since it's such a critical component to air traffic safety. Anyone can do the math, but by the time you're done with getting all the sensors, hardware, programming, site preparation, installation, and so on, you're well into the six figures for a single site, never mind if additional airfield ceilometers and RVR sensors are installed along different runways at larger airports where conditions may vary from runway to runway.

Cool...thanks. Wasn't sure if the chilled mirrors were phased out yet.

 

What's the deal with the 25kft ceilometers and the PL/GR sensors? Are they ever going to be fully rolled out to all sites?

[CoastalWx]

And?

Yeah exactly. The reasons outlined above are why these ASOS stations properly evaluate the atmosphere rather than a sprinkler tainted PWS. 200 yard slab of asphault isn't going to lower dews by 10 degrees.

[snowman21]

Cool...thanks. Wasn't sure if the chilled mirrors were phased out yet.

 

What's the deal with the 25kft ceilometers and the PL/GR sensors? Are they ever going to be fully rolled out to all sites?

Not sure on the PL/GR sensors. Your guess is as good as mine. They've existed for some time now (>5 years) and it would seem to be a no-brainer to fix a lot of the UPs in automated obs. I know OSI makes one as a $3k add-on to their $7k present weather sensor and claim it gets the ice pellets obs right about 90% of the time. Would be very useful to have along coastal areas in the winter where changeovers and mixed precipitation is common as coastal fronts meander back and forth during a nor'easter, and also to confirm dual-pol radar correlation coefficient obs. The PL sensors are probably in the same class as snow depth sensors -- nice to have but not a necessity for air traffic safety especially when you have people in the tower augmenting obs (for now).

 

As far as the 25kft ceilometers, I thought they were done with that program now? You can pull the docs off the NWS site as far as deployment plans and dates go, but I guess you never know if they've actually installed them. I heard that even though they are installed the data is not making it into the metars. The data is only available internally to the NWS and perhaps the airport. The CL31 is old news now as the CL51s are available which can measure cloud layers to 43kft according to the spec sheet. The Vaisala ceilometers have a nice algo that can detect CBs automatically.

[Mr Torchey]

Man my wife rocks, just got home from work and she surprised me by staining the entire deck since she knew I had to work all weekend.

 

 

VIVA LA WIFEY

 

cirrus deck

68

 

Have a great weekend everyone:)

[scoob40]

You got to 84 yesterday????!!!!! I got to 73.8 and thought that was hot.

Today, managed 64.9. Pretty cool with the strong breeze again. Shawls for everybody.

Made it to 72 today here at mi casa off 12 from jesterday. Actually was 83.6 but that's 84 by the rules I guess.

[HoarfrostHubb]

Made it to 72 today here at mi casa off 12 from jesterday. Actually was 83.6 but that's 84 by the rules I guess.

76.6F here yesterday. Back to 65.5F today for the high.

Wawa still has a little man made snow...

Just bought a new pool for the kiddos today. That is my task for Sunday. Hope all is well with you Scoobs

[Mr Torchey]

Hey now@

 

 

Okx says taste 71 tomorrow.....san diego sunshine sunsation............best spring ever over and over

[Damage In Tolland]

My dew argument has finally been validated. You all except for Scooter ,said exactly what I've been arguing the last few years. That is exactly what I have been saying .

[Ginx snewx]

And?

does not make people's home stations wrong, lots of times the places where people actually live surrounded by vegetation it is more humid. Just because an ASOS has a lower dew is not a reason to discount home stations. I have seen many posts where people question folks obs by referencing ASOS sites.

[ORH_wxman]

My dew argument has finally been validated. You all except for Scooter ,said exactly what I've been arguing the last few years. That is exactly what I have been saying .

 

No it isnt.

[Mr Torchey]

Major kudos to wx hype............he argued 70s this weekend..........we got it

 

He argued dry warm sunny days cool nights memorial day looks like we are going to get it.....he has been spot on.

 

Just sayin' and never mind the torch in the suspect spots yesterday due to deep deep deep mixing.........viva la wx hype

[Damage In Tolland]

No it isnt.

Yes it is. My argument has always been that home stations are accurate and representative of their areas. The tarmacs are representative of theirs. You argued vehemently against it and now admit it

[Mr Torchey]

spring summer time blocking rules

[dendrite]

does not make people's home stations wrong, lots of times the places where people actually live surrounded by vegetation it is more humid. Just because an ASOS has a lower dew is not a reason to discount home stations. I have seen many posts where people question folks obs by referencing ASOS sites.

That's fine as long as we agree that the home stations aren't properly sited. You can use the same argument for wind. An anemometer surrounded by 100ft pines will be lucky to record 10mph. It's technically "real", but doesn't fit the standards for proper siting. In order to be able to compare the weather and climate of different sites you need to have all of them on the same playing field.

[ORH_wxman]

Yes it is. My argument has always been that home stations are accurate and representative of their areas. The tarmacs are representative of theirs. You argued vehemently against it and now admit it

 

 

No I have always argued that the PWS's are not representative of the larger scale boundary conditions and that is exactly what we all just talked about..so its good you agree finally. You've taken the dewpoints out of context many times when we claimed the air didn't have enough juice to it.

[Mr Torchey]

Any severe chances on the horizon?

[Damage In Tolland]

No I have always argued that the PWS's are not representative of the larger scale boundary conditions and that is exactly what we all just talked about..so its good you agree finally. You've taken the dewpoints out of context many times when we claimed the air didn't have enough juice to it.

So entire rural areas like NE Ct. Into NW Ri. If all the home stations are reading 73 -75 dews that means that is representative over a large area and then maybe PVD is 70

[dendrite]

So entire rural areas like NE Ct. Into NW Ri. If all the home stations are reading 73 -75 dews that means that is representative over a large area and then maybe PVD is 70

We need to remember this every time you're expecting severe damaging winds when the truth is your Davis is probably recording 25mph and it knocked a hollow branch off of a dead pine tree.

[ORH_wxman]

So entire rural areas like NE Ct. Into NW Ri. If all the home stations are reading 73 -75 dews that means that is representative over a large area and then maybe PVD is 70

 

 

I don't think you are understanding the argument at all. When you are saying "wow, a 71F dewpoint here...SWAMPAZZ" or whatever, you are not the equivalent of a 71F dew at BDL...its like a 62F dew there or thereabouts. Your 71 dew is inflated relative to ASOS standards so its really not that impressive. When BDL has a 71 dew, yours will be in the upper 70s and pushing 80F...that's when its impressive.

 

Dews will be inherently high where BL mixing is lacking like under tree canopies where plenty of undergrowth is aiding in ET. But they don't represent the larger scale boundary mixing atmosphere. 20-30 feet up the dew will probably be 10F cooler.

 

We use the dewpoints mainly for 2 things in the warm season...to discuss surface instability or to discuss comfort level. Our scales for dewpoints are based on ASOS which are properly sited stations. So you saying a 70F dew is wow is not like saying a 70 dew is wow for BDL or ORH or IJD.

 

An extreme example to get the point across is being impressed with a 60 knot wind gust at MWN. Yeah that's nice, but its sited on top of a 6200 foot mountain...its not that impressive for MWN to get a 60 knot gust like it would be for all the other stations sited in vastly different conditions. A dewpoint of 70F in an inproperly sited home station is apples to the ASOS oranges. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this is why we aren't all excited when a bunch of home stations have a dewpoint over 70F+ when BDL, ORH, and IJD are all sitting at 63-64F during a potential severe wx setup. We know that our surface instability as we measure them compared to historical setups is done with the properly sited ASOS stations.

[snowman21]

Home weather stations also suffer from sensor contamination which is most pronounced on a humidity sensor. An impurity on a humidity sensor means a condensation surface right on the sensor itself thus increasing the indicated humidity. High end humidity sensors are heated which allows them to 'burn off' contamination and shut off condensation that artificially increases humidity. Notice how home stations sit at 100% humidity until 9, 10 AM? That's partly due to siting, and partly due to the sensors having nuclei stuck on them that continue to condense or maintain a wet surface very close to the sensor.

[Damage In Tolland]

I don't think you are understanding the argument at all. When you are saying "wow, a 71F dewpoint here...SWAMPAZZ" or whatever, you are not the equivalent of a 71F dew at BDL...its like a 62F dew there or thereabouts. Your 71 dew is inflated relative to ASOS standards so its really not that impressive. When BDL has a 71 dew, yours will be in the upper 70s and pushing 80F...that's when its impressive.

Dews will be inherently high where BL mixing is lacking like under tree canopies where plenty of undergrowth is aiding in ET. But they don't represent the larger scale boundary mixing atmosphere. 20-30 feet up the dew will probably be 10F cooler.

We use the dewpoints mainly for 2 things in the warm season...to discuss surface instability or to discuss comfort level. Our scales for dewpoints are based on ASOS which are properly sited stations. So you saying a 70F dew is wow is not like saying a 70 dew is wow for BDL or ORH or IJD.

An extreme example to get the point across is being impressed with a 60 knot wind gust at MWN. Yeah that's nice, but its sited on top of a 6200 foot mountain...its not that impressive for MWN to get a 60 knot gust like it would be for all the other stations sited in vastly different conditions. A dewpoint of 70F in an inproperly sited home station is apples to the ASOS oranges. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this is why we aren't all excited when a bunch of home stations have a dewpoint over 70F+ when BDL, ORH, and IJD are all sitting at 63-64F during a potential severe wx setup. We know that our surface instability as we measure them compared to historical setups is done with the properly sited ASOS stations.

It's you that are not following...My argument has always been the dew on the home stations is refelctive of that area, that neighborhood, that environment. last summer you argued that the sensors were high and that the dew was not 75 over the whole area. The dews at the ASOS are also accurate and representative of that area, that environment. It's all relative. Each sensor whether it's home or ASOS is reflecting it's environment. Move the ASOS station to MBY or Ryan's and the dews would be higher. Move ours to the tarmacs and ours would lower. That is and always has been the argument..and you said it's not true..Then tonight you agreed

[snowman21]

It's you that are not following...My argument has always been the dew on the home stations is refelctive of that area, that neighborhood, that environment. last summer you argued that the sensors were high and that the dew was not 75 over the whole area. The dews at the ASOS are also accurate and representative of that area, that environment. It's all relative. Each sensor whether it's home or ASOS is reflecting it's environment. Move the ASOS station to MBY or Ryan's and the dews would be higher. Move ours to the tarmacs and ours would lower. That is and always has been the argument..and you said it's not true..Then tonight you agreed

Do you really believe that your back yard is representative of the boundary layer? This is where proper siting becomes meaningful, and the airports have it in spades.

[ORH_wxman]

It's you that are not following...My argument has always been the dew on the home stations is refelctive of that area, that neighborhood, that environment. last summer you argued that the sensors were high and that the dew was not 75 over the whole area. The dews at the ASOS are also accurate and representative of that area, that environment. It's all relative. Each sensor whether it's home or ASOS is reflecting it's environment. Move the ASOS station to MBY or Ryan's and the dews would be higher. Move ours to the tarmacs and ours would lower. That is and always has been the argument..and you said it's not true..Then tonight you agreed

 

 

No I said they don't represent the conditions as in the boundary conditions...you took the dewpoints out of context. If you had used your home station dewpoint in correct context, the issue would have never arose and I would have agreed that the reading is usually "correct"...but its not representative in the way you wanted to portray it. You were saying how impressive the dewpoints were on one of those days when it was in the mid 60s at the ASOS stations. That isn't that impressive or anomalous.

 

 

You don't poo-poo a severe storm that knocks some solid branches down even if your Davis only records a 33mph wind gust. The reason is because you know that wasn't representative of how we normally measure winds. In the same spirit, we don't calibrate our dewpoints to home stations which is why we aren't impressed when home stations have a 70F dewpoint when the ASOS stations are 8F cooler.